need help counteracting naysayers who are doing Leaf bashing

Here are some links to sites where people are doing old time EV bashing. We need not to let this go unanswered. Can some one help, please? thanks, Fran
Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased. Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?
Posted by allenmet (19 comments )
February 2, 2012 6:22 AM (PST)



You fogot to mention the biggest reason....cost. Most people do not want to wait 7 years to recover the additional cost of an electric car. Price needs to come down before demand will pick up.
Posted by dmack747 (39 comments )

I agree with their statements.

I don't agree with Warren Buffet, that in 20 years, all cars will be electric (he's a major investor in BYD).

The cost of batteries needs to come down (it will)

We need oil to not get cheap (not so sure on this one)

We need the infrastructure of charging stations

sullyfahs said:

Here are some links to sites where people are doing old time EV bashing. We need not to let this go unanswered. Can some one help, please? thanks, Fran

Click to expand...

I have to say I agree with them in this case as well. What they seem to be referring to is mass-adoption. There are plenty of things that will need to happen before mass-adoption. BUT - none of those things will prevent people from buying these cars. That is what ticks me off when people start saying that "nobody will ever buy those" because of blah blah blah.

Let them bash away!!!!!!!! I have two thousand miles on my new Leaf and have not used ANY gas. Let them keep emptying their wallets at four dollars a gallon. I was a naysayer once myself, as I'm sure most on this web site were at one time. We will never see an all electric world but we will see at least half the gas vehicles off the road in the next ten years or so, once the infrastructure is in place. I have two ice vehicles also and they do serve a purpose right now, just hope I don't wait to long to sell them........... :roll:

It's really hard to disagree with either comment...

sullyfahs said:

Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased. Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?

You forgot to mention the biggest reason....cost. Most people do not want to wait 7 years to recover the additional cost of an electric car. Price needs to come down before demand will pick up.

Click to expand...

TomT said:

It's really hard to disagree with either comment...

sullyfahs said:

Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased. Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?

You forgot to mention the biggest reason....cost. Most people do not want to wait 7 years to recover the additional cost of an electric car. Price needs to come down before demand will pick up.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I dont follow this above from TOMT or other similar comments. In fact, they sound allot like the "tax preparer" who thinks the credit is not a credit.
MY Leaf cost me 20k, plus tax.
where is the additional cost that I must wait 7 years to get back?
i dont see that at all!
I have blue tooth phone and other toys, and I get to drive HOV lane.

In 20 years, all cars on the road will be electric. -Warren Buffett. November 29, 2009

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If Warren means totally battery electric, then proabaly not very likely. However, if he meant "electrified" then I would tend to agree with his statement. GM's eAssist (mild hybrid) is an excellent example of this. That technology will improve, get cheaper, increase MPG even more, and become pervasive across the name plates. The net effect will be economies of scale for Li-Ion batteries thus reducing the total pack costs for BEVs over time.

As for BEVs taking 7 years for their payback, well that presupposes that the primary reason the BEV was purchased in the first place was to only to reduce operational costs. That's certainly not my case. Personally I'm simply trying to get off of oil, regardless of the payback. Also, I really like the LEAF as a vehicle regardless of what propels it. Lastly, even though I mostly charge at night with ToU rates, I like being also able to charge my car with energy I produce off my roof.

Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased.

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This persons mindset is formed from owning an ICE. Turns out charging an EV at home, at night, works great! It's even more convenient than going to a gas station, waiting in line, filling up while smelling carcinogens for 10 minutes. Cough....cough...man I really should get that looked at...

Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?

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No, they are not needed most in the cities. Most large cities already have mass transit. A lot of people in NYC don't own a car or drive at all, they don't need to. (For LA and San Diego their point is more valid) BEVs are needed most in the suburbs for commuters and for daily errands. For occasional long trip for vacation, just rent a gasoline car.

TomT said:

It's really hard to disagree with either comment...

sullyfahs said:

Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased. Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?

