Poll : Purchase with/without rebates/incentives

[jhm614]

With the Federal Tax Credit, the LEAF is at the top of my budget. Without the Tax Credit, I would not be able to consider the LEAF.

 

[ttweed]

Without the incentives, I would have thought much longer about converting my wife's '91 Miata to an EV instead of buying a new vehicle. With all the incentives, it made a lot less sense to spend a bunch of money on a homemade conversion vs. a major manufacturer-designed and built product with a warranty and dealer network w/ service/parts availability.

TT

 

[DaveNagy]

I absolutely would not have ordered my Leaf, were it not for the the two incentives available to us Californians. In fact, if the California rebate fund runs out before my car is delivered, I will walk away from the deal without a second thought.

 

[SilverLeaf]

I also fall into the no purchase without Federal Tax Credit.

Sorry, but for me the MSRP is just too high for this vehicle, without the credit.

 

[Gonewild]

I absolutely would not have ordered my Leaf, were it not for the the two incentives available to us Californians. In fact, if the California rebate fund runs out before my car is delivered, I will walk away from the deal without a second thought.

Boy it should would be nice to have the extra $5,000 of the car but I to would have had to think for awhile. I not sure but I maybe bought anyways.

At least in AZ we do not pay almost nothing for licence to drive and EV

 

[evnow]

I've updated the thread with a poll. Pls vote.

 

[Randmac]

I would still buy without financial incentives because HOV lane access is more important to me.

 

[evnow]

I would still buy without financial incentives because HOV lane access is more important to me.

That is still an incentive.

I had decided my cutoff to be 30K. Leaf is a little over that - so I'd have probably still got it.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

Without the incentives, I would have thought much longer about converting my wife's '91 Miata to an EV instead of buying a new vehicle.

Ooohhhh.. now there's a cool thought. An all-EV Miata!
Rear-wheel drive, lightweight convertible.. it'd be like an affordable/maintainable Tesla Roadster.

 

[LakeLeaf]

The Prius has a base price of $39990 plus on road costs of around $3500 for dealer delivery and registration etc. This is in AUD which these days is usually 1:1 to USD.

Ouch! That's twice the price we paid for our 2010 Prius.

Is the Prius worth that much there?

What kind of MPG's do you get with TDI's there? (i.e. how stringent are the emission standards - like Europe or like California?)

 

[LEAFer]

And what do you pay per gallon/liter ?

 

[planet4ever]

Honestly, I'm not sure whether I would have gotten it or not without any subsidies. I'm certainly prepared to forgo the CA rebate, though I expect I'll probably get it, eventually if not immediately. Without the federal credit it would have been a very tough sell to my wife, who is already reluctant to buy a car that "can't go very far." But I finally marked that I would get it anyway, because I really, really, really want a freeway-capable electric car. For me, it's all about not burning oil.

 

[DownUnderLeaf]

The Prius has a base price of $39990 plus on road costs of around $3500 for dealer delivery and registration etc. This is in AUD which these days is usually 1:1 to USD.

Ouch! That's twice the price we paid for our 2010 Prius.

Is the Prius worth that much there?

What kind of MPG's do you get with TDI's there? (i.e. how stringent are the emission standards - like Europe or like California?)

Ha! My Australian mind set reply to that: What are emission standards? LOL

We have no standards like that. Its very disappointing.

 

[AndyH]

With no Texas rebates, and no significant Federal tax liability, it's not a hypothetical question for me.

edit...
Folks, you've posted some very nicely thought-out opinions on both sides. Great group!

In my case, Texas doesn't have rebates or carpool lanes or stickers. The DMV cannot even properly register an EV because there's no electric 'engine' choice in the database. My electric motorcycle is registered as a gas bike with an equivalent engine size...and I had to do the engine size to kW research so we could fudge the engine displacement number. I'm a disabled veteran, so I get $4.00 license plates - that's as close to an EV incentive I'm likely to get from the State. :lol:

I almost bought one of three different Ranger EVs or one of two Electricar Prisms. The goal was to replace the lead acid with lithium. When complete, I'd have a 15+ year old vehicle with a ~60 mile range, a hacked pack management system, and I'd not only be my own 'warranty', I'd be on my own for fabricating new parts when something broke since the electrics are out of production. I couldn't get financing for the vehicles because these early vehicles don't have production EV VINs. And in the end, they would have cost close to the price of a Leaf without incentives.

As for the mythical return on investment... Nothing is an investment unless it puts money in my pocket - and that means any car I buy is a depreciating liability. Since it's not an 'investment' there can be no ROI. I can positively influence the cost per mile by taking advantage of deductible mileage for business and other travel, but this vehicle will cost me money over time. But it'll cost me less per mile today compared with my old diesel beast, and it'll save more as fuel prices continue to rise.

Try to put a dollar value on disconnecting from the gas pump, an always full 'tank', the peace and quiet, not contributing to urban smog or adding to my friends' asthma attacks... That's much more valuable. Not to mention the value of the daily example to my 8-year-old son that there is another way. I hope this Leaf will be his first car.

