The Volt is NOT an EV

[smkettner]

I wonder if the CEO even knows the difference or has been told :roll:

Reminds me of the story, The Emperor's New Clothes

Where is the pool on the next BK filing?

 

[JPVLeaf]

Recall this article from US News and World Reports, "Chevy Volt -- 100 mpg, or 48 mpg?" from two years ago? Given GMs argument to the EPA at that point, it appears the Volt likely was intended to be a true serial hybrid, otherwise their argument, it seems to me, would have been baseless.

Yup, this could be a marketing, credibility mess. How will the marketing types spin this one? Now, the Volt will have to go head-to-head against both the initially targetted competition, the BEV's ... (via 'range anxiety'), plus against the PHEV's (presumably on non-EV mileage and cost?). Phew.

From "Chevy Volt -- 100 mpg, or 48 mpg?", 9/8/08

"General Motors and the Environmental Protection Agency have apparently begun an argument over just what, exactly, GM's upcoming plug-in hybrid Chevy Volt is. The point isn't just academic -- it could determine whether the Volt receives a jaw-dropping EPA rating of over 100 mpg -- -- making it by far the most fuel-efficient car sold by a major automaker -- or a rather Prius-like 48 mpg.

GM considers the Chevy Volt an electric car. The EPA wants to classify it as a hybrid."

It also can't be overstated what that 48 mpg rating might do to Volt sales. The next-generation Prius is expected to achieve more than 90 mpg. Even the current Prius is rated for 48 on the highway. GM clearly doesn't want to have to market the Volt in 2010 and later as nearly as fuel-efficient as a 2008 Prius.

 

[TRONZ]

Ever since I read that Wall Street wanted to kill the Volt project I have been waiting to see how GM will "kill" it. We are now getting a rough cut of the script. This time it will be the pathetic "we just screwed up... oh well" excuse or the angry "so sue us, we can't afford another mistake so no more EV's" excuse or the "damn LEAF" excuse. Lets be VERY crystal clear here, American car companies are owned by the same people that own oil companies. These people got us to pay for GM and the Volt anyway so they have no problem with seeing it all fail. In fact, an incredibly spectacular and public failure would be even better!!! Done really well it could even damage peoples perceptions of all these darn newfangled eco cars. Seriously, Congratulations GM! After years of work in groundbreaking new technology hype... you made a hybrid. :shock:

 

[mitch672]

yes, and a subpar hybrid at that.

 

[JPVLeaf]

I personally never felt the volt was an EV. It's always been a gas guzzler.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/11/shocker-chevy-says-volts-gas-engine-can-power-the-wheels-its/

But I was willing to tolerate it, if it makes more people think about alternatives.

And, your article (link), with updates, speaks to GM's motivation for being ... less than truthful.

From http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/11/shocker-chevy-says-volts-gas-engine-can-power-the-wheels-its/

Since the concept stage the company has been saying how the onboard internal combustion engine was just to charge the batteries, that only the electric motors (there are two) are actually connected to the drivetrain. Indeed that's what we were told in person when we test drove the thing back in March. We're now learning that is not the case, that the Volt's gasoline engine can directly provide power to the wheels in concert with the electric motors.

Is that a problem? In terms of efficiency the answer is "apparently not," as we're guessing the car would not have been designed this way if it weren't the most frugal way to go. So, why all the deception? Why insist this isn't just a hybrid when it apparently is? When the company went looking for a government bailout it was in part awarded one because of the innovation shown in the Volt. Now that we're learning the Volt is basically just a plug-in hybrid with a bigger than average battery pack (Popular Mechanics is finding 30-odd miles of purely electric range), we're left wondering: where's the innovation?

Update: We've added some further details and analysis below.

