2013 Leaf - Dead 12-Volt Battery every 2 Weeks

[dgpcolorado]

Hi,

This has happened to our 2011 leaf twice in three years. Just looking to see if anyone knows the cause. Today's experience was unique:

My wife started the car just fine, and drove 6 miles to work.
When she got out and tried to use the remote to lock the car, no response. She opened the door manually and tried to start, no go.
The FOB was working fine once we jump started the car.

Is it possible the 12V battery was being drained while she was driving it?

That sounds more like a loose connection to a battery terminal. Those can be intermittent. Just guessing though.

 

[RegGuheert]

As such, I am seriously considering getting one of the Battery Minders that was recommended by DarkStar:

This is a great desulfator, however it's perfectly save to use while the battery is connected to your Leaf (it's designed to be used in-line with a battery in service so it desulfates while driving). A better choice would be to go with a BatteryMINDer. These not only trickle-charge your battery, but desulfate at the same time.

It should be noted that it takes about 3-4 weeks of constant desulfating to see any improvement in battery capacity, so something like the Wizbang Battery Desulfator would be a better choice while leaving the battery in the car. I've been desulfating an old UPS battery (17ah) for about 4 weeks (using a hand-built unit) and I'm just finally starting to see some improvements (up to 15ah from 12ah).

I figure it is better to invest $50 now than to spend $100 every three years for a new battery.

I went ahead and invested in one of the BatteryMinder 1500 desulfators. Since I have several other batteries sitting around that also need maintaining, I went ahead and purchased three of their fused Y-cables to allow four batteries to be maintained simultaneously.

BatteryMinder has a great deal right now on their 1500 (and other models) which gives you free shipping and a digital multimeter with purchase for $54.95. That's a good deal if you don't need any accessories. Unfortunately, they charge retail price for all their accessories, which are quite expensive.

Since I was purchasing several accessories, I bought from RV Upgrade Store who had the Battery Minder 1500 for $35.17 and accessories for significantly less. Even with shipping costs, it turned out to be a big savings.

After several more hours of sitting, my LEAF's 12V battery is now at 12.16V, so I think it has lost about 40% to 45% of its capacity to sulfation so far. (It seems to be degrading at about 4X the rate of the traction battery in the car!) Once I get this desulfator connected and have some time with it, I will report back how much of the original capacity can be recovered, if any. We can use the plot above as a reference for how this battery USED to work.

 

[Stanton]

The 12 volt lithium battery sounds like a great solution, but $841??? If Nissan would pay for it, fine. They should be able to get this car to keep its 12 volt lead acid battery charged up.

When's the last time you paid list price for something? This is no different! It sure beats the heck out of all the battery tender/screwing around/etc with the 12v lead acid; ironically, the 12v charging profile is actually better suited to the Lithium battery.

 

[RegGuheert]

It sure beats the heck out of all the battery tender/screwing around/etc with the 12v lead acid;...

Perhaps. But hopefully we can find a non-fiddly solution that is not so expensive.

To that end, I have also purchased the BatteryMinder OBD-12. If this works, it should require no more fiddling once installed. BatteryStuff.com has it for $45 plus $7.50 shipping. It's not clear if that is enough to keep a LEAF battery from sulfating under normal conditions, but it's worth a try. We'll see.

 

[TomT]

And here I sit at 38 months and 48K miles with the original 12 volt battery still in great condition...

It sure beats the heck out of all the battery tender/screwing around/etc with the 12v lead acid; ironically, the 12v charging profile is actually better suited to the Lithium battery.

 

[Nubo]

And here I sit at 38 months and 48K miles with the original 12 volt battery still in great condition...

Not surprising. The problem manifests depending on usage patterns that affect depth of discharge.

 

[mwalsh]

And here I sit at 38 months and 48K miles with the original 12 volt battery still in great condition... ]

Me too. Despite my misgivings in the "How's your 12v battery health" thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11094" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just going to wait on mine dying before I do anything, even if it means a little inconvenience. Unless the "little inconvenience" is a failure of the vehicle resulting in a horrendous crash. :lol:

 

[RegGuheert]

Since then, it has sat (with the ELM327 removed) and it is now at 12.17V.

24 hours after that reading, it has now dropped 80mV to 12.09V. That rate of drop is about twice the rate that I saw a couple of years ago and plotted in the chart.

