2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

[LeftieBiker]

If there's one thing internet journalism lacks, it's journalism.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I don’t know if it’s just due to lack of supply of EVs in general or a solid ownership base, but Leaf sales do seem to be swinging up in Europe. Outlander is also doing great. I wonder how that will translate in the Chademo vs ccs discussions there. You could make the case that Europe even more than the US needs to keep both standards.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

More and more German reviews are showing up now. Wonder if it will drive more sales, given the price premium the car carries there.

https://youtu.be/sjoAZVjpMEw

Netherlands
https://youtu.be/gIF78yd31RU

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

100 KW chargers going up in CA

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-evgo-fast-charging-station-connects-northern-and-southern-california-300968620.html

 

[Kieran973]

Now that it's been out for a little while, can any Leaf Plus owners comment on real world highway range?

I'm particularly wondering two things:

1. What are the warm weather real world highway ranges of the S Plus vs the SV Plus (with the All-Weather Package)? Let's say the conditions are 65 mph, 70 degrees F ambient, AC set to 70 F with fan speed at 2 bars, relatively flat roads, no precipitation, and little to no headwinds.

2. What are the cold weather real world highway ranges of the S Plus vs the SV Plus (with the All-Weather Package)? Let's say the conditions are 65 mph, 30 degrees F ambient, heat set to 70 F with fan speed at 2 bars, relatively flat roads, no precipitation, and little to no headwinds.

In my own 40 kWh SV, the real world range under the conditions in question 1 is about 150 miles and under the conditions in question 2 about 120 miles. So about exactly EPA range in ideal warm weather conditions and about 80% of EPA range in moderate winter conditions. Can the same be said of the S Plus and SV Plus? Since the SV Plus with All-Weather Package has a heat pump while the S Plus does not, is the S Plus' winter range less than 80% EPA? Ultimately, the reason I'm asking is I'm trying to get a ballpark idea of how different it would be to make 250ish mile drives (NYC to Boston, NYC to DC) in the 40 kWh Leaf vs the 62 kWh Leaf.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
It might be tough as there aren't many folks here with Leaf Pluses, let alone both an S Plus and an SV Plus.

FWIW, from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=41277&id=41276&id=42191&id=40520, not sure if you'd noticed that the Plus SV and SL actually have only 215 mile EPA range rating vs. 226 miles on the S Plus.

Side note: 259 mile EPA range 2020 Bolts have hit dealer lots. One guy who works at a local dealer posted a pic of one w/one of the new colors. He said 40 arrived yesterday. Unfortunately, AFAIK, GM didn't add a heat pump so it's still a crap power pig resistive heater. And, AFAIK, DC DC max speed hasn't improved. But, if it's like previous Bolts, you should be able to do a full 55 kW (on a high enough amperage DC FC) from 0 to ~55% over and over in a day due to liquid battery cooling.

However, DC charging might be a bit slow at the beginning if the battery's cold. There is a heater for the battery coolant but it's not real powerful and thus take awhile to heat up the battery coolant.

 

[user 24513]

Having an S Plus for the last 2 months I can give a sort of ballpark on this: you will not see 250 miles between cities even in the best weather. POSSIBLY around town, or on roads where speeds are lower, but doubtful. We regularly got the equivalent of around 220 in October when it was warm and driving slowly, we have gotten as bad as the equivalent of 180 on interstate with heat and lights in cooler weather. Probably going to be even less in colder weather i.e. ten below this January. Ballpark estimates are that, of the 220 or so potential, we lose about 10-15% when driving 65-70 MPH, and up to 30% when using heat or defrost. We have heated seats which is a must, do not consider an S unless it has the seats.... Since Chademo tops out at about 80% of the above, we have found ourselves charging every 150-180 miles or so.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I have had my Plus SV since June and have done longer trips in hot weather (90F+) and in cool weather (40s). As a preface, my tires are kept at 42-45psi, near the upper limit on the Michelin tires.

During my longer single charge trips (Chicago north side to Iowa City and Bloomington Iowa) I have found that 220 miles is doable at 65-70 in warm weather and flat terrain and some AC, but the 245 miles to Bloomington required some speed reduction (to 55ish) at times and power MGMT to be safe (I arrived with 1% on dash and 5kWh left in battery). If you are going to be pressing range, you need to use LeafSpy to ensure you understand remaining power. In the coldest weather at 70mph, I would not plan on anything above 180 miles as a colder battery and thicker air to cut efficiency as accelerating rates as you go faster. Around town you can do better (even 300+ miles if you are easy in the throttle and coast to lights when possible). Key for long drives is power MGMT and keeping a steady foot to keep a constant power level. If you face a heavy head wind, you can take a pretty significant range reduction (or boost if tail wind). This is true for all electric cars given how much more efficient they are compared to ICEs.

The unknown for us is rare of battery degradation, as this is a new chemistry. My SOH is sitting a bit above 97% after 6K miles and 6 months, but it’s too early to tell what’s going to happen.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Now that it's been out for a little while, can any Leaf Plus owners comment on real world highway range?

