What if We Didn't Need An EVSE?

http://www.bnet.com/blog/electric-c...-could-work/2280?tag=content;drawer-container

One of the biggest obstacles to getting electric cars on the road –- now and going back more than 100 years – is the lack of coordinated charging networks. It’s the classic chicken and egg problem, and it’s bedeviled EV makers for a long time. Now there’s finally some momentum to get charging installed by leading players like Coulomb, ECOtality, AeroVironment, Clipper Creek and others. They’re even making “designer” charging stations that could make anyone proud to plug in. But suppose there was no need for complicated and expensive “smart” charging stations at all? What if all you needed was a simple outlet?

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I think for the near future, simply physics dictate what type of charging systems we use. You simply can't get enough juice out of a 110v outlet to do what you need without melting something.

One day, computers will use light instead of electrons, and will store data on non-physical devices (bubble memory, etc.). But you do not NOT buy a computer today because you're waiting for what might be.

This first round of EV's and associated charging problems are necessary to start the change in public opinion and to start a new direction in energy research. They're the baby steps before running a marathon.

I contend that no evse is needed. Just a grounded plug attached to the vehicle with the appropriate existing NEMA plug on the end.
Same as any other appliance. Possibly require a GFI outlet and that is it.

Jimmydreams said:

I think for the near future, simply physics dictate what type of charging systems we use. You simply can't get enough juice out of a 110v outlet to do what you need without melting something.

One day, computers will use light instead of electrons, and will store data on non-physical devices (bubble memory, etc.). But you do not NOT buy a computer today because you're waiting for what might be.

This first round of EV's and associated charging problems are necessary to start the change in public opinion, to start a new direction in energy research. They're the baby steps before running a marathon.

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Aptly stated , Jimmydreams. I agree with you 100%

I contend people who say few protections are needed don't understand the very real dangers of electrocution without those protections even for people who know the dangers of mixing a substantial current source and wet conditions, not to mention the uninformed and children. Perhaps there are some youtube videos that can graphically show examples of accidental self-electrocution via common unsafe practises, such as using an extension cord in wet outdoor conditions, to help illuminate the point.

Jimmydreams said:

You simply can't get enough juice out of a 110v outlet to do what you need without melting something.

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That is a function of how many hours a day you can spend charging the car vs the number of hours a day driving it. For the Leaf the ratio has to be more than about 10:1 for 110v to be workable.

That said, the L2 installation is going to be preferable.

smkettner said:

I contend that no evse is needed. Just a grounded plug attached to the vehicle with the appropriate existing NEMA plug on the end.
Same as any other appliance. Possibly require a GFI outlet and that is it.

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True, but explain to me what happens when you plug in a vehicle with a 16kw charger into an outlet that can only supply 3kw? How is that cord going to tell the charger what to do?

And if it has a GFI all you are eliminating is a cheap pilot circuit and a couple inexpensive relays. You need a standardized plug and there needs to be a way to tell the car charger the draw capability, you do need and EVSE to implement a safe universal standard and they will be inexpensive soon. Standard cords don't last long and they fail quickly. I charged without one for seven years on three vehicles and I'm glad there is a standard and the EVSE make complete sense and is needed, even if it is a "smart" J1772 cord without a relay for added safety.

EVDRIVER said:

smkettner said:

I contend that no evse is needed. Just a grounded plug attached to the vehicle with the appropriate existing NEMA plug on the end.
Same as any other appliance. Possibly require a GFI outlet and that is it.

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True, but explain to me what happens when you plug in a vehicle with a 16kw charger into an outlet that can only supply 3kw? How is that cord going to tell the charger what to do?

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The plug on the car would require the proper outlet with the proper circuit. NEMA already has 20a, 30a, 50a 240v grounded connectors.
If the car needs 50a you cannot plug into the others and vis-versa.

Just try plugging in your dryer to the wrong connector. It just will not fit.

I can see the evse for public use and a port on the front of the car. Although having three connectors behind a little door would not be a big deal either.
Door up, power off. Close door, power on. What is the big deal.

EVDRIVER said:

smkettner said:

I contend that no evse is needed. Just a grounded plug attached to the vehicle with the appropriate existing NEMA plug on the end.
Same as any other appliance. Possibly require a GFI outlet and that is it.

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True, but explain to me what happens when you plug in a vehicle with a 16kw charger into an outlet that can only supply 3kw? How is that cord going to tell the charger what to do?

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That's what the gray matter is for between our ears!

Actually, I'm almost willing to bet that there will be a gray market Chinese EVSE cable that is exactly a NEMA plug on one end and a J1772 connector on the other end, no noticeable control box or anything... Heck, maybe it will even be available for less than $50.

In all seriousness though, those of us that are intelligent enough to be able to know to check amperage ratings and be "smart" about our charging will find ways to do whatever we would like. There is a whole website dedicated to these "Makers" at makezine.com and at Instructables. They are crazy people willing to void all kinds of warranties!

In summary, if you don't want an EVSE you'll find a way around it. Personally, while I'm upset about the high initial prices I think that eventually they will be as common as plugs for a range, electric hot water heater, or electric dryer. I'm especially curious about how the market will respond to homes that already have EVSEs installed. Maybe once prices drop down, having one installed (or having a "pre-wired" location) will even be required in electrical codes!

Yes I agree. The whole business could be in the J connector. Signal generator and a power indicator. Under $100 sounds about right.