You forgot to mention the biggest reason....cost. Most people do not want to wait 7 years to recover the additional cost of an electric car. Price needs to come down before demand will pick up.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Oh, I don't know. I think inexperienced commenters (naysayers) fall trap to the gas station paradigm where they think to refuel you have to go somewhere and wait for the refueling to happen. As EV owners we know that the majority of charging takes place during times when the car (and we) is idle (i.e. at night or while we are at work).

Now does this mean that they are inappropriate in cities? Well certainly there are probably a lot of people that park on the street in cities and yes, that wouldn't work. But for people whose normal parking spot is in a garage or carport or parking deck or even a private lot, there are opportunities to install charging stations there. In my area at least, the vast majority of cars you see commuting come and go from single family homes in the suburbs that are perfectly adequate for home charging.

I would not care what anybody says about my electric Leaf. It is my decision, my money and I am saving money, helping environment and not supporting oil companies, period.

Screw them for being ignorant and narrow minded. And by the way, electric cars are not for everyone at this time. Just keeping it real.

Did I just say this, yes I did. Lol

Ian B

MrIanB said:

I would not care what anybody says about my electric Leaf. It is my decision, my money and I am saving money, helping environment and not supporting oil companies, period.

Screw them for being ignorant and narrow minded. And by the way, electric cars are not for everyone at this time. Just keeping it real.

Did I just say this, yes I did. Lol

Ian B

Click to expand...

That's all well and good, but if we want to ensure the future of EVs then we need to defend the lies that big oil is spreading about them and stem the brainwashing that is occurring out there. To really get the ball rolling and ensure that the infrastructure IS built and the volumes necessary for bringing down battery prices, etc. are to happen that we've got to convince larger and larger numbers of people that EVs are real and are appropriate for them. If they're only hearing one side of the story, that won't happen.

Here are some links to sites where people are doing old time EV bashing. We need not to let this go unanswered. Can some one help, please? thanks, Fran

Click to expand...

How is asking a legitimate question bashing?

Remember that in a number of areas, the only rebate available is the Federal one and depending on your tax situation, you may not see any of THAT credit unless you lease. One can not make a general statement based on only one's specific circumstances and location... Plus, these incentives will not be around forever - guaranteed - so eventually, EVs will have to stand simply on their own merits and purchase cost. Thus, I think both of the OP comments in question are valid, depending on the prospective purchasers own particular circumstances.

thankyouOB said:

TomT said:

It's really hard to disagree with either comment...

sullyfahs said:

Until electric charging stations are as prevalent as gasoline stations, and the recharge time is reduced, not many of these vehicles will be purchased. Where they are needed most, in cities, how do you recharge them? Drop an electric wire from the 12th floor of an apartment building to the street?

You forgot to mention the biggest reason....cost. Most people do not want to wait 7 years to recover the additional cost of an electric car. Price needs to come down before demand will pick up.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I dont follow this above from TOMT or other similar comments. In fact, they sound allot like the "tax preparer" who thinks the credit is not a credit.
MY Leaf cost me 20k, plus tax.
where is the additional cost that I must wait 7 years to get back?
i dont see that at all!
I have blue tooth phone and other toys, and I get to drive HOV lane.

Click to expand...

Train said:

How is asking a legitimate question bashing?

Click to expand...

When it comes from a troll.

TomT,
I am glad you are now qualifying your answer, adding circumstances and future issues, etc.

As to the entire question of the post, all I ever say to folks is: "I never buy gas."
I just had a conversation with a guy on the street who had been at my home earlier selling cable upgrades. I drove by in silent mode and told him that I havent bought gas since April of last year. He asked how far I could go? "I can go almost 100 miles without charging, as long as I dont go more than 60 on the freeway parts."
Typically, I ask folks--donkeynaysayyers included:
"Do you like buying gas?"

No one ever says: Yes.
NO ONE. NOT EVER![

walter said:

Let them bash away!!!!!!!! I have two thousand miles on my new Leaf and have not used ANY gas. Let them keep emptying their wallets at four dollars a gallon. I was a naysayer once myself, as I'm sure most on this web site were at one time. We will never see an all electric world but we will see at least half the gas vehicles off the road in the next ten years or so, once the infrastructure is in place. I have two ice vehicles also and they do serve a purpose right now, just hope I don't wait to long to sell them........... :roll:

Click to expand...

