The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

[hill]

I enjoy Phil being real. It makes him almost seem mortal.


Phil - I haven't been able to find any Capstone data on what kind of power your micro turbine is typically sold/designed to produce. 240v single phase? ... 480v 3 phase? or what
.

 

[edatoakrun]

So, they have the 30 kW BEVx in production...but in a vehicle rather larger than I need.

AS per my OP, I still would like a ~5-10 kW propane fueled micro-turbine in my ~20-30 kWh battery capacity BEVx.

Capstone Turbine Corporation (Nasdaq: CPST) has received an order for 34 of its C30 microturbine energy systems for use in DesignLine’s EcoSaver IV hybrid buses, which are to be delivered to the Denver Regional Transportation District (RTD) later this year...Two Capstone-equipped DesignLine buses have already been in service for a year on the route, and have better maintenance records than the TransTeq vehicles, according to RTD officials.

The DesignLine buses have an all-electric drivetrain, and use lithium-ion batteries to power the electric motors and accessories such as air conditioning, power steering and lighting. The batteries recover kinetic energy via a regenerative braking system, and are recharged by the Capstone 30 kW microturbine, which runs on clean diesel or biodiesel...

http://www.chargedevs.com/content/news-wire/post/denver-range-extended-electric-buses-use-capstone-microturbines" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When I read that story, and having spent quite a few hours recharging my LEAF's battery pack at RV parks, I immediately thought what a great idea it would be to put this bus BEVx drive-train in an RV, which could recharge overnight on the existing infrastructure for initial BEV range, as well as use fast-charging and the micro-turbine as required for longer daily trips.

 

[Ingineer]

Phil - I haven't been able to find any Capstone data on what kind of power your micro turbine is typically sold/designed to produce. 240v single phase? ... 480v 3 phase? or what
.

It's the Capstone C30. Originally designed for 480v 3-Phase. I basically converted it to the equivalent of their HEV model. They have information on their web site.

Incidentally there are some good deals to be had on eBay. Here's one in the bay area just like mine presently at $4k, though it ends in a few hours!

-Phil

 

[franklin44]

Sorry for jumping in this discussion late, just got my 2012 leaf month ago, and was stranded already once because of a malfunctioning charge point.

Most of the time I do not need a range extender, but the possibility to hook one up seems great.
my basic question is would it be possible to just extend the 220 120 v charge port to a back connector.
charging while driving with 3,7 KW already gives a theoretical extension of the range by approx. 15%.

what to use for generating the electricity, is a more personal choice and will change over time when more options become economical viable.
and for the 2013 model 6 kw charge would also be an option.

The basic question I have is how to get a simple back connector for charging while driving, maybe using a standard trailer connector or other small sized standard plug.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You could extend the 120 volt EVSE to the back just by mounting it under the hood and using a heavy duty 120 volt extension cord run under the body (and properly secured).

I keep seeing these generator add-on ideas and always feel revulsion. A propane powered *catalytic* heater is something I've been suggesting for years, but running an ICE attached to an EV...? Just get a Prius or a Volt.

 

[franklin44]

well I bought a leaf not a prius
most of the time I do not need a extender.
sometimes it would be nice to hook one up.

Extending the powercord probably won't work since the leaf's programming probably don't allow drive and charge this way.

 

[LeftieBiker]

well I bought a leaf not a prius
most of the time I do not need a extender.
sometimes it would be nice to hook one up.

Extending the powercord probably won't work since the leaf's programming probably don't allow drive and charge this way.

It would be easier to correct which car you bought than to make the Leaf charge and drive at the same time.

 

[edatoakrun]

Looks like Mazda maybe considering its own BEVx.

Unfortunately, Like BMW, Mazda will probably choose (IMO) the wrong fuel for the extender ICE, if and when it's built.

I almost wish CARB had simply banned the use of gasoline for BEVx compliance.

I doubt California's gasoholics would understand that gasoline fuel use is a disadvantage, not an advantage, for a BEVx, for the reasons I mentioned in my OP.

We've driven the latest Mazda 2 EV to test a new range-extending rotary engine


Mazda gave us a glimpse into its future by revealing a new rotary range extender engine and allowed us a very brief drive in a modified Mazda 2 EV to experience it in action.

The tiny single-rotor 330cc engine generates 30bhp at 4,500rpm and, via a belt drive, can maintain a continuous electric output of 20kw. The compact size of rotary engines makes them perfectly suited to range extender applications, while their low vibration and minimal noise characteristics further add to their suitability for the task of maintaining battery charge on electric vehicles.

