130 miles, 4 hours of charging and cold feet!

[Insureit1]

Well I thought I would put the LEAF to a test this week. On Tuesday the high temp. was 20 degrees. 3-4 days a week my round trip commute if 85 miles. But this Tuesday I had to make the usual commute and also meet a client. This would involve an extra 60 miles or so of range. Since the weather has turned very cold the range has dropped quite a bit. I pull out of my garage each morning with an indicated 106 miles of range on ECO. Since the 42 miles to my office is all highway and with a gradual incline the entire way, I have been getting to my office with 25-30 miles of range left. This would not normally be a problem because I can L2 charge at work to get the range needed to get back home. But on Tuesday I had to visit a client abut 25 miles away from my office. I arrived at my office at 9:00 am with 23 miles left. I charged from 9:00 to 1:30. I then go to client meeting with 88 miles of range left. Although trip is over 20 miles arrive with 72 miles left (some downhill driving). Leaving appt. I have 45 miles to get home. I had left the CC off the entire time but man were my feet freezing! So on the ride home I had to use the CC or risk frost bite. Arrived home about an hour later with 20 miles of range left.

The point of this is post is simple. With a bit of planning 100+ mile days are possible even with below freezing temps. While I don't mind planning my trips out I want to enjoy driving the LEAF every day like a regular car. In the 1000+ miles I have driven in the last month since purchasing the LEAF I have been able to just drive it without much thought. A longer range and more efficient heating would be nice for 90% of driving the range is more than acceptable. And I love the fact I have not been to a gas station in a month.

 

[Shaka]

Congrats! We're in Ohio, so a fellow cold-climate driver. I think that your points about range/mileage and "driving like a normal car" really hit home with a lot of people. When my wife traded in her Audi for the LEAF to give us a more economical commuter car, her first question was "can I just drive it like a normal car?" ... and for us, we can. Our daily commute is only 25 miles so we don't even have to charge at work like you do. And as such we do most of our daily driving in ECO mode, but with CC at 68-F in auto. And we rarely have to charge again.

Sure we could get more "bang for our buck" -- but we're still driving a ZEV, the grid is still cleaner than the equivalent of gasoline (and it isn't in urban areas but wherever the coal/etc are harvested). Some day I would love to get a solar roof at home, to make it even more green. For us, for now, there is a financial savings, a good feeling of what we're doing, etc. But I think mainstream EV acceptance will require, as you said, the ability to do 90% or more of your driving while treating the car as a normal, every day commuter (in the sense of how ICE's have been for years)....

 

[cwerdna]

Re: feet freezing, http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=10626&p=246361&hilit=foot+warmer#p246361" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a link to a possibly good foot warmer.

 

[ColumbiaRiverGorge]

Someone recommended this on the forum last winter if your feet get cold. You could use a 12 volt, waterproof, carbon fiber motorcycle seat heater under the pedals to warm you feet area for only 4 amps of power. The high setting will have a constant range between 120°F to 125°F. The low setting ranges between 110°F to 115°F. 1 Pad 9"x15"
Pad is approximately 1/32" thick. Length can be trimmed to any size with any scissor, width cannot be trimmed and has to stay at 9"... $70. 

http://69.94.77.153/product/carbon_fibe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sil-03.htm

 

[downeykp]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

Someone recommended this on the forum last winter if your feet get cold. You could use a 12 volt, waterproof, carbon fiber motorcycle seat heater under the pedals to warm you feet area for only 4 amps of power. The high setting will have a constant range between 120°F to 125°F. The low setting ranges between 110°F to 115°F. 1 Pad 9"x15"
Pad is approximately 1/32" thick. Length can be trimmed to any size with any scissor, width cannot be trimmed and has to stay at 9"... $70. 

http://69.94.77.153/product/carbon_fibe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sil-03.htm

 

[cwerdna]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

Well, the '13 Leaf SV and SL w/the hybrid heater system (includes heat pump) should reduce the heather power consumption considerably. It doesn't solve the problem of the battery degradation in hot climates though...

