The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

[N952JL]

Phil, would it be cheaper to operate than the current rigs? I'm looking at cost of fuel vs electricity/fuel for generator?

=Joe

The beauty of a hybrid is that you could install a much smaller diesel engine which would be sized to cover the base highway load. The batteries and electric motor would handle acceleration, passing, etc. Normally you need a much larger engine which is less efficient and heavy.

Just an off the cuff guess is that you could easily improve mileage by 20%.

-Phil

There have been Class-8 (semi) hybrid tractors on the road since 2007, though the improvement is about 10%. I'll bet one of these could be dropped into a motorhome fairly easily - Eaton has a system for school buses...

http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/HybridPower/index.htm
http://www.thepetestore.com/news-detail.php?id=15
http://www.trucktrend.com/features/...c_hybrid_class_8_tractor_prototype/index.html

This is not what I had in mind. In a Train's Diesel-Electric locomotive the diesel ice does not provide any of the power for turning the wheels. Its sole purpose is to run a generator. the actual locomotion comes from the electric drive motors. See "http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/1005528.article". This article discusses the Jaguar concept car shown at this years auto show. The Bladon Micro Jet is at the heart of this. I wonder how small a trailer Phil could build using this 88 pound genset and BBQ grill size 20lbs LP bottle for fuel. Could it be small and light enough to fit into a special designed receiver on the back of the leaf vice a trailer?

With hub mounted electric drive motors, Drive by Wire controls, I wonder how a class A motor home might look with two to four of these turbines proving up to 140kW of power to recharge a 24kWh battery pack. (or would super capacitors be better than batteries?)

-Joseph

 

[N952JL]

some how the link did not show as a Live link. Let's try it again.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/1005528.article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this time without the quotes.
Joseph

 

[AndyH]

This is not what I had in mind. In a Train's Diesel-Electric locomotive the diesel ice does not provide any of the power for turning the wheels. Its sole purpose is to run a generator. the actual locomotion comes from the electric drive motors. See "http://www.theengineer.co.uk/in-depth/analysis/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/1005528.article". This article discusses the Jaguar concept car shown at this years auto show. The Bladon Micro Jet is at the heart of this. I wonder how small a trailer Phil could build using this 88 pound genset and BBQ grill size 20lbs LP bottle for fuel. Could it be small and light enough to fit into a special designed receiver on the back of the leaf vice a trailer?

With hub mounted electric drive motors, Drive by Wire controls, I wonder how a class A motor home might look with two to four of these turbines proving up to 140kW of power to recharge a 24kWh battery pack. (or would super capacitors be better than batteries?)

-Joseph

Gotcha - thanks! I don't think locomotives have storage, but do get the desire to focus on a series-hybrid.

Thanks for the link - I'll visit and do some reading!

 

[edatoakrun]

I hope they don't wait for the fuel cell, and the hydrogen infrastructure, to build it.

You can buy propane, in pretty much every town in the USA Today, to power any other type of generator mentioned on this thread.

...Nissan will unveil the Nissan TeRRA SUV fuel cell electric vehicle concept at the 2012 Paris Motor Show on 27 September. TeRRA, with a 3-motor, 4x4 powertrain, builds on Nissan’s success with what it calls “urban-relevant” SUVs and crossovers such as the Murano and Qashqai.

Powering the front wheels is the electric propulsion system currently featured in the battery-electric Nissan LEAF. In each back wheel, providing all-wheel power as needed, is an in-wheel electric motor, based on the working prototypes featured in three successive PIVO concepts. (Earlier post.)

As no drive shafts are required to power the rear wheels, there is no hump in the cabin floor or on the underbody. This allows for the flat cabin deck and the underside bodypan.

Under the hood is ample space for Nissan’s proprietary hydrogen fuel cell stack: a flat, highly compact unit that features power density of 2.5 kW/L. The latest in a series of Nissan fuel cells since 1996, the stack costs one-sixth of its 2005 progenitor as the need for expensive precious metals has been cut to one-quarter of the previous level...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/09/terra-20120912.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JRP3]

Fuel cell + wheel motors = it won't be built. Two bad ideas together don't become a good idea.

 

[gadyamit]

I'm new here, so I had to read… and found something that doesn't make sense to me.
I'm talking about the miles per gallon for Volt compare to EV towing a charging generator.