Plus, by running constantly at optimal revs, the high fuel and oil consumption issue that can trouble rotary engines is negated. Cleverly designed as flat as possible within a modular frame, the engine, electric generator, nine-litre fuel tank and ancillaries weigh just 100kg and are designed to attach underneath an electric car, without reducing boot space or requiring expensive redesigning of the body shell.

A brief drive of the Mazda 2 EV being used as a test bed confirmed the unit is quiet – it’s only in the back seat that you can hear it running. We didn’t drive the prototype long enough to establish what kind of effect the extra 100kg hanging behind the rear axle has on handling but Mazda’s engineers claimed that in theory the range extender would double the range of the Mazda 2 EV before needing its small fuel tank filled up.

At this early stage Mazda is coy about the exact capabilities of the engine and the timescale before we see a production Mazda range-extender EV. Currently, the firm has no electric cars in its range – just a small fleet of pure EV Mazda 2s being tested by government agencies in Japan. However, Powertrain Development Program manager Takashi Suzuki confirmed that the aim was for the rotary to achieve a 13g/km output, just like the BMW i3 range extender engine.

Interestingly, Mazda’s engineers explained that the rotary power pack was so compact that it could have non-automotive uses, including being used as an emergency back up generator. With this purpose in mind it could be adapted to run on Butane or Propane, in addition to petrol...

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mazda/2/84660/mazda-2-ev-gets-new-rotary-range-extender-engine" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

If we ever see fuel cells in electric vehicles in large numbers, they will, IMO, probably be for x, in BEVxs.

I wonder if CARB regulations will force you to draw your battery down to ~6% SOC before you are allowed start the fuel cell...

Official BMW i3 thread

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=721&start=910" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hydrogen fuel cells have often been viewed as alternatives to large battery packs for powering electric vehicles.

But what if a small hydrogen fuel cell could be used in a battery-electric vehicle--solely as a range extender?

The French postal service, La Poste, is about to test that concept in three Renault Kangoo ZE small delivery vans...

The Kangoo ZE is driven by a 44-kilowatt (70-horsepower) electric motor, powered by a 22-kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack. Its range is rated at about 100 miles (160 km) on the European cycle, though in the U.S., its EPA-equivalent range might be as low as 70 miles.

The fuel cell, along with a reinforced 1.3-cubic-foot (38-liter) tank holding 3.8 pounds (1.72 kg) of hydrogen compressed at 5000 psi (35 mPa), is said to add a further 100 miles. At full power, roughly 0.1 lb (0.3 kg) of hydrogen is consumed per hour.

According to Symbio FCell, the hydrogen-powered range extender is based on a system of 5-kW stacks--the HyKangoo uses a 5-kW system--and can be sized to provide output from 5 kW to 20 kW using one to four modules.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089195_hydrogen-as-electric-car-range-extender-french-tests-start-soon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Not many drivetrain details in the video, but good to see Walmart may reduce its huge carbon pollution output, if it ever takes the ruthless approach to cost-cutting to it's fleet of diesel-guzzling semis delivering cheap crap all over the country, that it already has to its suppliers and employees.

Video: Walmart WAVE Hybrid Semi-Truck Promises Efficiency

...With the WAVE Concept, Walmart has built a big rig made mostly out of carbon fiber, which saves a whopping 4,000 pounds per vehicle. Power comes from a Capstone microturbine engine coupled to a battery pack and a powerful electric motor. An ultra-aerodynamic design includes electric sliding doors and a seating arrangement that puts the driver in the center of the cab, in front of a fully-customizable LCD gauge cluster...

Sort of short-sighted, IMO, to worry about where to put the driver's seat, as I expect even greater cost savings from removing the driver's seat (and the driver) from all trucks on US roads in the not-too-distant future.

http://gas2.org/2014/02/20/video-walmart-wave-hybrid-semi-truck-promises-efficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JRP3]

Sort of short-sighted, IMO, to worry about where to put the driver's seat, as I expect even greater cost savings from removing the driver's seat (and the driver) from all trucks on US roads in the not-too-distant future.

I would not count on that happening any time soon. First, the public probably would not handle the concept of a huge semi without a driver, and second the millions of truckers that would be put out of a job would probably fight it tooth and nail. So considering that it makes sense to move the seat to the middle and narrow the cab.

 

[edatoakrun]

More details out on the Wave:

http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2014/03/26/walmart-debuts-futuristic-truck" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...Range Extending Series Hybrid: Range extending hybrids are a synergy between electric trucks and series hybrids, and their design reduces the energy storage size required for trucks to run on batteries alone... The generator and energy storage on the truck are scalable based on the range desired.