Even Ford on their now defunct Escape Hybrid decided to include a rear AC evaporator to provide cool air to the NiMH batteries (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11338" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. Don't think it solves the problem of baking when sitting turned off though.

 

[ELROY]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

Someone recommended this on the forum last winter if your feet get cold. You could use a 12 volt, waterproof, carbon fiber motorcycle seat heater under the pedals to warm you feet area for only 4 amps of power. The high setting will have a constant range between 120°F to 125°F. The low setting ranges between 110°F to 115°F. 1 Pad 9"x15"
Pad is approximately 1/32" thick. Length can be trimmed to any size with any scissor, width cannot be trimmed and has to stay at 9"... $70. 

http://69.94.77.153/product/carbon_fibe" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... sil-03.htm

The heater can blow comfortably warm after you give it time to warm up. However, 4.5kw is absurd compared to the efficient AC compressor which sometimes only seems to draw 250watts or so.

 

[Nubo]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

Like anything else, there are limitations. You can extend the boundary of one limitation by compromising with another. Yes, if you wish to push the edges of range you can give up heat. That does not support the conclusion that it "isn't made for" cold weather. If not pushing range you needn't sacrifice heat. The car doesn't satisfy all needs; anyone here acknowledges that. It's up to each potential buyer what level of capabilities works for their situation.

For $30,000 you get a nicely-appointed, highway-capable battery-electric vehicle. Can you find a better one of those for that price?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The original link that I had posted earlier for a carbon fiber (motorcycle) seat heater didn't work, so here's a different one. I suspect that if these are as rugged and waterproof as they should be for seat duty, they should also work for foot warmers and BATTERY warmers!!!

http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/carbon-fiber-seat-heater-kit.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=19136088729&utm_content=pla&gclid=CMa97KqdhbUCFUjZQgodV0sALQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High Temperature is 131°F and Low Temperature is 109°F. Current Draw is 4 Amps on Hi & 1.5 Amps on Lo

2 Carbon Fiber Element (instead of copper wire) pads, 11" wide x 11" long and is as thick as 4 pieces of regular printer paper.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Warmseats/936/WSHMATV/10002/-1?ht=10&CAWELAID=1710643438&catargetid=1784163585&&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CNv655mchbUCFSFyQgodPHEA1A" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Warmseats #936-WSHMATV
Waterproof Carbon Fiber Seat Heater
One Panel
1.5-2 AMPS
Dimensions: 7-3/4'' x 15-1/2''

$76.99

Seat heaters are made by the same company that supplies about 5 million OE seat heaters per year to international clients such as Audi, BMW, Ford, Honda, Porsche, Samsung, Volvo, and Volkswagen. The patented paper-thin carbon fiber heating panel installs between the seat cover and cushion.

Features:
11" x 22" heating panels for any make/model
3-position illuminated switch (Off, Low, High)
Built-in thermostat (Low = 95°, High = 115°)
Prewired relay harness with fuse
2-wire hookup
Works with adjustable and power seats (cloth, vinyl, or leather)
24" power lead to seat harness
3 year/36,000 mile warranty

Here's a pretty cool battery heater:

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Free-Shipping-Flexible-Silicone-Rubber-Heater-240-300mm-ODM-OEM-No-MOQ/210086_712028425.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Price:
US $62.25 / piece

Bulk Price:
US $48.56 / piece (2 pieces or more)

Vehicle Battery Heater Flexible Silicone Rubber Heater

Size: 240*300mm (9.4" * 11.8")

Power: 200W

Voltage: 110V

Fixing: 3M adhesive backing

Why Battery Heater?

Cold temperatures dramatically reduces the effectiveness of the chemical reactions within the battery, while increasing the battery’s internal resistance. These factors cause a reduction in cranking [or shortened range in an EV] and batteries left in a discharged state can freeze and cause damage in cold temperatures.