Andy

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i still would have done it but it would have cost me more money in a lot of different ways. i would not have leased for one thing. i sold my Zenn so had $4000 from it. would have sold or traded the Prius , plus the 10,000 down so my payments would have been manageable.

but i have waited too long to let something like price get in the way. the only reason i leased was because of timing and that i would not get the full $7500 tax credit. despite paying an extra $2000 for unfavorable lease terms, i still came out ahead.

right now i am saving better than 3 cents per mile driven on the Leaf over my 53 mpg Prius. that is with gas at $3.12. well we all know that that is a "good" price that will not last.

the only real question; will gas go back down to near $3.00 after this spike? general consensus says no. so payback for just gas cost (not counting additional maintenance the Prius requires that the Leaf does not) is what??

well, i guess we have to figure out exactly what we are paying back?

the Leaf all said and done will cost me $31,200 or so. i cannot pay the lease off early. so when i sell the Prius, i will bank the money to put towards the payoff at the end of the lease term.

so back to what am i paying off? well, the 2010 Prius would have been significantly more money if i had not been part of the Priority Purchase Program. out the door price on it was $28,500. if paying MSRP with taxes (no sales tax on it either) i would have paid an addtional $5500. but lets just talk what actually happened.

so if paying off the difference of $2700 i could do that at 3 cents per mile and 15,000 miles ($450 per year) that would be 6 years. but if gas went to $4.50 then the payoff would be about 3½ years.

i will be able to track my gas cost since all but a few tanks over the years (had to use alternatives on our Disney trip) were purchased at Costco. interesting that 2010 we purchased $1392.72 in gas for the year (they provide year end summaries)

but to illustrate the differences. i got the 2010 in May of 2009 and it was driven less that 7,000 miles in 2009 (i drove Zenn for commuting) in 2008 we only had the Prius and the Zenn but gas costs for past 3 years

2010; 1392.72
2009; 1092.70
2008; 1648.90 (this is one Prius and the electric Zenn but gas was a "bit" higher)

another thing i have to mention. on my Zenn i drove it 12,500 miles over 3 years. my total electricity cost from Day 1; $212.

now, keep in mind, because of VERY limited range, i plugged in everywhere so that was freebie juice. but there is nothing really stopping me from doing the same thing with the Leaf. i probably wont be doing a lot of that, but i might ocassionally just to show off!!

 

[TomT]

Interesting... So far the poll is running 2 to 1 against purchase without rebates... This is obviously far from a scientific poll but would seem to indicate that EVs are going to be a much harder sell if and when the rebates dry up...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Interesting... So far the poll is running 2 to 1 against purchase without rebates... This is obviously far from a scientific poll but would seem to indicate that EVs are going to be a much harder sell if and when the rebates dry up...

actually the biggest issue against EVs are not the price. its the battery longevity issue. the ideology here is dump a bunch on the market at a reduced cost then let the owners crow about the car. free advertising is basically what Nissan is counting on. the incentives provided only encourage people who are worried about the batteries to buy

 

[sparky]

I would have bought without the rebate. I wanted off of the oil treadmill. I owned an EV back when gas prices spiked and 8 year old Ford Ranger EVs were going for $28-30k. I thought the $34k LEAF price was a bargain because I wasn't comparing it to a regular car, but to the few available EVs.
Without the LEAF, I would have done the Prius Enginer conversion which would have saved me only a few bucks over the LEAF and pretty much achieved my goal.
One thing I'll add, if Nissan hadn't stepped up with the LEAF, the Prius-Enginer conversion option would have kept me from buying a Volt without a rebate.... perhaps even with the rebate.
Also, I suspect without the rebate, Nissan would have leased the battery pack to keep the price in the $26k range. Kind of along the lines of what DaveinOlyWA is saying.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i think this discussion will be laughed at when gas hits $4 a gallon and stays there. in my household even with less than average driving (for 2 drivers) and much greater than average fuel economy we still spent $1400 for gas when it was very unpriced. my average for the year was like $2.70 (after 3% Costco discount) which i dont think we are going to see again.

so anyone else would have been paying probably closer to $3000 and that is going up. all of a sudden, the price is not unreasonable. i am purposely ignoring oil changes since in my 2010 the synthetic changes run $75 a pop.

now remember all this goes back to battery reliability. it would appear to me that is what Nissan is gambling on and they have put hell of a raise on the table. its hard to ignore that much confidence.

 

[TomT]

I think it is going to have to go much higher than that to have a dramatic impact on EV sales. You can buy a very nice high-gas-mileage car for half of what the Leaf costs (and not have to worry about battery life). That difference in price will buy far more gas than the car will burn in its lifetime. And remember, for the vast majority, electricity is not free, so you have to add back in the cost of charging...

i think this discussion will be laughed at when gas hits $4 a gallon and stays there. in my household even with less than average driving (for 2 drivers) and much greater than average fuel economy we still spent $1400 for gas when it was very unpriced. my average for the year was like $2.70 (after 3% Costco discount) which i dont think we are going to see again.