Tesla Supercharger Network

[DaveinOlyWA]

doesn't matter how many Tesla owners you know because you don't know the ones that are abusing the SC network and this is why all this is happening. Tesla Owners brought this on themselves...

Sure it matters.
The implication was that most/all Tesla owners do this.

I'm not saying no Tesla owners do.
I'm just saying it isn't anywhere near the numbers implied.

As a Tesla owner I'm rather happy with the solution, especially if after the 400kWh it costs less than gas.

you illustrate the root problems with interpreting implications because my interpretation is that a few Tesla Owners ruined it for the rest of them but then again, making the "free for life" promise was and is a mistake.

 

[GlennD]

If I paid over 2K for super charger access and had a long range car like the Tesla then for sure I would not charge at home. Tesla has no right to be surprised. I would only charge once a week on their dime.

Granted I am not rich and I will never have a 100K plus car.

 

[Zythryn]

doesn't matter how many Tesla owners you know because you don't know the ones that are abusing the SC network and this is why all this is happening. Tesla Owners brought this on themselves...

Sure it matters.
The implication was that most/all Tesla owners do this.

I'm not saying no Tesla owners do.
I'm just saying it isn't anywhere near the numbers implied.

As a Tesla owner I'm rather happy with the solution, especially if after the 400kWh it costs less than gas.

you illustrate the root problems with interpreting implications because my interpretation is that a few Tesla Owners ruined it for the rest of them but then again, making the "free for life" promise was and is a mistake.

OK, the quote was "typical Tesla owner".
My point is the "typical" Tesla owner doesn't do this.
Instead, as you said, a "few" do this, to which I completely agree.

Unlike you, I don't think the few ruined it for anyone other than the poor guys that were on trips and needed a charge and had to wait.
Similarly, I don't agree that the "free for life" was a mistake.
It was a great marketing tool, and showed that long distance travel is easy in an EV.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The implication was that most/all Tesla owners do this.

No, that was never implied. A percentage of Tesla owners do hog / freeload off the local Supercharger. A simple fact.

You can debate how many that is, but nobody but you claimed or implied that it was "most/all".

 

[Firetruck41]

The implication was that most/all Tesla owners do this.

No, that was never implied. A percentage of Tesla owners to hog / freeload off the local Supercharger. A simple fact.

You can debate how many that is, but nobody buy you claimed or implied that it was "most/all".

Actually lorenfb did, and that is what my earlier reply and probably others were referencing:

Most rational Tesla owners with nearby SC access and available time, e.g. shopping, movie, appointment,
and/or lunch/dinner, will not consider a potential $480/year electric bill savings insignificant and will utilize
the SC network as much as possible for most of their charging needs."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok, we can spend time nitpicking or simply accept the fact that Musk told us last year what the issues were. This change was completely expected at least by me and probably anyone else without T-envy.

It was a great marketing tool but making it free was, is and always will be a mistake.

 

[arnis]

It wasn't free. There was a fee to get access to SC network. And after paying that fee SC network
had to be used only for long distance travel. Whatever travel was ok, but not using the same charger
over and over again.
That money was used to expand SC network and pay for some power. It appears a lot of that went
to just paying for power

Next year demand and SC expansion will be heavily related: more charging = more money to build more.

 

[GRA]

There's no news for anything on I-10 between Casa Grande and Junction, I-80 in Wyoming, or just where on I-76 they'll put one to reach Denver; they could add one more on I-80 well west of Ogallala to reach Denver via Cheyenne (Ogallala - Cheyenne 167 miles, so too much for S60s in winter) as an interim measure, but I imagine there's far more Teslas in the Denver area than around Cheyenne, so I expect they'd opt for I-76 first. Sterling, Fort Morgan and Brush have all been rumored. Sterling's about 88 miles from Ogallala, Brush is 122 which is a bit long uphill in winter for S60s/3s (speed limit 75), and Fort Morgan's 132. From the Denver SC it's 77 miles to Fort Morgan, 87 miles to Brush and 122 miles to Sterling. Brush seems like the best compromise if they're not going to put two SCs on I-76, or one on I-80 in either Big Springs or Julesburg, as I-76 gets considerably steeper after Fort Morgan.

It remains to be seen whether they'll be able to get the ones along I-80/76 finished before winter kicks in and the ground freezes.

Per a post on TMC from Blueshift, the guy who manages supercharge.info, it appears that Tesla is putting an SC in Brush, and maybe another site as well on I-76: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-brush-co.80852/

 

[GRA]

Santa Nella, CA (Tesla's calling it 'Gustine') with 12 stalls, on I-5 at S.R. 33, and near the junction of S.R. 152 is now open, which should help offload Dublin, Fremont, Gilroy, Mountain View, San Mateo and maybe Manteca as well.

 

[GRA]

With the opening of the Birmingham, AL SC on Wednesday, I-20 east of Dallas is initially complete, although a few of the legs exceed 140 miles and require care for S60s in less than ideal conditions.