 

[tps]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

I disagree. This past week here in Philadelphia has had some rather cold (for us) temps of around 10F - 20F. The LEAF does GREAT in the cold. I've not bothered to preheat the cabin; the heated steering wheel and seat warmer are good enough for the few minutes it takes for the cabin heater to warm up (which is much quicker than a normal car). The electric motor works just fine with no warmup. It's a real change from a normal car to be able to jump into the LEAF, turn it on, and have it drive completely normally right from the start despite the cold. The LEAF has been the best cold weather car I've ever driven.

 

[Insureit1]

While the LEAF does have an MSRP over $30k I don't consider it a $30k car. My lease will cost me less than $7000 over the next two years for a car that I considered perhaps one of the best commuters cars made. I have spent more money for lesser cars that were not nearly as nice as the LEAF. I don't have cold feet every day. I knew I had to stretch the mileage and kept the heat off until I had enough range to make it home. The older I get the more I hate cold weather. I drove the LEAF running around all weekend and used the heat and it worked great. I am looking forward to the warmer temps. this spring.

 

[TonyWilliams]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

I disagree. This past week here in Philadelphia has had some rather cold (for us) temps of around 10F - 20F. The LEAF does GREAT in the cold. I've not bothered to preheat the cabin; the heated steering wheel and seat warmer are good enough for the few minutes it takes for the cabin heater to warm up (which is much quicker than a normal car). The electric motor works just fine with no warmup. It's a real change from a normal car to be able to jump into the LEAF, turn it on, and have it drive completely normally right from the start despite the cold. The LEAF has been the best cold weather car I've ever driven.

You missed the whole point to the issues... the battery electric car is limited in range compared to an oil burning one, and in addition, cold weather can severely impact that limited range.

The methods employed to mitigate this range loss include preheating the car and driving without the heater.

So, the LEAF can do well in snow, provided it is operated well within the limited range of the vehicle.

 

[tps]

$30000 + and an owner needs to do all of this to stay warm? Does anyone else see a problem here?
This car is not made for driving in extremely hot or cold weather.

I disagree. This past week here in Philadelphia has had some rather cold (for us) temps of around 10F - 20F. The LEAF does GREAT in the cold. I've not bothered to preheat the cabin; the heated steering wheel and seat warmer are good enough for the few minutes it takes for the cabin heater to warm up (which is much quicker than a normal car). The electric motor works just fine with no warmup. It's a real change from a normal car to be able to jump into the LEAF, turn it on, and have it drive completely normally right from the start despite the cold. The LEAF has been the best cold weather car I've ever driven.

You missed the whole point to the issues... the battery electric car is limited in range compared to an oil burning one, and in addition, cold weather can severely impact that limited range.

The methods employed to mitigate this range loss include preheating the car and driving without the heater.

So, the LEAF can do well in snow, provided it is operated well within the limited range of the vehicle.

Of course if you CHOOSE to drive with the heat off, because you're trying to get more range than the LEAF comfortably has, you may be uncomforable. I completely understand this. But to say that the car is not designed for cold weather, just because a few people have a problem with its cold weather range is not right. The LEAF does wonderfully in the cold, better than a normal car, when it is used for the daily commuting distances for which it was designed. So long as I can stay within its range limitations, and this will only become easier as the charging network is built out, I'll not be going back to an ICE vehicle.

Normally, I charge overnight to 80%, and during the summer this gives me a very comfortable range margin. In the cold weather, it would probably work, too, but I'd be at LBW every night when I got home. I don't think it's prudent to run that close to empty in the cold weather, bad weather can cause traffic tie-ups, detours, etc, so I plug into 120V to charge while I'm in the office. Given the current EV support infrastructure (mainly lack thereof), I think driving an EV is somewhat like fuel reserves and filing an alternate on your IFR flight plan, you have to plan ahead. Though I haven't flown for many years (lost medical due to a brain tumor), I never griped about the range of the airplanes I flew, I just planned my flights accordingly.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The LEAF does wonderfully in the cold, better than a normal car, when it is used for the daily commuting distances for which it was designed.... driving an EV is somewhat like fuel reserves and filing an alternate on your IFR flight plan, you have to plan ahead. Though I haven't flown for many years (lost medical due to a brain tumor), I never griped about the range of the airplanes I flew, I just planned my flights accordingly.

