The Volt is NOT an EV

[garygid]

So, ONE (the Main) Electric motor can drive the Volt's wheels via the Sun gear to the Planetary gears (with the outer ring clamped), right?

Or, a SECOND source of torque can also help drive the wheels (one driving the sun-gear and the 2nd driving the outer ring gear), right?

Then, is the second source of torque:
1. the electric generator, running as a motor (ICE not turning), or
2. the ICE powered on and driving the ring gear (and possibly spinning the generator), or
3. both the ICE and the generator (acting as a motor) providing power, or
4. can be any of the three above, depending upon clutches and the speed/power requirements?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

i drove the Volt and it was always in charge sustaining mode and it drove fine. had very decent acceleration. i got it up to just about 60 mph when doing the leg between Hiway 18 and I-5. it barely moved the charge level.

i think GM realized that in extreme conditions like hill climbing outside Denver or Albuquerque, that additional power would be needed and made the proper adjustments.

now we assume they purposefully lied to us, but in my mind, i think they found under testing that they simply needed a better way.

kinda wondering how many battery packs blew up from thermal runaway in Colorado??
:shock:

 

[smkettner]

If Volt was to connect the ICE to the driveline I do not see why it waits to 70mph. Chev should have just embraced the function and engage from a sustained 45+ and just fess up to what the car really does. Much of what I like about the electric car (Leaf) is to have a very simple transmission or gear set. With Volt's two electric motors and engaging the ICE it seems like going backward to a complex system.

Seems like Volt is trying too hard to be all things to all people and really missed the EV market where it was expected to perform. Looks like Leaf is the only player in its market function and price point. Volt just misses having any sort of market nitch. I hope Volt does well but I do not see it going very far unless it is changed significantly in the next version.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

If Volt was to connect the ICE to the driveline I do not see why it waits to 70mph. Chev should have just embraced the function and engage from a sustained 45+ and just fess up to what the car really does. Much of what I like about the electric car (Leaf) is to have a very simple transmission or gear set. With Volt's two electric motors and engaging the ICE it seems like going backward to a complex system.

Seems like Volt is trying too hard to be all things to all people and really missed the EV market where it was expected to perform. Looks like Leaf is the only player in its market function and price point. Volt just misses having any sort of market nitch. I hope Volt does well but I do not see it going very far unless it is changed significantly in the next version.

i dont think there is a set speed that this happens at. i think its a decision made by the onboard charge computer that transfers drive power directly to the wheels when its determined that charging the batteries would be detrimental.

in a hill climbing scenario, batteries would overheat so i think the switchover could happen at any speed.

 

[garygid]

The most important issue is NOT what you, or I, or even GM calls the Volt, but whether it works well in practical use.

The 2010 Prius seems to work well, and be nicely integrated, even though the Prius is FAR from "simple". However the "complexity" needs to be WELL managed by the car's control systems. That is a considerably non-trivial task.

At least be thankful that Microsoft is not programming the Volt. They are not, right?

The Second most important issue is how the different government agencies decide to "class" the Volt for their many regulatory purposes: taxing, registration, charging, parking, HOV lane access, rebates, and tax credits are just a few.

 

[decrypt]

Bottom line, this is bad press for EVs.

One has to wonder whether GM is once again attempting to intentionally sabotage its efforts.

 

[cdub]

kinda wondering how many battery packs blew up from thermal runaway in Colorado??
:shock:

Huh? Well that proves the leaf's better technology. Because they're magnesium it's impossible for them to catch fire... according to my tour.

 

[indyflick]

Here's GM's damage control statement on the issue of the Voltec electric drive unit.

For me the Volt has been an endless series of disappointments. At first I saw this really cool looking concept car which purportedly was to be a serial hybrid with a large electric drive motor, Li-ion pack good for ~40 miles, with and a highly efficient Atkinson cycle (rumor) genset. GM said the Volt was a platform for future vehicles such as the Cadillac Converj. From there it has been all down hill. About a year ago GM said the genset would be an off-the-shelf Otto cycle engine. The the Cadillac Converj was killed. After that the Volt concept car turned into something which looks more like a Camry. Now we learn that all of their hype that the Volt was truly a serial hybrid was basically BS.