So what is this, if it isn't a proper EV with just an onboard internal combustion generator to recharge the batteries? The Motor Trend story we've linked to provides the cleanest explanation differentiating Chevy's technology from that used by Toyota on the Prius. Basically, the Volt's ICE is coupled to the ring gear within the transmission, which at highway speed (we're hearing reports of between 60 and 70mph) spins up to provide direct mechanical power when the batteries are near depleted. This is important because this is exactly when electric motors are least efficient. Again, this is also contrary to what we were told before, that the ICE would only spin up on-demand to provide extra juice to the electric motor.

Now, because the ICE is not spinning the ring gear at lower speeds this layout should mean for less drivetrain loss around town than the Prius. However, at highway speeds, once that initial charge you got from plugging it in overnight is depleted this more or less drives like any other hybrid. Is this important? If you commute on the highway it certainly could be, but really what is needed is more real-world mpg figures, and we'll need a lot more Volts to hit the road before we can call any of those conclusive.

 

[evnow]

Personally I don't care. I always thought of Volt as a series hybrid. Turns out at times it is a parallel hybrid as well.

But yes, it can't be called an EV. So, I've changed the sub-forum name to include Plug-In Hybrids :twisted:

What irks me is that GM has been lying to us all these years (I've been following it for 3 years or more) and yet they said they were being “very transparent”. They have just manipulated the media (including Dr Lyle who has spent an enormous amount of sweat on gm-volt) to be their mouth-pieces. They kept denying in so many ways that the ICE won’t directly power the wheels – only to be told differently now. They even called an engineer in UK who spilled the beans a valet.

Ofcourse GM marketing already showed its true colors by spreading FUD about Leaf instead of trying to convert gas guzzle users.

It's a pity - since I think Volt looks & drives like a nice car (though too expensive). This episode will leave a lot of bad memories for a many of us who have been interested in the idea of reduced oil use rather than brand loyalty.

 

[indyflick]

Chris Paine, the director of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" has a follow up documentary entitled "The Revenge of the Electric Car" currently in prooduction. He is featuring the Volt in this new documentary, as I understand it. I wonder if he'll be re-shooting and including this revelation about the Volt really just being a plug in hybrid. He's gotta be thinking, "those lying bastards at GM did it again!"

 

[cdub]

I wonder too.

I read on their blog that they actually filmed the Volt being made as a "Re-birth" of the electric car. With this new info that really isn't the case now is it?

But symbolically it still works... GM is trying to turn over a new leaf (haha) and build back some EV cred with this car. Too bad they are messing the PR of it so poorly.

 

[johnr]

I wonder what Chelsea Sexton and Bill Nye think about this. They have worked closely with GM as the company worked on producing what we all thought would again be an electric car, like the EV1 coming back from the grave, and with a range extending engine that only comes on when and if the electric range is used up. But now we know it's more of a plug-in hybrid because the engine runs at highway speed. Personally, although this weakens the impact of the Volt, I don't think this is enough by itself to undo it. Chelsea, your thoughts?

 

[TRONZ]

Chris Paine, the director of "Who Killed the Electric Car?" has a follow up documentary entitled "The Revenge of the Electric Car" currently in prooduction. He is featuring the Volt in this new documentary, as I understand it. I wonder if he'll be re-shooting and including this revelation about the Volt really just being a plug in hybrid. He's gotta be thinking, "those lying bastards at GM did it again!"

They were filming this movie during the AltCar Expo in Santa Monica a few weeks ago. The film crew and director were working in the LEAF area and asking people if they could ride along and film them test driving. It was all very cool! Not sure what Chris is thinking now but I sure hope he takes GM to task over this "little" lie. Nissan gets it! The race is to create a PURE EV. GM seems to think its to create a new slogan or acronym for a gas powered car. Very twisted!

 

[mitch672]

I do hope the Volt is succesful, but if it isn't, it will be the end for GM, the Volt was supposed to be "GMs new begining", if it fails, so will GM. There won't be another goverment bailout, the American taxpayers have had enough. I wish GM well, but I'm afraid that's not going to be enough, in this case.