When I plugged in the LEAF to charge today, it did manage to keep the charging voltage up at 14.59V for about one hour, which is the longest time I have ever seen it actually charge the 12V battery. But one hour at 14.59V is not nearly enough time to charge a lead-acid battery from 50% SOC to full. It's a bizarre approach to charge a vehicle battery, to be sure (assuming the goal is to make the battery last a long time!).

 

[mwalsh]

^ I'm not sure you can use the words "LEAF" and "battery", along with the phrase "last a long time" in the same paragraph. Unless you're writing a comedy skit or Shakespearian tragedy.

 

[TomT]

+1 :lol:

^ I'm not sure you can use the words "LEAF" and "battery", along with the phrase "last a long time" in the same paragraph. Unless you're writing a comedy skit or Shakespearian tragedy.

 

[QueenBee]

Since then, it has sat (with the ELM327 removed) and it is now at 12.17V.

24 hours after that reading, it has now dropped 80mV to 12.09V. That rate of drop is about twice the rate that I saw a couple of years ago and plotted in the chart.

When I plugged in the LEAF to charge today, it did manage to keep the charging voltage up at 14.59V for about one hour, which is the longest time I have ever seen it actually charge the 12V battery. But one hour at 14.59V is not nearly enough time to charge a lead-acid battery from 50% SOC to full. It's a bizarre approach to charge a vehicle battery, to be sure (assuming the goal is to make the battery last a long time!).

I'd really like to see you do three more measurements. The first let the battery sit disconnected for say 12 hours to get the true resting voltage and this real SOC. Then connect it to to a battery tender to charge it to 100% then let it rest disconnected for another 12 hours to get the true 100% resting voltage to give you the actual capacity. Then run the desulfurtion for a few week and repeat the 100% charge resting capacity charge.

It's just not accurate to measure lead acid voltage while there is a load on it. I gave up monitoring my voltage after seeing values that I think were too low to be real and I've not yet gone through the effort of disconnecting the battery so it's resting.

 

[RegGuheert]

I'd really like to see you do three more measurements. The first let the battery sit disconnected for say 12 hours to get the true resting voltage and this real SOC. Then connect it to to a battery tender to charge it to 100% then let it rest disconnected for another 12 hours to get the true 100% resting voltage to give you the actual capacity. Then run the desulfurtion for a few week and repeat the 100% charge resting capacity charge.

O.K. I just disconnected the LEAF's 12V battery and I wil provide a reading in the morning after 24 hours have elapsed.

I will note, however, that it does appear that the battery already has been significantly desulfated recently, both by my high-voltage charging and by the BatteryMinder, which has been connected for a bit less than 24 hours so far. While I reported previously that I thought those high-voltage charges had not been effective, when I subsequently did a normal charge with my old charger, it took a significant amount of charge (the charger stayed on task for around 12 hours!) and the voltage appeared to be holding up much better than previously. So perhaps the efforts were actually paying off in terms of returning sulfuric acid to the electrolyte.

In any event, I really like this new BatteryMinder so far. It doesn't look like much, but this thing appears to make a real difference and it doesn't require me to jump through hoops to achieve the desulfation. I first tried it on a different battery in another vehicle that was badly sulfated. My normal 1.5A charger managed to charge for only about an hour or two before dropping into float. After removing that charger the battery voltage had dropped down to 12.5V within about two hours. Then I connected the BatteryMinder 1500, which managed to charge the battery (at about the same absorption voltage) for about five more hours. That battery has now been sitting for about 20 hours and currently sits at 12.65V.

It's just not accurate to measure lead acid voltage while there is a load on it. I gave up monitoring my voltage after seeing values that I think were too low to be real and I've not yet gone through the effort of disconnecting the battery so it's resting.

It's certainly not an accurate resting voltage, but it is useful to me since I have historical data on our LEAF's 12V battery's droop rate when it was much newer that I can use as a reference. While that result is not the battery's resting voltage, it is ultimately what I care about in this case.

^ I'm not sure you can use the words "LEAF" and "battery", along with the phrase "last a long time" in the same paragraph. Unless you're writing a comedy skit or Shakespearian tragedy.

:lol:

I've been thinking about that, and I've decided that our LEAF doesn't only torture its own batteries: it also tortures the 12V batteries that are located in our other vehicles. All of our other vehicles now sit around much more than they used to, and so we seem to have sulfation all around! :shock: Somehow I doubt that Nissan will be able to fix this problem with the other vehicles.