There's a marketing adage which says, "if you can't be first at something, find something to be first at". Originally I believed GM was employing that strategy with the Volt. They obviously couldn't be first with a hybrid, Toyota owns that segment. So going serial hybrid was brilliant. Now, I see the Volt as simply an also ran. Time will tell if the Volt hybrid is more advanced than Toyota's version of the same technology or not. But, you may say, what difference does it make if it works? Well if the ICE now has two duties (genset and as a drive engine) then it can't be highly optimized to be only a genset. Also, the Volt, as it turns out, is a highly complex hybrid system (like the Prius) in which the systems are integrated mechanically, electrically, and with computer control. Toyota has a decade lead over GM in that technology. However, with a true serial hybrid, the mechanical integration of course is eliminated from the drive train, making the overall vehicle simpler and enabling individual component optimization over subsequent generations for their specific purpose.

 

[Azrich]

"But is it really an electric car?"

This title is part of a blog by Alan Boyle, Science Editor for MSNBC, who is in the process of driving a Volt from Seattle to San Francisco. He is on his second and final day of the road trip. He has had Volt engineers join him for part of the trip. He is blogging along the way and has some videos too. See the blog at:

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/electric-road-trip

 

[planet4ever]

So, ONE (the Main) Electric motor can drive the Volt's wheels via the Sun gear to the Planetary gears (with the outer ring clamped), right?

Or, a SECOND source of torque can also help drive the wheels (one driving the sun-gear and the 2nd driving the outer ring gear), right?

Then, is the second source of torque:
1. the electric generator, running as a motor (ICE not turning), or
2. the ICE powered on and driving the ring gear (and possibly spinning the generator), or
3. both the ICE and the generator (acting as a motor) providing power, or
4. can be any of the three above, depending upon clutches and the speed/power requirements?

#4 is quite true but, until proven wrong, I will continue to believe that GM hasn't really lied to us, so that in CD mode the answer is #1. The patent application does show a clutch between the ICE and the generator it can connect to.

 

[planet4ever]

When the car reaches 70 mph the main motor spins too fast to be maximally efficient, and a clutch disengages the ring from the case. This allows the second electric motor to participate and both motors act in parallel to reach speeds of 101 mph with adequate power.

Yup, yup, and yup. I completely understand how it works, pretty neat system for sure. I admire the system. I hate the fact that they tried to market this as an EV at all, they even made up a EV-RE category.... but they did it for a truly hybrid system.

And as far as the quote "In practice, hybrid vehicles typically require both sources - engine and battery - to provide full vehicle performance capability" To meet the full performance of the car the GAS ENGINE IS REQUIRED, unless you mean to tell me that 70MPH+ is not part of full performance?

It sure doesn't sound like you understand. (color highlighting added)

 

[smkettner]

Only the programming engineer knows exactly what engages when and under what circumstances.
The point is that VOLT in not an EV as promised.

 

[mitch672]

Only the programming engineer knows exactly what engages when and under what circumstances.
The point is that VOLT in not an EV as promised.

Its not a PURE EV, it's more of a Plug in Prius, with a 25-50 mile electric range.

Of course it's no better or worse than what Toyota has been doing for 10 years, except it has the large EV pack, to give it some amount of pure EV.. personally, I would wait for the 2012 Plug in Prius (or convert the 2010 I already own), 10 years of experience with a company that will stand behind it. Where will GM be in 10 years? you really think they will support this mutant one of a kind vehicle for the long term? Its an overpriced Prius on steroids, 1st generation Hybrid from a company that has never supported hybrids, and in fact has openly OPPOSED them.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Only the programming engineer knows exactly what engages when and under what circumstances.
The point is that VOLT in not an EV as promised.

Its not a PURE EV, it's more of a Plug in Prius, with a 25-50 mile electric range.

Of course it's no better or worse than what Toyota has been doing for 10 years, except it has the large EV pack, to give it some amount of pure EV.. personally, I would wait for the 2012 Plug in Prius (or convert the 2010 I already own), 10 years of experience with a company that will stand behind it. Where will GM be in 10 years? you really think they will support this mutant one of a kind vehicle for the long term? Its an overpriced Prius on steroids, 1st generation Hybrid from a company that has never supported hybrids, and in fact has openly OPPOSED them.

The general public won't care. In the end, they'll look only at the price, the MPG and how long it takes (and how) to charge. The EV/PHEV argument won't enter their mind unless they're an EV enthusiast.

 

[smkettner]

The general public won't care. In the end, they'll look only at the price, the MPG and how long it takes (and how) to charge. The EV/PHEV argument won't enter their mind unless they're an EV enthusiast.

Two out of three criteria are not looking competitive.