But let's start from the beginning. ICE cars use 100HP engine or larger, the reason is not to go 65 or 75 MPH which (as you know) can be done with a 25HP engine.
The real reason for larger Engine is very simple acceleration we can't tolerate a sluggish car performance. If you don't have extra juice in the battery to accelerate fast you need strong engine, that is why ICE engine need to be BIG.

So if you use your Leaf EV to tow 20HP engine with generator ~16KW you can go at HWY speed with probably better mileage per gallon. Compare to the Volt or any car driving next to you at the same speed. That is good thinking… So you have the extra juice in the battery to go faster when you need it… ICE cars don't have that luxury…

I actually did check the fuel consumption of a 20 HP 16KW generator, it should use 1.35 Gallons per Hour so we talking about ~55 Miles per gallon. This is "normal" out of the box generator before trying to improve things around…
Here is a link for Fuel Consumption http://www.hardydiesel.com/generator-fuel-consumption-calculator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (others look the same)

If we talk specifically about the Volt we carry Engine all the time... i.e when we don't need it. And we go longer distance (daily in my case) We use the engine so we don't drive clean…

So I think the trailer solution is the right one to go distance… and PURE EV car is simple and clean. Again I still looking for support i.e. how to actually connect and charge safely while driving. Maybe a Nissan's engineer read this?

Gad

 

[Ingineer]

So if you use your Leaf EV to tow 20HP engine with generator ~16KW you can go at HWY speed with probably better mileage per gallon. Compare to the Volt or any car driving next to you at the same speed. That is good thinking… So you have the extra juice in the battery to go faster when you need it… ICE cars don't have that luxury…

I actually did check the fuel consumption of a 20 HP 16KW generator, it should use 1.35 Gallons per Hour so we talking about ~55 Miles per gallon. This is "normal" out of the box generator before trying to improve things around…
Here is a link for Fuel Consumption http://www.hardydiesel.com/generator-fuel-consumption-calculator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (others look the same)

This is not entirely accurate. You consumption figures are off. I've never seen a 16kW generator that runs at full output be anywhere near that good. The calculator you linked is likely for much larger generators, and even then it's not going to be accurate in many situations.

Coming from someone who has successfully built what you describe here, I can speak with authority and say you will never get efficiency as good with a EV/Generator setup as with a direct engine to wheels setup (like the Volt). The one advantage that makes taking the efficiency hit worth it, is that you can easily disconnect the trailer when you are done and park it, rather than hauling it around every day. (like the volt)

My setup is using a turbine generator for it's cleanliness, light weight and high-reliability, but it's not as efficient as a piston-driven Diesel. The best I can do is about 35mpg on Propane. My turbine is very clean and is CARB approved, this would not be the case for a conventional generator. They are not permitted for motive power in California.

Just guessing here, but basing it on my experience: If you took the best 20kW diesel and gave it emission controls, such as particulate and urea, you could probably get it clean enough. You might be able to hit 40mpg if you really optimized it, but I doubt much more than this. If you built it into the car, then you might get 45, and if it was setup to mechanically drive the wheels (like a Volt) then you might get 50.

-Phil

 

[rcyoder]

As usual Phil actually builds sweet solutions!

How much did that bad boy set you back?

What kind of combined (full charge + genset) range do you get? Could I do the LA -> Bay Area run with it?

What mods are needed to the Leaf other than the tow hitch?

I only need more than a Leaf's standard range 4-5 times a year, but I really like driving it and wouldn't mind putting up with a trailer for those road trips. I like the idea of being able to rent a gen set when you need it.

 

[N952JL]

I'm not sure I can agree with Phil's statement that you could never get the generator to electric motor to wheels to be as effient as the ICE to wheels. As an example I can look at the real heavy haulers and see what rig they use. The biggest haulers we have that I can think of is the Trains. All tains today are powered at the wheels by electric motors. Some are directly powered with electricity via rails or power lines and do not generate their own. But most if not all in the US use a disel electric locomotive to haul the cars. The drive is total electric, the disel powers on a generator. The same set up is now being used on even a larger scale with cruise ships. Most of the newer cruise ships are pushed through the waves by electric motors. The disel ICE's run generators. But in this case more electric power is used for lights etc, then for the ship popusion (sp).