By definition, you'll always need an EVSE, but perhaps not a full-featured EVSE. From a PG&E presentation

Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE) - The conductors, including the ungrounded, grounded, and equipment grounding conductors, the electric vehicle connectors, attachment plugs, and all other fittings, devices, power outlets, or apparatuses installed specifically for the purpose of “safely” delivering energy from the premises wiring to the electric vehicle.

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You can segregate the EVSEs attributes into basically three buckets 1) costs saving (TOU, but the LEAF already has this feature built in so in that case not needed in my EVSE), 2) convenience (for example, GFI trip reset, that may have some value in rare cases), 3) safety (this is the paramount attribute of an EVSE).

From a safety perspective, the EV is not like an appliance. You don't connect your electric dryer to 240v outdoors in the rain. Also your electric dryer doesn't have an on board 24kWh battery pack in it. However, given that, if a simple, no feature, inexpensive safe "smart cord" with a J1772 could be created and certified, then it will likely be popular.

indyflick said:

From a safety perspective, the EV is not like an appliance. You don't connect your electric dryer to 240v outdoors in the rain. Also your electric dryer doesn't have an on board 24kWh battery pack in it. However, given that, if a simple, no feature, inexpensive safe "smart cord" with a J1772 could be created and certified, then it will likely be popular.

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The an appliance was an example of mating the correct power supply only.

For outside use lets compare it to an RV. RVs are generally 30a (120v, 3600w) or 50a (240v, 12000w) with two different plugs.
They get plugged in in all weather, carry large batteries with chargers and plenty of other stuff as it is both a vehicle and a home.
There is no GFI on the main connection. Yet it has not been a problem in 50 years.

smkettner said:

indyflick said:

From a safety perspective, the EV is not like an appliance. You don't connect your electric dryer to 240v outdoors in the rain. Also your electric dryer doesn't have an on board 24kWh battery pack in it. However, given that, if a simple, no feature, inexpensive safe "smart cord" with a J1772 could be created and certified, then it will likely be popular.

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The an appliance was an example of mating the correct power supply only.

For outside use lets compare it to an RV. RVs are generally 30a (120v, 3600w) or 50a (240v, 12000w) with two different plugs.
They get plugged in in all weather, carry large batteries with chargers and plenty of other stuff as it is both a vehicle and a home.
There is no GFI on the main connection. Yet it has not been a problem in 50 years.

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An RV is not the same as an EV, they don't have chargers and there are breakers right there. In addition they don't have the same duty cycle for use like public charging stations will have. This is all pointless since they are here to stay and it's about time we got rid of using the antiquated plugs for EVs that failed over and over and constantly tripped breakers you could not access.

RVs do have chargers. They have inverters. Onboard generators. Solar power. And large house batteries. You name it they have it.
The connectors are cycled rather frequently at an RV park. Maybe not always every day but very often cycled every day as one rolls out and another rolls in.

OK the breakers are there to turn power off before disconnecting and in my opinion most RVers do not bother.

If you had inaccessable breakers tripping with your previous EVs then you did not have the proper circuit installed plain and simple.

smkettner said:

RVs do have chargers. They have inverters. Onboard generators. Solar power. And large house batteries. You name it they have it.
The connectors are cycled rather frequently at an RV park. Maybe not always every day but very often cycled every day as one rolls out and another rolls in.

OK the breakers are there to turn power off before disconnecting and in my opinion most RVers do not bother.

If you had inaccessable breakers tripping with your previous EVs then you did not have the proper circuit installed plain and simple.

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Not 18kw chargers, you get my point and the duty cycle at an RV park is not a fraction on public chargers. There are more reasons to have an EVSE than not but you certainly can make your own cord and lobby that its a better idea, it sure did not move forward before. Just because an RV has a primitive solution does not mean it can't be improved.

While in general I'm not worried about warranties and have no problem hacking my own EVSE cable, that wasn't the point of the article I referenced.

One of the most important parts of public charging is making sure the user pays for the energy - and that was what I got from the article - that point of use metering is only one way to get the job done.

AndyH said:

While in general I'm not worried about warranties and have no problem hacking my own EVSE cable, that wasn't the point of the article I referenced.

One of the most important parts of public charging is making sure the user pays for the energy - and that was what I got from the article - that point of use metering is only one way to get the job done.

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Exactly. It seems most of those leaving comments here haven't read the article

I don't quite understand the technical aspect of what they're talking about - how a device on the utility side can identify what charging station is running and who plugged in, but apparently it's viable as they've already got one utility signed on.

johnr said:

AndyH said:

While in general I'm not worried about warranties and have no problem hacking my own EVSE cable, that wasn't the point of the article I referenced.

One of the most important parts of public charging is making sure the user pays for the energy - and that was what I got from the article - that point of use metering is only one way to get the job done.

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Exactly. It seems most of those leaving comments here haven't read the article

I don't quite understand the technical aspect of what they're talking about - how a device on the utility side can identify what charging station is running and who plugged in, but apparently it's viable as they've already got one utility signed on.

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The commercial EVSE's have built in cell data links, they can report their location, along with the amount of power being consumed. If the user identifies via an RFID (Aka "The Chargepoint Network"), then the power can be billed to that users account. Once the communication are standardized, the cars VIN could also he reported
via the signal lines on the J1772 standard, in the future

From the article.

One of the biggest obstacles to getting electric cars on the road –- now and going back more than 100 years – is the lack of coordinated charging networks.

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That's fundamentally incorrect. The vast majority of EVs will be charged at the home at night. Now I will say there will be those reluctant buyers who will be swayed to purchase an EV because of the charging infrastructure. But they will also end up nearly always charging at home.

It is unlikely that the LEAF will activate its charging without receiving a "proper" Control Pilot signal.