135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

[Sublime]

Personally a 100 mile range in winter is what I "need" - so that it covers my trips to the airport and northern suburbs. In other words, I want Leaf's summer range in winter as well. 150 EPA range would be plenty for this.

Are you sure 150 EPA would be enough to give you 100? For a short term-lease in your climate, probably, but for a long-term purchase it seems questionable. At 70% of original capacity that 150 EPA becomes 105, and that's before any allowance for realistic freeway speeds, non-ideal weather and HVAC use, let alone a reserve.

But 30% degradation could take a long time with the new cells. NMC should have 2x the cycle life and not be affected by heat as much. Plus 50% more capacity means 50% fewer cycles for the same mileage. So if that took 3 years / 36k miles on the 1st gen batteries, it might take 10years/100k with the NMC cells.

 

[GRA]

Personally a 100 mile range in winter is what I "need" - so that it covers my trips to the airport and northern suburbs. In other words, I want Leaf's summer range in winter as well. 150 EPA range would be plenty for this.

Are you sure 150 EPA would be enough to give you 100? For a short term-lease in your climate, probably, but for a long-term purchase it seems questionable. At 70% of original capacity that 150 EPA becomes 105, and that's before any allowance for realistic freeway speeds, non-ideal weather and HVAC use, let alone a reserve.

But 30% degradation could take a long time with the new cells. NMC should have 2x the cycle life and not be affected by heat as much. Plus 50% more capacity means 50% fewer cycles for the same mileage. So if that took 3 years / 36k miles on the 1st gen batteries, it might take 10years/100k with the NMC cells.

While I agree that a larger capacity battery should result in shallower cycling for many people and hence slower degradation due to that cause, we have only Nissan's claim that the new battery should be substantially more heat-tolerant. As soon as Nissan puts their money where their mouth is and warranties the new battery to the numbers they were claiming for the original battery in 2010, i.e. 5 yrs/60k to 80%, 10 yrs/100k to 70%, I'll believe that they are confident they can back up their claims. Until that time, they will just be continuing to put the customer's money where Nissan's mouth is.

 

[mwalsh]

While I agree that a larger capacity battery should result in shallower cycling for many people and hence slower degradation due to that cause, we have only Nissan's claim that the new battery should be substantially more heat-tolerant.

The ceramic coated separators alone would make it more heat tolerant, even without any chemistry changes.

 

[evnow]

Are you sure 150 EPA would be enough to give you 100? For a short-term lease in your climate, probably, but for a long-term purchase it seems questionable. At 70% of original capacity that 150 EPA becomes 105, and that's before any allowance for realistic freeway speeds, non-ideal weather and HVAC use, let alone a reserve.

Purchasing an EV is a small niche now - I don't particularly care about that. I've always advised everyone to lease, that would stand even with a 150 mile EV. Given out 7.5k credit, it makes even more sense to lease every 2 years (and get maximum benefit of the credit) rather than buy and try to hold a Gen 1 product for years & years.

But - in my case 150 mile EPA range would indeed be good for 5 years or so in NW weather, given my low mileage use, even after degradation.

 

[GRA]

Are you sure 150 EPA would be enough to give you 100? For a short-term lease in your climate, probably, but for a long-term purchase it seems questionable. At 70% of original capacity that 150 EPA becomes 105, and that's before any allowance for realistic freeway speeds, non-ideal weather and HVAC use, let alone a reserve.

Purchasing an EV is a small niche now - I don't particularly care about that. I've always advised everyone to lease, that would stand even with a 150 mile EV. Given out 7.5k credit, it makes even more sense to lease every 2 years (and get maximum benefit of the credit) rather than buy and try to hold a Gen 1 product for years & years.

But - in my case 150 mile EPA range would indeed be good for 5 years or so in NW weather, given my low mileage use, even after degradation.

Okay, given your reasoning I agree that would work for you. The trick is to make it work for the mainstream buyer anywhere in the U.S., if we want to expand BEVs beyond their tiny niche.

 

[GRA]

While I agree that a larger capacity battery should result in shallower cycling for many people and hence slower degradation due to that cause, we have only Nissan's claim that the new battery should be substantially more heat-tolerant.