 

[BrockWI]

So yesterday I went to top off the 12v battery with a battery tender, 1.25 A charger and it went in to absorb in about 20 minutes. The last two weeks it took over 3 hours. So for whatever reason the 12 v battery was fine this week. I do wonder when and how the car actually chooses to charge and top off the battery. The only thing I can think that I did different was on Thursday night we charged to 100% for the first time because we knew we were driving a lot on Friday.

 

[QueenBee]

I'd really like to see you do three more measurements. The first let the battery sit disconnected for say 12 hours to get the true resting voltage and this real SOC. Then connect it to to a battery tender to charge it to 100% then let it rest disconnected for another 12 hours to get the true 100% resting voltage to give you the actual capacity. Then run the desulfurtion for a few week and repeat the 100% charge resting capacity charge.

O.K. I just disconnected the LEAF's 12V battery and I wil provide a reading in the morning after 24 hours have elapsed.

I will note, however, that it does appear that the battery already has been significantly desulfated recently, both by my high-voltage charging and by the BatteryMinder, which has been connected for a bit less than 24 hours so far. While I reported previously that I thought those high-voltage charges had not been effective, when I subsequently did a normal charge with my old charger, it took a significant amount of charge (the charger stayed on task for around 12 hours!) and the voltage appeared to be holding up much better than previously. So perhaps the efforts were actually paying off in terms of returning sulfuric acid to the electrolyte.

In any event, I really like this new BatteryMinder so far. It doesn't look like much, but this thing appears to make a real difference and it doesn't require me to jump through hoops to achieve the desulfation. I first tried it on a different battery in another vehicle that was badly sulfated. My normal 1.5A charger managed to charge for only about an hour or two before dropping into float. After removing that charger the battery voltage had dropped down to 12.5V within about two hours. Then I connected the BatteryMinder 1500, which managed to charge the battery (at about the same absorption voltage) for about five more hours. That battery has now been sitting for about 20 hours and currently sits at 12.65V.

Awesome, Thanks for endulging me it's interesting that such a short time had such a significant impact. I can't translate that to a capacity percent in my head but seems like it'll be an improvement.

 

[RegGuheert]

I'd really like to see you do three more measurements. The first let the battery sit disconnected for say 12 hours to get the true resting voltage and this real SOC. Then connect it to to a battery tender to charge it to 100% then let it rest disconnected for another 12 hours to get the true 100% resting voltage to give you the actual capacity. Then run the desulfurtion for a few week and repeat the 100% charge resting capacity charge.

O.K. I just disconnected the LEAF's 12V battery and I wil provide a reading in the morning after 24 hours have elapsed.

Awesome, Thanks for endulging me

After 24 hours, our LEAF's 12V battery is now at 12.49V. However, it is still dropping. I am going to let it sit for another 24 hours and see if it achieves a true resting voltage by then.

it's interesting that such a short time had such a significant impact. I can't translate that to a capacity percent in my head but seems like it'll be an improvement.

Yes, that was a quick improvement! That battery was at 12.60V after over 24 hours and I put it back on the BatteryMinder 1500 for another charge and let it desulfate overnight. It has now been off the charger for a few hours and currently sits at 12.80V. We'll see where it settles out...

 

[RegGuheert]

After 24 hours, our LEAF's 12V battery is now at 12.49V. However, it is still dropping. I am going to let it sit for another 24 hours and see if it achieves a true resting voltage by then.

Let me start with a correction here. After a few more hours of drooping voltage, I figured that perhaps I had not fully disconnected the battery from the load. What I had done was to disconnect the ground connection at the DC/DC converter. So I decided to pull the positive terminal off the battery...and the battery voltage went up! So it was not fully unloaded. So I decided to recharge the battery to full and then let it sit 24 hours with the battery terminal disconnected to see what the resting voltage was.

As of now it has sat for over 24 hours after a full charge completely disconnected. The battery voltage is at 13.04V and still dropping (obviously slowly). As such, I think this battery has a very low leakage rate and will take a while to get to a resting voltage. Unfortunately, I cannot wait for that to happen. I am still fully convinced that this battery is badly sulfated given the conditions it has been put through and the fact that the battery voltage droops so quickly even under a 175mA (or smaller load). At that level, I would expect it to be above 70% SOC after four days, but instead it gets to that level within a day.