Turbine Power: The truck features a microturbine Range Extender generator developed by Capstone Turbine Corporation. The company also engineered the truck’s integrated hybrid drivetrain solution. The use of a hybrid powertrain allows the turbine to remain at optimum operating revolutions per minute (RPM), while the electric motor/energy storage handles acceleration and deceleration. A longer-range version of this powertrain would feature a larger turbine and smaller energy storage system.

“We developed this microturbine hybrid electric drive system by assembling the best team of technology leaders in the industry,” said Steve Gillette, director of business development for Capstone. “We look forward to the day when these energy-saving features are standard offers for the market.”

Fuel Neutral Capability: Turbines by their nature are fuel neutral and produce very low emissions without the need for aftertreatment. Turbines are also appealing because of their few moving parts, low maintenance requirements and lighter weight.

Component Electrification: With automobiles moving to electrified accessories such as power steering and air conditioning, this truck scales those systems up for use on a larger vehicle. These electrified components are used only when needed and at peak efficiency.

Charge Mode: When keyed on, the truck automatically detects the state of charge of the batteries and starts charging them, if needed, using the turbine engine. Charge mode can be manually selected if an operator wishes to “top off” the batteries prior to shutting down.

Electric Vehicle Mode: For use in urban areas, the truck will run on electric power alone until the battery state of charge hits 50 percent. At that time the turbine will automatically start and begin charging the batteries.

Hybrid Electric Mode: For maximum range, this mode runs the turbine continuously, only shutting down if the batteries run out...

Too bad CARB won't allow BEVx passenger vehicles to be used most efficiently, utilizing all three modes.

Another video here:

http://insideevs.com/walmart-wave-truck-details/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not many drivetrain details in the video...

http://gas2.org/2014/02/20/video-walmart-wave-hybrid-semi-truck-promises-efficiency/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JRP3]

Too bad CARB won't allow BEVx passenger vehicles to be used most efficiently, utilizing all three modes.

If you mean using the ICE to charge the battery that's the least efficient mode, so no reason to enable it.

 

[edatoakrun]

Too bad CARB won't allow BEVx passenger vehicles to be used most efficiently, utilizing all three modes.

If you mean using the ICE to charge the battery that's the least efficient mode, so no reason to enable it.

Even though it is the least efficient way to charge, it allows you to avoid the greater inefficiency from having to carry an oversized generator.

IMO, this is the major design error of both both the i-3 and the Volt.

There are many circumstances when the BEVx driver might want to move the kWh in the fuel tank to the batteries.

Several examples were in my OP:

...So, say you are a San Francisco Bay Area resident. You usually keep the heater set to propane by default in the winter, extending the range by about 10% and reducing battery cycling accordingly, without even using the ICE feature. You refill the 5 gallon propane tank once a month or so, just to supply the heater.

When you want to take the BEV on the occasional longer drive, say to Tahoe for a weekend of skiing, instead of making 3 or 4 stops (with a 20-30 available kWh battery pack) for DC charges, you just turn on the ICE generator during your trip, as soon as your battery capacity drops to a level to efficiently accept charge, while you and your passengers are kept toasty warm by the propane heater. You stop for one 30 minute 80% DC charge at Auburn (120 miles in 2 hours of driving, about 20 kWh consumed from the battery pack, and 16 kWh used from the generator) and top-off the propane tank (you only used a few gallons) at the adjacent minimart. This is just enough generator-assisted charge to get you the last 80 miles over Donner Summit to your destination, but you never get “range anxiety" (or BEV "freeze anxiety" about road closures or delays, due to weather) as you know that if you get the “very low battery” warning, you can just pull off the road, and if there is no charge station (or only a L2) nearby, you can always find a place to stop for a short break, while you self-recharge for the last few miles, using your generator. And if you get stuck behind a semi that jackknifed in a snowstorm, closing the road, you can watch the generator add bars to your battery, as the propane heater keeps you and your passenger comfortable, while you wait for the road to be cleared...

 

[JRP3]

That makes no sense. It's always less efficient to run an ICE, to charge batteries, to drive or heat a car. It's more efficient to run the ICE and either directly drive the car, or use it's excess heat, or run the ICE to power the electric motor directly without the extra energy conversion through a charger, into a battery, and back out of a battery. There is a reason plug in hybrids like the Volt don't do what you suggest, it's not efficient.

