135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

[kmp647]

How Nissan engineers 135 mile epa Leaf
each leaf module is a 4 cell stack 2s2p
think each cell is around 33ah or so
since they need to add capacity and keep voltage the same using the same cells….
they go to either a 2s3p module, or a 2s4p
2s3p give a 50% increase in capacity (36kwh pack) EPA range ? 120 ?
2s4p gives 100% increase in capacity(48kwh) EPA range ? 150 ?
pack voltage remains the same, capacity increases, BMS will need to take on the monitoring and balancing of the additional cells
costs kept low because no new cell size is needed. current modules get thicker and heavier. not really a big deal for Nissan considering all they have done with the Leaf.
its a common technic for increasinp pack capacity
pack shape and case needs modify , longer pack maybe extending into the phantom spare tire area?

This is how Nissan will offer more range , no way they will change the cell size
they will offer 2s3p or more liekly 2s4p cell config in the 48kwh pack

2s3p change could be a mid cycle refresh with new BMS and some suspension upgrade and tires, same body
2s4p might require a model changeover redesign because of weight and size of pack

best we can hope for in 2015 model ? 2s3p 36kwh option ? on my curent leaf 60 mile commute I get home with 2-3 bars and about 14 to 20 miles reserve/ 36kwh leaf 5 or 6 bars 50 to 60 reserve

 

[mwalsh]

^ Haiku poem?

 

[kmp647]

No is not haiku, its just the way my brain works.

and I am a slow typer so I abbreviate and leave out some stuff that seems unimportant

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

What we're helping to buy with our tax dollars isn't individual cars, but the beginnings of a transition of our transportation system. Imagine, a future where we have no ICE.

That's why it's important that the result is reasonably durable cars, not a flash in the pan that ends with a bunch of 5 year old leafs piled up in junkyards.

 

[evnow]

No is not haiku, its just the way my brain works.

and I am a slow typer so I abbreviate and leave out some stuff that seems unimportant

You should have just taken that as a complement

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

What we're helping to buy with our tax dollars isn't individual cars, but the beginnings of a transition of our transportation system. Imagine, a future where we have no ICE.

That's why it's important that the result is reasonably durable cars, not a flash in the pan that ends with a bunch of 5 year old leafs piled up in junkyards.

Agreed. The LEAF is only one model, if it fails on it's merits, there are others coming, and better. I'm waiting on the Model E.

 

[Sublime]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

What we're helping to buy with our tax dollars isn't individual cars, but the beginnings of a transition of our transportation system. Imagine, a future where we have no ICE.

That would be terrible, I like cold drinks.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The real loser in that scenario though is the US taxpayer not getting their money's worth.

What we're helping to buy with our tax dollars isn't individual cars, but the beginnings of a transition of our transportation system. Imagine, a future where we have no ICE.

That would be terrible, I like cold drinks.

That was really sublime.

 

[pkulak]

How Nissan engineers 135 mile epa Leaf
each leaf module is a 4 cell stack 2s2p
think each cell is around 33ah or so
since they need to add capacity and keep voltage the same using the same cells….
they go to either a 2s3p module, or a 2s4p
2s3p give a 50% increase in capacity (36kwh pack) EPA range ? 120 ?
2s4p gives 100% increase in capacity(48kwh) EPA range ? 150 ?
pack voltage remains the same, capacity increases, BMS will need to take on the monitoring and balancing of the additional cells
costs kept low because no new cell size is needed. current modules get thicker and heavier. not really a big deal for Nissan considering all they have done with the Leaf.
its a common technic for increasinp pack capacity
pack shape and case needs modify , longer pack maybe extending into the phantom spare tire area?

This is how Nissan will offer more range , no way they will change the cell size
they will offer 2s3p or more liekly 2s4p cell config in the 48kwh pack

2s3p change could be a mid cycle refresh with new BMS and some suspension upgrade and tires, same body
2s4p might require a model changeover redesign because of weight and size of pack

best we can hope for in 2015 model ? 2s3p 36kwh option ? on my curent leaf 60 mile commute I get home with 2-3 bars and about 14 to 20 miles reserve/ 36kwh leaf 5 or 6 bars 50 to 60 reserve

So they can increase capacity by adding weight instead of volume? That would be good to hear, since their pack already seems about as large as the Tesla 85's.

 

[dm33]

FWIW, I met with a relatively high level manager at Nissan a couple of weeks ago. Have been meaning to post his comments.

Overall he was misinformed about some things but I assume had some insight on others.

He claimed a larger capacity LEAF is on the way. He did not say the price nor when it would appear. He kept referring to a 125 mile LEAF. He said he's ridden in LEAFs with varying size packs up to 48kwh but said that took up trunk space, added significant weight, was substantially more expensive and therefore consumers wouldn't be interested in it.

 

[Stoaty]

1) He claimed a larger capacity LEAF is on the way. He kept referring to a 125 mile LEAF.
2) He said he's ridden in LEAFs with varying size packs up to 48kwh but said that took up trunk space, added significant weight, was substantially more expensive and therefore consumers wouldn't be interested in it.

His (the Nissan manager, not dm33) statements appear to conflict with each other... move on folks, nothing to see here.

 

[dm33]

1) He claimed a larger capacity LEAF is on the way. He kept referring to a 125 mile LEAF.
2) He said he's ridden in LEAFs with varying size packs up to 48kwh but said that took up trunk space, added significant weight, was substantially more expensive and therefore consumers wouldn't be interested in it.