I am still following Blandon Micro Jets (http://www.bladonjets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. They are not saying much but I have noticed continuing developments of their web site, and they now are listing stand alone genesets for micro grids. Of course their biggest stake holder is TATA motors in India. It is still way too early to predict what will come of this, but some serious money is continuing to be available for it's development. they claim gensets from 5 to 100kW, Axial-flow, radial-flow or hybrid. And the new addition to the web site shows the smallest micro gas turbines are radial-flow designs with outputs ranging from 5-25kw and incorporates a high performance heat exchanger from Bryton Energy Canada.

It would be interesting to see how small the 25kw genset can be.

 

[N952JL]

are turbines ICE's? the cruise ships are using turbines to run the generators and electric motors to push the ship. Sorry I did not make that clarification in my previous post.

 

[Deleted member 770]

Nice updated photo Phil! The shroud that you put over it helps with appearance (and hopefully airflow as well).

When you have a bit of spare time to respond, I have a couple of questions:

• Did you manage to hook it into the regenerative circuitry so that you can use it while in motion?
• If so, how fast can you go on level ground and not lose battery charge?
• What's the range (and on how much fuel)?
• Any idea how much the trailer weighs?

Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[Ingineer]

I'm not sure I can agree with Phil's statement that you could never get the generator to electric motor to wheels to be as effient as the ICE to wheels. As an example I can look at the real heavy haulers and see what rig they use. The biggest haulers we have that I can think of is the Trains. All tains today are powered at the wheels by electric motors. Some are directly powered with electricity via rails or power lines and do not generate their own. But most if not all in the US use a disel electric locomotive to haul the cars. The drive is total electric, the disel powers on a generator. The same set up is now being used on even a larger scale with cruise ships. Most of the newer cruise ships are pushed through the waves by electric motors. The disel ICE's run generators. But in this case more electric power is used for lights etc, then for the ship popusion (sp).

I am still following Blandon Micro Jets (http://www.bladonjets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. They are not saying much but I have noticed continuing developments of their web site, and they now are listing stand alone genesets for micro grids. Of course their biggest stake holder is TATA motors in India. It is still way too early to predict what will come of this, but some serious money is continuing to be available for it's development. they claim gensets from 5 to 100kW, Axial-flow, radial-flow or hybrid. And the new addition to the web site shows the smallest micro gas turbines are radial-flow designs with outputs ranging from 5-25kw and incorporates a high performance heat exchanger from Bryton Energy Canada.

It would be interesting to see how small the 25kw genset can be.

In a large application such as a train or a ship, the equation changes, as transmission losses would be significant. The Electric setup allows them to keep the Diesel running at it's peak efficiency band, while the train speed and torque multiplication is handled electrically. Try doing that with gears and clutches and you'll have something massive, complicated, expensive, unreliable and also having poor efficiency.

In the Toyota Hybrid design (now copied by the Volt, and the new Hondas), They use a combination of electric and direct drive with a device called a "Power Split Device" which basically puts an electric motor/generator mechanically in series with the ICE. As an added enhancement they have clutches it the Volt to fully disconnect the ICE when in electric mode and also reduce the efficiency hit of the electric conversion when at highway speeds.

In ship-borne applications, the conversion to electric allows all the same benefits as it does in a Locomotive, plus the final electric drive motors are very compact. This allows the construction of Azipods for external thrust which is a major advantage for maneuverability in the may and varied ports the cruse ships operate in.

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

Nice updated photo Phil! The shroud that you put over it helps with appearance (and hopefully airflow as well).

When you have a bit of spare time to respond, I have a couple of questions:

• Did you manage to hook it into the regenerative circuitry so that you can use it while in motion?
• If so, how fast can you go on level ground and not lose battery charge?
• What's the range (and on how much fuel)?
• Any idea how much the trailer weighs?

Inquiring minds want to know...

It weighs under 500lbs wet (fully fueled). The whole point is that it can be used in motion, directly powering the Leaf's motor. (This is done via a 400 volt umbilical connection) Since it's capable of up to 30kW, it can also recharge the Leaf's battery while underway. It can handle average speeds of 75mph without depleting the SoC. It can also be used as a stationary 30kW CHAdeMO Quick-Charger.