So I am going to let it sit on the BatteryMinder 1500 Maintenance Charger/Desulfator for the next week and then recharge it and see if there is any improvement in droop rate compared to the original loaded test.

it's interesting that such a short time had such a significant impact. I can't translate that to a capacity percent in my head but seems like it'll be an improvement.

Yes, that was a quick improvement! That battery was at 12.60V after over 24 hours and I put it back on the BatteryMinder 1500 for another charge and let it desulfate overnight. It has now been off the charger for a few hours and currently sits at 12.80V. We'll see where it settles out...

After over 24 hours, that battery was sitting at 12.65V. That is a big improvement! I'm charging it one more time before I move the charger over to the LEAF for the long desulfating charge.

 

[Wennfred]

Took a 7 day trip to Waikiki Oahu and hooked up the 12 volt battery to the Battery Tender recommend here, (Battery Tender 021-0128 Battery Tender Plus 12V Battery Charger), came back and all is well.

I kept the main battery at 50% charged and unplugged.

http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0128-Plus-Charger/dp/B00068XCQU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1399540668&sr=8-2&keywords=12+volt+battery+tender" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the Tip.


Fred

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Took a 7 day trip to Waikiki Oahu and hooked up the 12 volt battery to the Battery Tender recommend here, (Battery Tender 021-0128 Battery Tender Plus 12V Battery Charger), came back and all is well.

I kept the main battery at 50% charged and unplugged.

http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-021-0128-Plus-Charger/dp/B00068XCQU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1399540668&sr=8-2&keywords=12+volt+battery+tender" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the Tip.


Fred

that is the best way to do it. after more than a half dozen trips, I finally saw "something"

We parked the LEAF 7 days for Disney trip. Left with 181 GIDs, returned to... 180 GIDs. First time I have seen any change!

but I don't plug mine in. I have an S parked in garage so no solar help (live in WA so wouldna made much difference anyway )

 

[RegGuheert]

It sure beats the heck out of all the battery tender/screwing around/etc with the 12v lead acid;...

Perhaps. But hopefully we can find a non-fiddly solution that is not so expensive.

To that end, I have also purchased the BatteryMinder OBD-12. If this works, it should require no more fiddling once installed. BatteryStuff.com has it for $45 plus $7.50 shipping. It's not clear if that is enough to keep a LEAF battery from sulfating under normal conditions, but it's worth a try. We'll see.

Just a quick update on the OBD-12 that can bolt into the battery permanently. I bought several of those and installed some of them in a PV system that has been having issues with sulfation. They appear to work great in that application! (Of course I'll know more after they are installed in the system for a longer time.)

But there appears to be an issue for use in the LEAF: These desulfators only start pulsing above 13.5V. Since the LEAF spends the vast majority of its time at 13.1V (and very little time at 14.4V), it will spend very little time desulfating the battery. I had hoped that the threshold would have been around 13.0V, but in hindsight, it is clear that such a low threshold would have resulted in the discharge of some types of batteries when they were merely resting.

Oh, well. (Please note that I am NOT talking about the Model 1500 maintainer/charger/desulfator, which is working great and that I will review next.)

 

[RegGuheert]

O.K. I've done this high-voltage charge for about eight more 3-hour sessions since that post and I don't think I have much to show for my efforts. The LEAF's 12V battery was last charged about 3 days ago and it was driven less than two days ago. Since then, it has sat (with the ELM327 removed) and it is now at 12.17V. This corresponds to a SOC of about 55% and is well below what I had measured previously after three WEEKS.

After 24 hours, our LEAF's 12V battery is now at 12.49V.

Since my last post on the Battery Minder Model 1500, I have completely disconnected the LEAF battery and have charged it continuously for 15 straight days. Since that long charging/desulfating session, the capacity of the LEAF's battery has appeared to be much higher. After driving it a few times since the charge, it has rested since the last drive for a period of 24 hours (fully connected). About one hour after turning off the car, the battery voltage sat at about 12.63V. Then 24 hours later, it was at 12.59V. It only dropped 40mV in 24 hours! That's much more like it had been when I tested it over a year ago.

While there still appears to be some sulfation in the battery, it appears to have much more capacity than it did a few weeks ago. Thanks again for the recommendation, DarkStar!