His (the Nissan manager, not dm33) statements appear to conflict with each other... move on folks, nothing to see here.

In #2, is referring to the 48kwh battery. The statements do not conflict. He's stating that it's a smaller battery than 48kwh.

 

[DaveEV]

He said he's ridden in LEAFs with varying size packs up to 48kwh but said that took up trunk space, added significant weight, was substantially more expensive and therefore consumers wouldn't be interested in it.

LOL - man, those heavy, expensive Teslas sure aren't selling well, are they? That's the only EV that's selling in numbers anywhere close to the LEAF and aside from taking up trunk space, it certainly adds significant weight (1300+lbs over the LEAF) and is substantially more expensive (you can buy at least 3 LEAFs for the price of the cheapest Model S after tax credits) - yet consumers are _very_ interested in it.

 

[kmp647]

its likely that the next step for the Leaf is a move from 2s2p to 2s3p modules as I posted earlier. way to expensive and complicated to add a new cell size at this point.
The pack will be both larger and heaver 96 additional cells each cell weighs 799g or 1.7624 lbs so about 170lbs total added plus wiring insulation etc (each module will contain 6 cells instead of 4 (by about 20% in weight a bit less in volume) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52162" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
so if the current 24kwh pack is 600lbs ? the 36kwh pack will be about ~750 to 775 lbs (we can estimate each cells weight if needed and make a more precise estimate) and that is in line with a 125 mile car. I think the cost increase is also reasonable.?

Also that small of a weight increase is managable by changing suspension spring rates and shock damping,tire size? either way small changes that are do-able within the current design of the Leaf. 0-60 performance will suffer unless the inverter power curve and torque limit are adjusted or the motor or gear ratio are changed slightly for more watts.

Not much would be needed 6.6kw OBC is still ok but not great, chademo is still 30 min or less to 80%

it would be an obvious evolutionary change.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

How Nissan engineers 135 mile epa Leaf
each leaf module is a 4 cell stack 2s2p
think each cell is around 33ah or so
since they need to add capacity and keep voltage the same using the same cells….
they go to either a 2s3p module, or a 2s4p
2s3p give a 50% increase in capacity (36kwh pack) EPA range ? 120 ?
2s4p gives 100% increase in capacity(48kwh) EPA range ? 150 ?
pack voltage remains the same, capacity increases, BMS will need to take on the monitoring and balancing of the additional cells
costs kept low because no new cell size is needed. current modules get thicker and heavier. not really a big deal for Nissan considering all they have done with the Leaf.
its a common technic for increasinp pack capacity
pack shape and case needs modify , longer pack maybe extending into the phantom spare tire area?

This is how Nissan will offer more range , no way they will change the cell size
they will offer 2s3p or more liekly 2s4p cell config in the 48kwh pack

2s3p change could be a mid cycle refresh with new BMS and some suspension upgrade and tires, same body
2s4p might require a model changeover redesign because of weight and size of pack

best we can hope for in 2015 model ? 2s3p 36kwh option ? on my curent leaf 60 mile commute I get home with 2-3 bars and about 14 to 20 miles reserve/ 36kwh leaf 5 or 6 bars 50 to 60 reserve

wow....

why cant we just increase the capacity of the cells and keep the config the same? or is that not enough "value added" change to justify the price increase?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

He said he's ridden in LEAFs with varying size packs up to 48kwh but said that took up trunk space, added significant weight, was substantially more expensive and therefore consumers wouldn't be interested in it.

LOL - man, those heavy, expensive Teslas sure aren't selling well, are they? That's the only EV that's selling in numbers anywhere close to the LEAF and aside from taking up trunk space, it certainly adds significant weight (1300+lbs over the LEAF) and is substantially more expensive (you can buy at least 3 LEAFs for the price of the cheapest Model S after tax credits) - yet consumers are _very_ interested in it.

not possible its simply the ONLY OTHER EV that is available at similar volumes?

or the fact that neither Nissan or Tesla has an overabundance of unsold units?

maybe we need to wonder why no one else is willing to get into the game?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

My guess is the only way to increase capacity in the existing form factor is with a riskier chemistry that would require TMS to be safe.

They won't put batteries in the rear well, it is too vulnerable in a collision.

 

[EVDRIVER]

For a much larger pack the LEAF needs a new design. The reason the Tesla can have such a large and heavy pack is because the car was designed around it. There is no doubt the present LEAF can have some range added but only to a certain degree. No matter what Nissan says the LEAF is not a "ground up" EV design like the Tesla and others, it is a modified platform that still needs to shed weight.

 

[kmp647]

"why cant we just increase the capacity of the cells and keep the config the same?"Nissan could do this sure, maybe make a new cell that is 49ah instead of 33ah

they can make the cells on the same extruding machine . the cells will have to either be thicker or wider/longer
and some testing will be needed but I guess they could do it.

Less cells are always better, so if they kept the original 192 cell (48x4) it would simplify the BMS

? think i would cost more , they are already making thousands of th original 33ah cells , and they will have to add a line for the 49ah cells if they wish to have 2 pack options
if they decide all Leaf models will have the new larger pack , then yes a switch to a larger base cell makes the most sense

?

 

[evnow]

That's why it's important that the result is reasonably durable cars, not a flash in the pan that ends with a bunch of 5 year old leafs piled up in junkyards.

No - doesn't have to be "durable". The momentum needs to be sustainable, that's all.

Not many are using 1st gen HDTVs now and not because of durability issues.