 

[GRA]

Via IEVS (and our own Tony Williams):

Barstow, CA Tesla Supercharger Vandalized Before Thanksgiving Weekend

http://insideevs.com/barstow-tesla-supercharger-vandalized-thanksgiving-weekend/

. . . The criminals were not just punks on meth randomly destroying things. Whoever did this knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

They broke the locked handles on two separate on the high voltage (480 volt) distribution boxes, then unbolted the covers inside the box that distributed power to every Supercharger. Then, they cut the electric supply wires to EVERY Supercharger with commercial grade tools (they are big cables). All the circuit breakers were also removed. . . .

 

[palmermd]

Via IEVS (and our own Tony Williams):

Barstow, CA Tesla Supercharger Vandalized Before Thanksgiving Weekend

http://insideevs.com/barstow-tesla-supercharger-vandalized-thanksgiving-weekend/

. . . The criminals were not just punks on meth randomly destroying things. Whoever did this knew EXACTLY what they were doing.

They broke the locked handles on two separate on the high voltage (480 volt) distribution boxes, then unbolted the covers inside the box that distributed power to every Supercharger. Then, they cut the electric supply wires to EVERY Supercharger with commercial grade tools (they are big cables). All the circuit breakers were also removed. . . .

Here is an interesting take on the subject.

http://www.thedrive.com/opinion/6172/an-open-letter-to-the-tesla-saboteurs

 

[GRA]

It seems Tesla has been doing a lot of work in stealth mode, as SCs are now known to be under construction (some nearly finished) In Lincoln, Gothenburg, and Ogallala, NE along I-80 west of Council Bluffs, plus Junction, TX on I-10 west of San Antonio. Nothing's known for I-20, although there are reasonably strong rumors for one appearing in Midland. Lincoln to Gothenburg is 193 miles, so presumably they've either got or are looking for a site in between, as that would be problematic even for S85s in winter. As for Junction, it's 238 miles from the Columbus SC, but apparently San Antonio will be getting SCs at the Service Center when that opens.

There's no news for anything on I-10 between Casa Grande and Junction . . . It remains to be seen whether they'll be able to get the ones along I-80/76 finished before winter kicks in and the ground freezes.

Someone on TMC found the gap filler on I-80 in Nebraska under construction in Grand Island, to add to the permit in Brush on I-76, which when finished will complete the route through Denver. Also, the next SC on I-10 west of Junction, TX is under construction in Ozona (90.4 miles). This strongly implies that the next one west will be in Fort Stockton (108 miles), given the required SC spacing, the multiple road junction there, and the lack of other towns in the area.

Also, a stealth SC is nearly complete on California S.R. 41 in Fish Camp, just outside the southwestern entrance to Yosemite, nicely complementing the one also nearly complete on S.R. 120 in Groveland. The question is whether Tesla is also building or has plans to build one on S.R. 140 in the Mariposa - El Portal area, so that all three western entrance routes to Yosemite will have SCs in gateway towns. In any case, Fish Camp will make the trip much easier for people coming up from or heading to SoCal via S.R. 99 and I-5, with less need to rely on the limited number of EVSEs in Yosemite Valley.

 

[scottf200]

Looks like Tesla is changing average distance
between from ~125 miles to ~90 miles!?!?!?!?!

Image: http://i.imgur.com/1TR4gmx.png

 

[GRA]

End of November summary. 10 U.S. SCs opened in November, making 77 for the year and 325 total: Bandon, OR (11/4, completes U.S. 101 in Oregon); Kingsville, TX (11/15, U.S. 77, provides access to Brownsville & McAllen); Columbia, SC (11/15, I-20 & I-77, a stealth site); Gustine, CA (11/16, I-5, improves density on I-5 and also S.R. 152); Springfield, MO (11/16, I-44); Birmingham, AL (11/16, completes I-20 east of DFW); Wausau, WI (11/24, U.S. 51 & S.R. 73); Lincoln, NH (11/24, I-93); Joplin, MO (11/30, completes I-44); Jackson, TN (11/30, I-40, makes trips between Memphis and Nashville possible).

18 U.S. SCs are known to be under construction: Aberdeen, WA; Fremont #2, Groveland, Fish Camp, and Santa Ana, CA; Las Vegas #2, NV; Lima, MT; Loveland, CO; Ogallala, Gothenburg, Grand Island and Lincoln, NE; Ozona and Junction, TX; Clearwater, MN; Memphis, TN; Naples, FL; Tarrytown, NY.

One Canadian SC opened in November: Ft. MacLeod, AB (11/24).

Two Canadian SCs are known to be under construction: Merritt, BC & Oakville, ON.

 

[GRA]

Looks like Tesla is changing average distance
between from ~125 miles to ~90 miles!?!?!?!?!<snip>

125 miles is too long a leg for S60s and Model 3s in some conditions, i.e. 75-80 mph cruise, winter, headwinds, climb, degraded battery, etc. and often requires charging well beyond 80% resulting in slower charge rates, and using more than 70% of the total usable capacity (assuming that most people will want at least a 10% reserve; EV Trip Planner's newish start and end SoC options use 15% as the default end SoC). For example, an S60 @70 mph, 32 deg. with the heat on, zero wind and flat ground is credited by Tesla with a max. range (new battery) of 172 miles. Multiplying that by .7 gives you 120.4 miles of range; multiplying by .65 gives 111.8. Add in any of the above-mentioned conditions and you're looking at 100 miles or less of no-worries range.