So, what exactly is the "daily commuting distances" for which the LEAF was designed, and please cite your reference.

I'll start; 73 miles from US EPA, 100 from Nissan USA, 123 / 142 miles Nissan Japan, 109 miles Nissan Europe.

If you had an airplane that the manufacturer said went 100 miles, and you filled it up and promptly ran out of gas at 63 miles, would you find that to be an issue?

 

[tps]

So, what exactly is the "daily commuting distances" for which the LEAF was designed, and please cite your reference.

I'll start; 73 miles from US EPA, 100 from Nissan USA, 123 / 142 miles Nissan Japan, 109 miles Nissan Europe.

The EPA's 73 TOTAL RANGE seems about right, given my experience, when the LEAF is driven like a normal car. You may get more in optimum conditions or less in worse conditions. I usually tell people the realistic range they can expect is 60 to 80 miles.

After driving the LEAF, I could never believe that it was designed to go 100 miles in average conditions, IMHO, Nissan should not be giving customers that impression. Car salesmen, even at my Nissan dealer, toss this 100 mile number around, which bothers me; I tell them that 60 - 80 miles is what my experience has shown.

The way I look at it, the car is what it is, 60 - 80 miles works great for me. It would work fine for many drivers, and it will work even better as the charging network is built out so the car can be charging whenever parked. I would not recommend the LEAF to someone who had a daily commute of more than 60 miles RT, unless they could charge at work. Then maybe they could reliably do 120 miles RT. My commute is 40 miles RT, so the LEAF is a very comfortable fit for me.

If you had an airplane that the manufacturer said went 100 miles, and you filled it up and promptly ran out of gas at 63 miles, would you find that to be an issue?

So far as the airplane, one takes into account at least some of the variables (like headwind) in their flight planning, and then you have fuel reserves. I've never flown an airplane until it was running on fumes. And I think I would notice when I landed that I didn't have my expected reserve fuel remaining and try to find out why.

I take factors like temperature, estimated driving speed, etc, into account when planning where I'll have to charge. It's worked for me, I've only been to LBW in the LEAF 3 times in over12K miles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The EPA's 73 TOTAL RANGE seems about right, given my experience, when the LEAF is driven like a normal car. You may get more in optimum conditions or less in worse conditions. I usually tell people the realistic range they can expect is 60 to 80 miles.....
I take factors like temperature, estimated driving speed, etc, into account when planning where I'll have to charge. It's worked for me, I've only been to LBW in the LEAF 3 times in over12K miles.

But they didn't tell you it could be 40-50 miles in the cold, right? If Nissan was advertising 100 / 109 / 124 / 142 miles of range in different markets around the world, would you expect to get 40-50?

But, it happens.

I also take all your factors into consideration before flying or driving. I wouldn't expect either myself (when new to the LEAF), or the average consumer to be able to determine when the car goes 50 miles and when it could go 100 miles.

Anyway, I'm too lazy to go back in thread to find out exactly what point you were trying to make. My point is simple; most of the range advertisements for the LEAF are grossly optimistic in ideal conditions, and purposely misleading for a wide area of the USA that is cold every winter.

 

[walkinwolk]

I've been afraid of using the heater much since I've had this car due to the comments I've read on this site.

It finally got cold enough here in South Carolina where I got tired of just using the seat heaters and steering wheel heater to stay warm.

On Friday, we had a 52 mile round trip planned in the evening to a friends house. It was 50 deg when we left and about 37 when we arrived. I drove at 55-60 most of the way out without the heater because we really didn't need it.
We didn't bother to charge w/115 VAC at our friend's place.

On the way back (it was now about freezing) we still had 45 miles showing on the GOM, so I drove at 60-65 most of the way with the heater. Started it at 78 degF to get the car warmed up. The car is so well insulated that I had it backed down to 68 with the fan on the lowest setting by the time we got back. This was with recirc mode.