Impossible. There are about 245 million light duty vehicles in the U.S. fleet. Cumulative sales of hybrids are just over 2 million since they were introduced, with the Prius making up for just over half:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States#Historical_sales_1999-2011" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's about 0.9% of the fleet, assuming every single one was still on the road. It took Toyota 10.5 years to sell a million Prii in the U.S. From January through August 2011, 173,916 hybrids (all models, including 'hollow' hybrids) and 9,428 plug-ins (Leaf/Volt/Smart ED) were sold, out of total U.S. auto sales of 8,436,080. In other words, hybrids made up just over 2% of the sales, and plug-ins a bit over 0.1%.

see http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-clean-diesel-sales-dashboard/august-2011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Average replacement age is now up to 11 years, although that may go down a bit if the economy keeps picking up. Plug-ins are a lot more expensive than HEVs because of their larger battery packs, are only salable due to incentives, and even then are largely limited to early adopters. Battery price/kWh will have to fall by 1/2 or even 3/4 (and that will only equal the size of the federal tax credit, which will go away), combined with a considerable sustained boost in gas prices, before EVs will be cost-effective for the mainstream consumer. If you're buying one now it's for reasons other than best value for the money, which is fine, but it needs to be understood.

GRA said:

Battery price/kWh will have to fall by 1/2 or even 3/4 (and that will only equal the size of the federal tax credit, which will go away), combined with a considerable sustained boost in gas prices, before EVs will be cost-effective for the mainstream consumer.

Click to expand...

While the battery pack is obviously the single most costly component in an EV, we shouldn't underestimate the potential impact of cost reductions in other areas, i.e., the drivetrain as a whole. Omitting the battery from consideration, an EV drivetrain is inherently simpler than an ICE drivetrain, and with mass production should be less costly. Today, however, I'm guessing that each LEAF's drivetrain costs Nissan a pretty penny; much more "cost optimization" is almost certainly needed.

With the current government incentives, especially in states that offer rebates, my opinion is that the net price of a LEAF is quite reasonable. Among the general public, I think there is some pre-incentive sticker shock, though, plus a great deal of reluctance to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that in their eyes is unproven. It is telling that, according to survey results just reported by Consumer Reports, 30% of the public is concerned about electrical shock hazards with EVs. :!: While I appreciate cool, new technology, I primarily decided to become an early adopter of the LEAF to vote with my dollars for EVs, and to play a role in educating the public of their benefits.

lpickup said:

MrIanB said:

I would not care what anybody says about my electric Leaf. It is my decision, my money and I am saving money, helping environment and not supporting oil companies, period.

Screw them for being ignorant and narrow minded. And by the way, electric cars are not for everyone at this time. Just keeping it real.

Did I just say this, yes I did. Lol

Ian B

Click to expand...

That's all well and good, but if we want to ensure the future of EVs then we need to defend the lies that big oil is spreading about them and stem the brainwashing that is occurring out there. To really get the ball rolling and ensure that the infrastructure IS built and the volumes necessary for bringing down battery prices, etc. are to happen that we've got to convince larger and larger numbers of people that EVs are real and are appropriate for them. If they're only hearing one side of the story, that won't happen.

Click to expand...

They say "living well is the best revenge". I think the same goes for EV advocacy. Letting my neighbors and other road users see my EV as a "normal" car day in and day out probably is a better argument at this point than any amount of words I can say. But when I am asked, I will enthusiastically give my reasons for going this route. I am learning that it does not good trying to convince them that it's right ( or even feasible ) for them. Best if they come to that conclusion themselves.

Remember that real life experiences are what influence us the most. People can say whatever they want on blogs and online sites, but what matters is individual experiences that you can connect to. Telling your friends and co-workers about your positive experiences with your Leaf has a much greater effect that trying to rebut online comments.
Let them have a test drive!