 

[mitch672]

The general public won't care. In the end, they'll look only at the price, the MPG and how long it takes (and how) to charge. The EV/PHEV argument won't enter their mind unless they're an EV enthusiast.

Two out of three criteria are not looking competitive.

Yes, not only is it a clone of the Prius, it's a bad clone, that gets mediocre mileage for a pricetag of $17K more than a base Prius. But wait you say, it can go 40 miles on low cost electricty... The general public will not care, not for $17K more. Gas would have to be $6-10/gallon for the Volt to take off... and even then, the range extended mileage is WORSE than a Prius, so for long trips, you would still be better off in a real Prius.

 

[johnr]

Is this a Volt-bashing party? Seriously, calm down ppl. I don't see what the big deal is. A little engineering change that probably makes the car more efficient and everyone gets all worked up over it. As long as the battery has a decent level of charge and you're not speeding, the engine will not run anyway. The Volt is a great car for its particular niche. The Leaf is great for its niche. And pickup trucks are great for hauling things around. So there.

 

[mitch672]

I don't care either way, I was never going to buy a Volt.

Once the initial Volthead enthusiam is done with, the Volt will not sell, that is the point.
The general public will not accept the $41K price, for what the vehicle delivers.

That's the bottom line.

GM has set back EVs a good number of years with the Volt as delivered, but, that was probably their goal anyway, now wasn't it?

 

[cdub]

Here GM goes... bashing EV cars again with their new ad campaign:

http://www.plugincars.com/chevy-wil...gn=Feed:+PluginCars+(PluginCars.com+RSS+Feed)

But in its push to sell the Volt as a mountain-climbing, country-crossing freedom machine, Chevy has also chosen to return to a theme that has drawn the ire of fuel-efficient driving's most passionate fans. The tag-line for the forthcoming Volt campaign? "It's more car than electric."

In the past, we've heard the Volt described as a "real car," (with the implication being that limited range plug-ins are not.) Then, reports came out that GM had trademarked the phrase "range anxiety," presumably for the sake of using it in future marketing efforts. So is Chevy planning to promote its extended-range plug-in by building the perception that other electric cars are mere novelty vehicles? Whether that's the main purpose of the messaging we've seen so far or simply an unfortunate consequence, it would certainly appear so.

The strategy is problematic not only because of its potential market ramifications for pure-electric vehicles, but because GM may very well be doing just as much damage to its own plug-in as it is to the Nissan LEAF or forthcoming Ford Focus EV. In its determination to sell the Volt to consumers who might be inclined to write off electric vehicles as the fashionable transportation toys of urban elites, GM risks reinforcing those stereotypes in such a way that could seriously undermine its efforts to sell electric driving in the future.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, this topic certainly flared up in a hurry!

I was excited about the Volt in the same way that I'm excited for the PHEV Prius. However, the thing I was hoping for in the Volt was a "simpler" transmission to avoid the whole dual power train issue. This is what I'm most upset about with the recent information.

It seems to me that rather than making a simpler system, they went EXTREMELY complex. I have a CVT (belt-driven) in my 2005 Nissan Murano, and even now Nissan says the system is too complex to repair. Anything goes wrong, and you have to replace the entire tranny to the tune of about $5k. What do you think the Volt's price for a problem is, after your warranty is up? Holy cow!

Having driven it last weekend, I'm less enthused about the volt than I was before. Not because "they lied" or anything, but for these reasons:
1) Overly complex drive train
2) Price point is luxury, but the driving experience is not (even factoring in that I'm willing to pay a premium for the technology)
3) Small vehicle, Prius-sized, when I thought it was a bit larger
4) Rear visibility (it sucks)

Now, I was impressed that it handles quite well, has a lot of power (in range extended mode, I wasn't able to drive in pure EV mode), and it was kind of fun to drive. Much more so than the current Prius (which I drove a couple weeks ago).

I would consider the Prius (phev) and Volt to be similar vehicles, but in different classes. Think Corolla vs. BMW 3 series. Do you want to focus on the fuel economy and reliability, or do you want the fun experience? For me, the Prius PHEV wins out hands down, but if the volt was similar in price, THEN it would be a tough car.

One other point, people have been complaining about the fuel economy on the Volt. For me, that's not a big deal, because very rarely would it be going into extended driving mode. I would guess that at least 90% of miles would be in pure EV mode (again, for my families use of this vehicle). But then again, that's why I'm really interested in the Leaf, because 100 mile range is WAY more than enough for us.