 

[DaveEV]

Personally I don't care. I always thought of Volt as a series hybrid. Turns out at times it is a parallel hybrid as well.

Me too. The news doesn't change my opinion of the Volt at all.

The reasoning behind allowing the engine to directly power the wheels is simple enough - it boosts efficiency by avoiding energy conversion losses.

In fact - we all should be glad it does this - otherwise it'd burn more gas than it would.

But yes, it can't be called an EV. So, I've changed the sub-forum name to include Plug-In Hybrids :twisted:
Heh.

It's a pity - since I think Volt looks & drives like a nice car (though too expensive). This episode will leave a lot of bad memories for a many of us who have been interested in the idea of reduced oil use rather than brand loyalty.

True - but I think most are over-reacting. Do people think significantly less of the Prius PHEV even though it's significantly limited in it's pure EV capabilities?

IMO the only thing that matters is how the thing performs. And one place where the Volt is highly suspect in performance is in range-extended mode where it seems likely that it will get less than 40 mpg using premium fuel - even with the engine partially powering the wheels.

That is one area that the Prius PHEV appears to kill the Volt since it's range-extended mode seems to be equal to the regular Prius in operation which means close to 50 mpg for most drivers.

That said - the Volt appears to be the best limited compromise drivers car that will be available on the market for at least the next year.

It has very good power (0-60 less than 9 seconds), good handling and steering feel and enough battery capacity to allow most people to drive without a drop of gas for the majority of their driving and without having any range anxiety.

The drawbacks are the high cost/weight/complexity and limited extended range fuel economy (it appears that many cars on the market will meet the Volt in highway fuel economy in the next year).

I wish GM the best of luck with the Volt and hope they succeed. If not with the first generation Volt, but with later generations. I suspect the 1st gen Volt will be like the first gen Prius - a car which showcases the technology well but still falls short in a number of areas and where the 2nd gen blows the competition out of the water.

 

[Boomer23]

Personally I don't care. I always thought of Volt as a series hybrid. Turns out at times it is a parallel hybrid as well.

Me too. The news doesn't change my opinion of the Volt at all.

+1 for me.

Two things concern me, though. Did GM lie to get the bailout bucks and to fool EV early adopters into thinking the car is something it's not? And secondly, if backlash to this news allows papers like the WSJ to further discount EVs in general and slow the move toward EVs.

 

[evnow]

Did GM lie to get the bailout bucks ....

Volt predates bailout by years ....

 

[Lopton]

Quotes from the volt website:

"Volt is powered only by electricty stored in the battery for trips up to 40 miles" (guess they should add, or if you accelerate to quickly, or go to fast in those 40 miles.)

and

"In practice, hybrid vehicles typically require both sources - engine and battery - to provide full vehicle performance capability" (umm sounds like the Volt)

and

 

[evnow]

Lopton - nice find.

 

[walterbays]

Volt predates bailout by years ....

If GM had always represented the Volt as a PHEV they'd be looking good now. They could actually leap-frog the world's leading hybrid, and bring to market a PHEV with better EV-mode range than the plug-in Prius, and deliver it sooner than the plug-in Prius. Sure they'd have to argue about the prices and about the MPG in ICE-mode, but they'd have a better story to argue than they ever had before.

I read somewhere speculation that GM intended to build a range extended EV, but it didn't work well so they changed it to PHEV. Initially the simplicity of the drive train would have let them undercut the price of the PHEV's like Prius, and deliver longer EV-mode range as well. But highway driving drained the battery too quickly and/or performance in ICE mode, driven entirely through the electric motor, wasn't good enough. So they modified their design, but didn't change all the PR already in progress.

 

[indyflick]

Is that a spork on that website? Back on topic... I guess what irks me (beyond their two years of lying) is that it was apparently necessary for the Volt to be a parallel hybrid to gain efficiencies a speeds >70mph. Really? So all that transmission complexity is there so we can efficiently hurl ourself down the highways at high velocity?