It holds 16 gallons, and has an unlimited range as long as you refill it. (about 280 miles between refills)

-Phil

 

[smkettner]

are turbines ICE's? the cruise ships are using turbines to run the generators and electric motors to push the ship. Sorry I did not make that clarification in my previous post.

If the combustion gases turn the turbine I think it would be considered an ICE. If the fuel heats water to make steam to push the blades then I think not an ICE.

 

[mendenmh]

Turbines are not, in general, considered ICE. The combustion is pretty much in open air, at a fairly low compression. This is external combustion. It is why there is no mixture adjusting, etc., since the flame has access to as much air as it needs. This also is why they are pretty much automatically multi-fuel. Anything which goes through the nozzle and burns (within limits...) gets fully oxidized, and since there is no fixed combustion volume, differences in the energy content and density of the fuel are fairly automatically handled.

 

[N952JL]

I do not consider the volt a true diesel electric. It has that clutch you mention where the ICE can transfers power to the wheels. Your trailer is what I was referring to. Your system just gererates electricity. Isn't that more efficient?

So 16 gals. Burn rate of 4 gal/hr

I'm not sure I can agree with Phil's statement that you could never get the generator to electric motor to wheels to be as effient as the ICE to wheels. As an example I can look at the real heavy haulers and see what rig they use. The biggest haulers we have that I can think of is the Trains. All tains today are powered at the wheels by electric motors. Some are directly powered with electricity via rails or power lines and do not generate their own. But most if not all in the US use a disel electric locomotive to haul the cars. The drive is total electric, the disel powers on a generator. The same set up is now being used on even a larger scale with cruise ships. Most of the newer cruise ships are pushed through the waves by electric motors. The disel ICE's run generators. But in this case more electric power is used for lights etc, then for the ship popusion (sp).

I am still following Blandon Micro Jets (http://www.bladonjets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. They are not saying much but I have noticed continuing developments of their web site, and they now are listing stand alone genesets for micro grids. Of course their biggest stake holder is TATA motors in India. It is still way too early to predict what will come of this, but some serious money is continuing to be available for it's development. they claim gensets from 5 to 100kW, Axial-flow,
radial-flow or hybrid. And the new addition to the web site shows the smallest micro gas turbines are radial-flow designs with outputs ranging from 5-25kw and incorporates a high performance heat exchanger from Bryton Energy Canada.

It would be interesting to see how small the 25kw genset can be.

In a large application such as a train or a ship, the equation changes, as transmission losses would be significant. The Electric setup allows them to keep the Diesel running at it's peak efficiency band, while the train speed and torque multiplication is handled electrically. Try doing that with gears and clutches and you'll have something massive, complicated, expensive, unreliable and also having poor efficiency.

In the Toyota Hybrid design (now copied by the Volt, and the new Hondas), They use a combination of electric and direct drive with a device called a "Power Split Device" which basically puts an electric motor/generator mechanically in series with the ICE. As an added enhancement they have clutches it the Volt to fully disconnect the ICE when in electric mode and also reduce the efficiency hit of the electric conversion when at highway speeds.

In ship-borne applications, the conversion to electric allows all the same benefits as it does in a Locomotive, plus the final electric drive motors are very compact. This allows the construction of Azipods for external thrust which is a major advantage for maneuverability in the may and varied ports the cruse ships operate in.

-Phil

 

[N952JL]

I do not consider the volt a true diesel electric. It has that clutch you mention where the ICE can transfers power to the wheels. Your trailer is what I was referring to. Your system just gererates electricity. Isn't that more efficient?

So 16 gals. Burn rate of 4 gal/hr

I'm not sure I can agree with Phil's statement that you could never get the generator to electric motor to wheels to be as effient as the ICE to wheels. As an example I can look at the real heavy haulers and see what rig they use. The biggest haulers we have that I can think of is the Trains. All tains today are powered at the wheels by electric motors. Some are directly powered with electricity via rails or power lines and do not generate their own. But most if not all in the US use a disel electric locomotive to haul the cars. The drive is total electric, the disel powers on a generator. The same set up is now being used on even a larger scale with cruise ships. Most of the newer cruise ships are pushed through the waves by electric motors. The disel ICE's run generators. But in this case more electric power is used for lights etc, then for the ship popusion (sp).