 

[Brenthasty]

The Leaf needs about 20kW to sustain highway use, so a 10kW would easily double your range. 20kW would be about perfect for long trips, and 30kW would allow you to charge and drive, so you could arrive with a full charge. This is what I'm building with a Capstone 30kW turbine. I can run it on CNG or Propane, and it's cleaner than almost any ICE.

-Phil

It has arrived, I just took delivery of my capstone C30 APU, I plan to follow ingneers example here.

I need to be able to make portland oregon to salt lake utah and back a couple times a year for grampa and grandson to spend time in life together; in my leaf.

Ultimatly, I plan on rejetting this engine to burn wood pellets so my boy max can make the trip to grandpas net zero carbon in style...

 

[Brenthasty]

My engine has arrived, an multifueled everything fueled 40hp 30kw 30% efficiency recouperated centrifugal oil free air bearing annular brayton cycle jet engine!

It currently has injectors to burn any gaseous fuels, im ordering a set of injectors that can burn any liquid fuel, and I hope to make a set of injectors that enable it to burn solid fuel, biomass, or wood pellets!
No wood gasification or scrubbing required!

Why?
Because I want my nissan leaf to be a cannibal, capeable of eating trees or lawn clippings to locomote.

Because this prime mover could power the farm on its waste biomass, including the tractor.... unlimited hot water, heat, electricity...

One $3 40# bag of wood pellets has the BTU content of 2.5 gallons of gasoline! And adds wayy less cost to national health care, or even international warfare!

 

[Ingineer]

Congrats, yes the Capstone is a thing of beauty. I can't see how you are going to get it to run on wood pellets though. Good luck!

I had to do extensive modifications to mine (was set up for 480V 3-Phase AC) to make it DC bi-directional. (Actually it's tri-directional) It wasn't a cake walk, but it works!

-Phil

 

[Brenthasty]

Thanks for the congrads, as this movea forward for me I may habe a few questions.

Correct me if im wrong, but does The c30 is actually not an alternator but a brushless motor internally so voltage is linear to rpm, I think at 100, 000 rpm is about when it hits 480 volts.

I will be borrowing from rc jet control logic for the start run and fuel metering.
I am going to need to source the power conditioning circuit to phase in to the leaf, prolly a dc/dc

As to burning biomass, im thinking a propane start, the 500f waste heat is plenty to gassify the pellets, such generated wood gas can then be inducted through the propane nozzles for combustion. A fraction of thw wood pellets 8500 btu per pound will be wasted as biochar; at least till I make auger injectors that can induct wood pellets whole...

 

[edatoakrun]

Another variation on charge while you drive described below.

I'm extremely skeptical as to whether fuel cells will ever be viable for vehicle propulsion, for the simple reason that they are far more efficient when installed at BEV charge sites, where they can be fueled from the existing natural gas infrastructure and where the waste heat generated is easily recoverable.

But at Renault it gets the approximate ratio of kW generation to kWh storage about right:

French Post Office “La Poste”, which owns the world’s largest fleet of electric cars (several thousand Renault Kangoo Z.E.s) together with Renault Trucks launched tests of the first electric truck with a hydrogen fuel cell range extender – probably one of the better examples of where this technology ultimately can find a home.

The choice fell on Renault’s 4.5-ton Maxity Electric truck, equipped with a 42 kWh battery pack and 20 kW hydrogen-powered range extender...

http://insideevs.com/la-poste-tests-renault-electric-truck-fuel-cell-range-extender/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As per my OP, I think the optimum ratio of battery kWh available to kW generated while you drive will probably be somewhere between 4/1 and 2/1, for most BEVx vehicles.

But as described, this actually seems to be configured as a fuel cell vehicle with a battery power booster:

...Renault Trucks has configured its 4.5-ton Maxity Electric vehicle to accommodate a fuel cell, with the development and vehicle integration steps being carried out in partnership with the firm Symbio FCell. As a result, Maxity Electric's average autonomy of approx. 100 kilometers has been bumped up another 100 kilometers thanks to energy supplied by the fuel cell. "When the vehicle is running, the electric motor is fed by two complementary energy sources; the fuel cell is capable of delivering a maximum power of 20 kW and, once that threshold has been reached, the batteries kick in to supply whatever power is still required. When idle, the fuel cell is available to recharge the battery as needed", points out Christophe Vacquier, supervising the project. The heat released by the cell is then reused to warm the passenger compartment, which avoids having to consume any energy stored in the batteries, thus helping ensure longer autonomy...

http://corporate.renault-trucks.com/en/press-releases/2015-02-23-the-french-poste-office-and-renault-trucks-jointly-test-a-hydrogen-powered-truck-running-on-a-fuel-cell.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;