There was a post on another thread which showed an original RAV4 EV with a trailer carrying a genset (powered by a motor cycle engine) which tapped into the regen circuit and the RAV4 EV could maintain highway speed. Yet GM finds it necessary to create this frankenEV to achieve the same requirements, a real shame.

 

[planet4ever]

I guess what irks me (beyond their two years of lying) is that it was apparently necessary for the Volt to be a parallel hybrid to gain efficiencies a speeds >70mph. Really? So all that transmission complexity is there so we can efficiently hurl ourself down the highways at high velocity?

Quotes from the volt website:

"Volt is powered only by electricty stored in the battery for trips up to 40 miles" (guess they should add, or if you accelerate to quickly, or go to fast in those 40 miles.)

No, I don't think either of you have that right. In 'charge depleting mode' (the first 25 to 50 miles) the Volt still seems to be powered only by electricity, and the ICE never turns on. The part which is news in this mode is that at very high speeds the power will be provided by two electric motors, not just the one main traction motor. As gm-volt.com paraphrases Frank Markus of Motor Trend,

There is a large central sun gear turned by the 149 horsepower electric motor at all times. Around it is a planetary carrier which turns the wheels. When the car is in charge depleting mode, an outer ring is locked to the case. The engine and generator are disengaged.

When the car reaches 70 mph the main motor spins too fast to be maximally efficient, and a clutch disengages the ring from the case. This allows the second electric motor to participate and both motors act in parallel to reach speeds of 101 mph with adequate power.

Back to Lopton quoting and commenting:

"In practice, hybrid vehicles typically require both sources - engine and battery - to provide full vehicle performance capability" (umm sounds like the Volt)

On the contrary, that is why GM does not call it a hybrid, because it does not "require" both engine and battery for full performance.

But the other news is that in charge sustaining mode (after the battery is depleted) they do appear to be using the ICE to drive the wheels. I have always believed that the Volt is half-EV and half-hybrid, but I did think that it was a pure series hybrid when it wasn't an EV. It now turns out that it is probably a series/parallel hybrid in that mode, just like the Prius.

Please note, however, that this "parallel" news applies only to CS mode. I still believe that the Volt is a pure EV in CD mode. I also know that I drive more than 35 miles/day only about 1.5 times per month on average. So for me a Volt would be a true EV 95% of the time.

Incidentally, I drive more than 90 miles/day about 8 or 9 times a year. So, from a practical viewpoint, a LEAF is a true EV about 98% of the time.

I'm sorry, folks, but the difference between 95% EV and 98% EV is not enough for me to paint one black and the other white. Now, am I going to buy a Volt? Not hardly! Not at that price, and not with their sales schemes. But I am going to continue to call it an EV (or, more accurately, EREV) and I am going to continue to wish them success in the marketplace.

 

[Lopton]

There is a large central sun gear turned by the 149 horsepower electric motor at all times. Around it is a planetary carrier which turns the wheels. When the car is in charge depleting mode, an outer ring is locked to the case. The engine and generator are disengaged.

When the car reaches 70 mph the main motor spins too fast to be maximally efficient, and a clutch disengages the ring from the case. This allows the second electric motor to participate and both motors act in parallel to reach speeds of 101 mph with adequate power.

Yup, yup, and yup. I completely understand how it works, pretty neat system for sure. I admire the system. I hate the fact that they tried to market this as an EV at all, they even made up a EV-RE category.... but they did it for a truly hybrid system.

And as far as the quote "In practice, hybrid vehicles typically require both sources - engine and battery - to provide full vehicle performance capability" To meet the full performance of the car the GAS ENGINE IS REQUIRED, unless you mean to tell me that 70MPH+ is not part of full performance?

Don't get me wrong, their idea and actual concept is great engineering, I am mad at their lousy marketing and mixed messages!