I am still following Blandon Micro Jets (http://www.bladonjets.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. They are not saying much but I have noticed continuing developments of their web site, and they now are listing stand alone genesets for micro grids. Of course their biggest stake holder is TATA motors in India. It is still way too early to predict what will come of this, but some serious money is continuing to be available for it's development. they claim gensets from 5 to 100kW, Axial-flow,
radial-flow or hybrid. And the new addition to the web site shows the smallest micro gas turbines are radial-flow designs with outputs ranging from 5-25kw and incorporates a high performance heat exchanger from Bryton Energy Canada.

It would be interesting to see how small the 25kw genset can be.

In a large application such as a train or a ship, the equation changes, as transmission losses would be significant. The Electric setup allows them to keep the Diesel running at it's peak efficiency band, while the train speed and torque multiplication is handled electrically. Try doing that with gears and clutches and you'll have something massive, complicated, expensive, unreliable and also having poor efficiency.

In the Toyota Hybrid design (now copied by the Volt, and the new Hondas), They use a combination of electric and direct drive with a device called a "Power Split Device" which basically puts an electric motor/generator mechanically in series with the ICE. As an added enhancement they have clutches it the Volt to fully disconnect the ICE when in electric mode and also reduce the efficiency hit of the electric conversion when at highway speeds.

In ship-borne applications, the conversion to electric allows all the same benefits as it does in a Locomotive, plus the final electric drive motors are very compact. This allows the construction of Azipods for external thrust which is a major advantage for maneuverability in the may and varied ports the cruse ships operate in.

-Phil

 

[Ingineer]

I do not consider the volt a true diesel electric. It has that clutch you mention where the ICE can transfers power to the wheels. Your trailer is what I was referring to. Your system just gererates electricity. Isn't that more efficient?

The Volt is a Gasoline-Electric Plug-in Hybrid.

With my trailer its: Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Magnetism-->Electricity-->Magnetism-->Kinetic-->Road
With a Volt it's: Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Road

See the difference? That's why it's more efficient for direct drive. Each step has a certain amount of losses in both conversion and transmission.

It's even worse if you use my trailer in CHAdeMO mode:
Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Magnetism-->Electricity-->Electro Chemical Storage in Battery-->Electricity-->Magnetism-->Kinetic-->Road

-Phil

 

[N952JL]

I do not consider the volt a true diesel electric. It has that clutch you mention where the ICE can transfers power to the wheels. Your trailer is what I was referring to. Your system just gererates electricity. Isn't that more efficient?

The Volt is a Gasoline-Electric Plug-in Hybrid.

With my trailer its: Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Magnetism-->Electricity-->Magnetism-->Kinetic-->Road
With a Volt it's: Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Road

See the difference? That's why it's more efficient for direct drive. Each step has a certain amount of losses in both conversion and transmission.

It's even worse if you use my trailer in CHAdeMO mode:
Petroleum(Chemical)-->Heat-->Kinetic-->Magnetism-->Electricity-->Electro Chemical Storage in Battery-->Electricity-->Magnetism-->Kinetic-->Road

-Phil

Phil I see your point but the Volt's chemical to heat to road most of the energy is wasted as heat out the tail pipe. In your turbine how much is wasted as exhaust? As a complete system I believe the right turbine genset would have low maintenance with air bearings no oil, and high system efficiency. Based on my home electric rates (currently .095 kWh minus .0113 fuel cost adjustment, my Leaf cost less than $.02 /mile. At 16 gals your trailer cost about $.20 to .$21 per miles. I wold like to get that down to 8 gals.

 

[Ingineer]

Phil I see your point but the Volt's chemical to heat to road most of the energy is wasted as heat out the tail pipe. In your turbine how much is wasted as exhaust? As a complete system I believe the right turbine genset would have low maintenance with air bearings no oil, and high system efficiency. Based on my home electric rates (currently .095 kWh minus .0113 fuel cost adjustment, my Leaf cost less than $.02 /mile. At 16 gals your trailer cost about $.20 to .$21 per miles. I wold like to get that down to 8 gals.

Turbines, at least at sizes 200kW and below, by themselves, are less efficient than a same output piston engine. If you add the extra electrical conversion step, you lose even more.

I didn't choose a turbine for it's efficiency.

-Phil