EVs may or not be the ultimate future of personal transit. Maybe ten years from now, someone will invent a ICE that gets 250mpg on used oil from McDonalds deep fryers(andwe certainly won't run out of that!). But right now, EVs are the only game in town if you want to have zero emissions, protect yourself from gas price jumps, and stop sending your hard earned dollars to foreign dictators who wish us ill.

abasile said:

GRA said:

Battery price/kWh will have to fall by 1/2 or even 3/4 (and that will only equal the size of the federal tax credit, which will go away), combined with a considerable sustained boost in gas prices, before EVs will be cost-effective for the mainstream consumer.

Click to expand...

While the battery pack is obviously the single most costly component in an EV, we shouldn't underestimate the potential impact of cost reductions in other areas, i.e., the drivetrain as a whole. Omitting the battery from consideration, an EV drivetrain is inherently simpler than an ICE drivetrain, and with mass production should be less costly. Today, however, I'm guessing that each LEAF's drivetrain costs Nissan a pretty penny; much more "cost optimization" is almost certainly needed.

Click to expand...

I've been reading a RAND study from 2002 on the cost effectiveness or (lack of same) of the CARB ZEV mandate. Whether or not you agree with the conclusions, the information contained on the price and likely cost reduction curves of various levels of production over 10 years of BEV and HEV components is very useful data. Motors were a pretty mature technology, motor controllers had dropped rapidly in price in the year prior to the study, and new-tech batteries were the biggest unknown. Although Lithium-ion batteries were described the authors were cautious about predicting future costs for them, but did cover the costs of lead-acid and NMH batteries at great extent, with likely cost curves. They also showed the costs of ICE components that wouldn't be needed, as well as life-cycle costs of the various options including maintenance/replacement.

abasile said:

With the current government incentives, especially in states that offer rebates, my opinion is that the net price of a LEAF is quite reasonable. Among the general public, I think there is some pre-incentive sticker shock, though, plus a great deal of reluctance to spend tens of thousands of dollars on something that in their eyes is unproven. It is telling that, according to survey results just reported by Consumer Reports, 30% of the public is concerned about electrical shock hazards with EVs. :!: While I appreciate cool, new technology, I primarily decided to become an early adopter of the LEAF to vote with my dollars for EVs, and to play a role in educating the public of their benefits.

Click to expand...

Right, much the same reason I bought solar modules and then started selling AE systems 20 years ago. I told potential customers up front that if they had utility power available, they would be going AE for reasons other than least-cost. The ones who thought they were being ripped off by their utility were quickly diasabused of the belief that AE was going to save them money, and I'd then show them how they could cut down the size of their loads in a cost-effective way. Or they'd say that's not why I want to do it, and so long as that was understood I'd be happy to sell them a system.

And then there were the people who fit in one of the niches where AE made economic sense, and it was good .

BEVs suffer from the same limitations that they did 100 years ago, even though the goal posts have moved somewhat: low energy density (short range), lack of charging infrastructure and long recharge times, plus high price vice an ICE. Until any two of the first three plus the price issue can be solved, EVs will remain niche products. As it is, EVs require customers to pay more and get less - less range, performance and utility. The number of consumers willing to accept those limitations to get the benefits of EVs will remain small until the issues above have been solved or significantly ameliorated.

A study or two:

http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/11/03/bloomberg-study-only-1-in-9-vehicle-purchasers-likely-able-to-purchase-a-nissan-leaf/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/plug-in-buyers-quite-different-than-average-car-buyers/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA said:

As it is, EVs require customers to pay more and get less - less range, performance and utility.

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While I'd certainly agree with you on "less range", and by extension some degree of utility since a BEV cannot be used on longer trips, I don't agree on "less performance".

While it's not a sportscar, I enjoy driving the LEAF more than any other car I've owned. I love the responsiveness of the drivetrain and how smooth and quiet it is. From my perspective, as one who has never owned a car with a net purchase cost above $28K, the LEAF is a luxury car for routine, everyday driving.