The ceramic coated separators alone would make it more heat tolerant, even without any chemistry changes.

Again, show me the money (Nissan's, not the customer's). For that matter, we still have no official notice that they're going with the new battery, as that was dependent on no problems showing up in testing, and Nissan has been demonstrating their usual lack of keeping interested parties updated since the meeting last year. Based on past experience, I expect they might get around to telling the interested public sometime in the August-December time frame rather than April, but that's the cynic in me.

 

[klapauzius]

Based on past experience, I expect they might get around to telling the interested public sometime in the August-December time frame rather than April, but that's the cynic in me.

That would be "Nissan Spring (Tm)" . :lol:

 

[evnow]

Okay, given your reasoning I agree that would work for you. The trick is to make it work for the mainstream buyer anywhere in the U.S., if we want to expand BEVs beyond their tiny niche.

Mainstream buyer in the US will be fine too. Battery degradation in hot places will still be less than the cold weather degradation we see.

ps : if they couldn't get a working hot battery, they would have gone the liquid cooled route.

 

[mwalsh]

ps : if they couldn't get a working hot battery, they would have gone the liquid cooled route.

Call me a cynic, but I think they would have said (will say?), "Move along...nothing to see here", and go with business as usual.

 

[palmermd]

ps : if they couldn't get a working hot battery, they would have gone the liquid cooled route.

Call me a cynic, but I think they would have said (will say?), "Move along...nothing to see here", and go with business as usual.

Isn't that what was said when they built the 2011 Leaf? When there were complaints about a lack of thermal management they said they had a working hot environment battery and they did not need the thermal management. What makes you believe them now? We went on trust the first time, now they need to have some evidence in order to earn that trust back.

 

[mwalsh]

We went on trust the first time, now they need to have some evidence in order to earn that trust back.

Hear! Hear!

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

We went on trust the first time, now they need to have some evidence in order to earn that trust back.

Hear! Hear!

Or just keep riding the cheap lease pony until Nissan realizes they are up to their armpits in spent batteries.

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

 

[mwalsh]

Or just keep riding the cheap lease pony until Nissan realizes they are up to their armpits in spent batteries.

But it doesn't seem that (m)any cars are ending up back with Nissan, as I'd half expected they would. Instead they're being trotted out at the turn-in dealership as used inventory.

This may not be true when there's a complete glut of them, however. But that sort of makes me hope that (for now at least) I'll still have a fair chance at a new pack when I need one later this year, rather than a refurbished/used one that has already lost capacity.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ Dealers *love* a stream of used cars. A few missing bars aren't going to slow them down one bit.

 

[GRA]

^ Dealers *love* a stream of used cars. A few missing bars aren't going to slow them down one bit.

Unfortunately, they'll peddle them to poor schmoes who don't know anything about degradation/battery bars, who will then be soured on BEVs for all time, and who will badmouth them to all and sundry. That's not the end point for BEVs I had in mind.

 

[evnow]

Isn't that what was said when they built the 2011 Leaf? When there were complaints about a lack of thermal management they said they had a working hot environment battery and they did not need the thermal management. What makes you believe them now? We went on trust the first time, now they need to have some evidence in order to earn that trust back.

I don't necessarily believe their "hot" battery will "solve" all hot climate degradation issues - but I do believe Nissan understands they need a solution for this.

It is possible the hot battery is better than the current one - and Nissan is thinking about a thermal management system as a backup if this doesn't work.

As I said, better be safe than sorry. So lease.

BTW, is this the longest thread we've had for a story which is based on speculation based on incorrect information ?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ It's a cocktail party thread, unstructured information, big data... the next big thing.

 

[EVDRIVER]

[quote

BTW, is this the longest thread we've had for a story which is based on speculation based on incorrect information ?[/quote]

I was expecting this to go on forever, classic MNL forum style. :roll:

 

[DaveEV]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

I don't know, seems like the residual is way higher than what the actual resale value will be at the end of lease term...

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

What we're helping to buy with our tax dollars isn't individual cars, but the beginnings of a transition of our transportation system. Imagine, a future where we have no ICE.