 

[arnis]

For those chargers there is no such thing as "bad/cold weather".
And 125 miles in not a lot for 60kWh pack. Tesla's are not like Leafs.
They have BMS that deals with battery much better. There is no
range penalty due to cold battery if you supercharge at least once.
Or preheat the vehicle before long long trip.

I'm pretty sure Tesla had always planned to have Superchargers so that
smaller packs (60-75kWh) should charge at every SC and bigger
packs (85-100kWh) can skip every second charger depending on lifestyle.

 

[GRA]

For those chargers there is no such thing as "bad/cold weather".
And 125 miles in not a lot for 60kWh pack. Tesla's are not like Leafs.
They have BMS that deals with battery much better. There is no
range penalty due to cold battery if you supercharge at least once.
Or preheat the vehicle before long long trip.

We're talking about the cars, not the chargers or the batteries. Denser air and heat/defrost use (along with the other factors I mentioned) reduce range, and Tesla's range estimator account for the first two. EV Trip Planner accounts for all of them. But don't take my word for it: https://www.tesla.com/models and page down to "Range per charge". If a brand new S60 is credited with 172 miles of range by Tesla @ 70 mph & 32 deg. with the heat on using 100% of the battery capacity, then 172 x .7 (80% SOC to 10% SoC) = 120.4, and 172 x .65 (80% to 15% SoC) = 111.8. It's obviously possible to use more of the capacity, but only with longer stops to charge at a decreasing rate, and by imposing a more rapid degradation on the battery. Ignoring wind, elevation and load (internal or external), using say 6% capacity loss means that instead of an initial 172 miles of range in the above conditions, range is reduced to 161.7 before any other deductions.

Most western U.S. states have rural freeway speed limits of 75 or 80 mph rather than 70 (and lots of people drive 5 mph over the speed limit). Each additional 5 mph will reduce the range by around 20 miles (more like 15 miles if using the heater, as the shorter heater use partially compensates for the greater energy overcoming drag).

I'm pretty sure Tesla had always planned to have Superchargers so that
smaller packs (60-75kWh) should charge at every SC and bigger
packs (85-100kWh) can skip every second charger depending on lifestyle.

Ultimately, to come close to duplicating ICE convenience they will need SCs spaced no more than every half hour or so along freeways, allowing one or more to be skipped depending on conditions and battery size.

 

[arnis]

"For those chargers" - I mean those that are being discussed:
http://i.imgur.com/1TR4gmx.png
Check the climate for those. Check elevation. Check speed limits.

Looks like Tesla is changing average distance
between from ~125 miles to ~90 miles!?!?!?!?!

I gave argument against that. I don't think that Tesla will continue building
SC stations at 90mi distances by default.

Why people think that bad weather (heavy rain, snow) automatically means more
consumption. It's not always the case. Bad conditions means less speed usually :roll:
Otherwise can't say that conditions are bad.

Speed limit is a limit, not mandatory speed you have to drive (there are special signs for that).

 

[GRA]

"For those chargers" - I mean those that are being discussed:
http://i.imgur.com/1TR4gmx.png
Check the climate for those. Check elevation. Check speed limits.

Uh huh, the SCs in Nebraska on I-80 which scottf200 referred to, where the speed limit is 75 mph (80 in Wyoming. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States), temps in late fall/winter/early spring are often around freezing (or well below - see http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/grand-island/nebraska/united-states/usne0207 and http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/ogallala/nebraska/united-states/usne0361 for examples), the winds are often strong, and there's a steady gradual climb westbound. After all, Tesla had to put an SC in Primm, NV, because S85 owners with a full charge coming back from Las Vegas on I-15 (70 mph speed limit, but almost no one obeys it) were having trouble reaching the Barstow SC non-stop, which is only 162 miles, but there's a 3,700 foot climb along the way and there are often headwinds when westbound, sometimes very strong ones.

Looks like Tesla is changing average distance
between from ~125 miles to ~90 miles!?!?!?!?!

I gave argument against that. I don't think that Tesla will continue building
SC stations at 90mi distances by default.

Why people think that bad weather (heavy rain, snow) automatically means more
consumption. It's not always the case. Bad conditions means less speed usually :roll:
Otherwise can't say that conditions are bad.

I'm not talking about conditions which require you to slow down for safety (wet/snowy roads, which BTW also increase rolling resistance), we're talking about those which would require you to slow down below the flow of traffic just to reach your destination, or else use a much larger % of the total capacity. That's why I chose to use 32 degrees instead of 0 deg., because the roads can still be dry at that temp (or some degrees lower if heavily traveled).

Speed limit is a limit, not mandatory speed you have to drive (there are special signs for that).

Sure, but that isn't relevant to the discussion.