When I hit the driveway I had 20 miles left and the GOM was right at the beginning of the red.

I would not recommend driving this car more than 55 - 60 miles in this type of cold. Really cold, then maybe cut it another 15 miles (with the heat of course). That way you don't have to worry about range.

Once you know that up front, it's really not a big deal. Of course the 2013 will help with the heater range loss quite a bit.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Once you know that up front, it's really not a big deal. Of course the 2013 will help with the heater range loss quite a bit.

Just to be clear, the optional 2013 heat pump won't help the 10%-20% loss in battery performance in cold weather. It will still be "heater off" to get maximum range, if required.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Once you know that up front, it's really not a big deal. Of course the 2013 will help with the heater range loss quite a bit.

Just to be clear, the optional 2013 heat pump won't help the 10%-20% loss in battery performance in cold weather. It will still be "heater off" to get maximum range, if required.

But that reduced battery performance depends on whether or not the car is parked outside and cold-soaked. Attached garages tend to not approach outside overnight lows. And the battery seems to be warmed up by charging, driving, and regen, so it takes some time after driving for it to reach ambient temperature. So there are plenty of us in the snowbelt who don't see the full cold battery hit to range, I would venture to guess.

Maybe I'm an exception, but I knew perfectly well that my winter range would be lower than in summer, just as my gas mileage in my ICE car is reduced in winter. I was surprised to find that the winter range in my LEAF was somewhat more than I was expecting. And for short trips of 40 miles or less cold weather is pretty much irrelevant; I do them on 80% charges with some heater use.

What sort of "truth in advertising" would you advise for snowbelt LEAFs? "Expected range of 40-50 miles if parked outside in temperatures below 20ºF"? As always, a big range factor is still speed even in cold weather, so a lot depends on how fast one drives.


I hope that as batteries become less expensive and affordable BEV ranges increase, these issues will decline in importance. But, for now, I am pretty happy with my LEAF even in winter with zero charge station infrastructure. But, then, I'm an early adopter/fanatic, as you know.

 

[Electric4Me]

The EPA's 73 TOTAL RANGE seems about right, given my experience, when the LEAF is driven like a normal car. You may get more in optimum conditions or less in worse conditions. I usually tell people the realistic range they can expect is 60 to 80 miles.....
I take factors like temperature, estimated driving speed, etc, into account when planning where I'll have to charge. It's worked for me, I've only been to LBW in the LEAF 3 times in over12K miles.

But they didn't tell you it could be 40-50 miles in the cold, right? If Nissan was advertising 100 / 109 / 124 / 142 miles of range in different markets around the world, would you expect to get 40-50?

But, it happens.

I also take all your factors into consideration before flying or driving. I wouldn't expect either myself (when new to the LEAF), or the average consumer to be able to determine when the car goes 50 miles and when it could go 100 miles.

Anyway, I'm too lazy to go back in thread to find out exactly what point you were trying to make. My point is simple; most of the range advertisements for the LEAF are grossly optimistic in ideal conditions, and purposely misleading for a wide area of the USA that is cold every winter.

Tony,
you know the Leaf inside and out and have great technical knowledge, but almost everything you post here these days has a glass half empty tone to it. That's fine, but for me the glass is so far above half full that I love this car. It isn't perfect, but it has lived up to everything that Nissan told me it would do.

Nissan clearly laid out in fall 2010 that the Leaf would go 40-140 miles, depending on how it was driven, when new. Cold weather, high speeds, age, etc., would sap range, in some cases greatly. After almost 2 years and >36k miles, I still get EPA-like range out of this car. We do ~73 miles in mixed driving with some heater use frequently. Did I ever go near 140 miles? Hell no; didn't want to drive that slow. Did I ever go only 40 miles? No, never drove that fast (for long) or in very cold weather. Nissan Corp.'s claims of how this car would work have been 100% accurate for me. (I can't speak for how salesmen may sell this car as all they did for me was tell me where to sign.)