I'm particularly wondering two things:

1. What are the warm weather real world highway ranges of the S Plus vs the SV Plus (with the All-Weather Package)? Let's say the conditions are 65 mph, 70 degrees F ambient, AC set to 70 F with fan speed at 2 bars, relatively flat roads, no precipitation, and little to no headwinds.

2. What are the cold weather real world highway ranges of the S Plus vs the SV Plus (with the All-Weather Package)? Let's say the conditions are 65 mph, 30 degrees F ambient, heat set to 70 F with fan speed at 2 bars, relatively flat roads, no precipitation, and little to no headwinds.

In my own 40 kWh SV, the real world range under the conditions in question 1 is about 150 miles and under the conditions in question 2 about 120 miles. So about exactly EPA range in ideal warm weather conditions and about 80% of EPA range in moderate winter conditions. Can the same be said of the S Plus and SV Plus? Since the SV Plus with All-Weather Package has a heat pump while the S Plus does not, is the S Plus' winter range less than 80% EPA? Ultimately, the reason I'm asking is I'm trying to get a ballpark idea of how different it would be to make 250ish mile drives (NYC to Boston, NYC to DC) in the 40 kWh Leaf vs the 62 kWh Leaf.

1) 270 with A/C variable. Setting it to 70º I found to be a bit cold for me. My 40 seemed to not have any temperature control so comfort was set by fan speed. In some cases, toggling was needed but generally ran at fan speed 2.

2) I don't know what kind of "real" world you live in but there is nearly nowhere here that one can drive any distance without significant slowdowns. On my initial trip home about 85 miles, I got home with 65% SOC (on dash) 69% LS. It was 95% freeway with light rain in high 40's. I used no heat but it was new car and defrost was frequently necessary and as always, new car glass seems to have a film that causes it to fog more than normal.

There were slowdowns covering 10-15 miles at 30-50 mph, another stretch, maybe 5 miles of 0-20 mph, and another that was about 5 miles of speeds 20-30 mph. The rest was 60-70 mph probably just over 65 mph average (LEAF speedo)


Another metric; My commute 25 miles roundtrip. I started at 80% SOC (210 miles on GOM) drove 5 days, ended with 50 miles. Trip is 7½ miles freeway, 5 miles surface streets at 35-45 mph. Morning commute slower with 2 mile slowdown to 30-40 mph. Afternoon is clear generally all at 70-75 mph. Total distance this week 127 miles. It was mixed wet/dry. Nothing heavy. Used heat a bit on 2 days in morning when temps were below 30º

Guessing this will help little but then again, that is simply the nature of what you are asking. The better metric is simply taking an average during a month of Winter verses a month of Summer.

 

[webeleafowners]

For us in our 2016 SV it is more a matter of needing defrost than heat. If we could set the temperature at 14 or 15 we would. Wintertime means we have multiple layers on and 20-22 (70 ish in Fahrenheit????) is just too freakin warm.

Most speed limits in the bc interior are 90 to 110 mph even on the Trans Canada highway. Getting rated EPA range is EASY in warmer weather. One of our routes we take fairly often is Vernon to Penticton. Something like 115 kmh. We usually pull into the Penticton Chademo with over 50 percent in warm weather or 40 ish percent in cooler weather. Lots of little towns along the way that slow you down to 50 or 60 kmh. Speed kills range. I’m willing to bet that in the conditions we drive 400 km of range will be doable in the SL plus...albeit unnecessary as there are no shortage of DCFC in the province. Even specific trips we do of 445 km are not inconvenient in a 30KWH Leaf. Mostly because I have a prostate the size of a grapefruit and I like my Starbucks...so frequent stops are a thing. .

Just my two bits.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

For us in our 2016 SV it is more a matter of needing defrost than heat. If we could set the temperature at 14 or 15 we would. Wintertime means we have multiple layers on and 20-22 (70 ish in Fahrenheit????) is just too freakin warm.

Most speed limits in the bc interior are 90 to 110 mph even on the Trans Canada highway. Getting rated EPA range is EASY in warmer weather. One of our routes we take fairly often is Vernon to Penticton. Something like 115 kmh. We usually pull into the Penticton Chademo with over 50 percent in warm weather or 40 ish percent in cooler weather. Lots of little towns along the way that slow you down to 50 or 60 kmh. Speed kills range. I’m willing to bet that in the conditions we drive 400 km of range will be doable in the SL plus...albeit unnecessary as there are no shortage of DCFC in the province. Even specific trips we do of 445 km are not inconvenient in a 30KWH Leaf. Mostly because I have a prostate the size of a grapefruit and I like my Starbucks...so frequent stops are a thing. .

Just my two bits.

Agreed. I have thermostat set to 65º and that eventually becomes too warm if its not below 30º. I spent last 2 days not using heat at all only toggling defrost as needed, usually 20-40 second bursts and was in the mid 4's. But when it was in the 20's, the heat was on most of the time and I was in the high 3's so if you want to drive around at 70º, plan on getting less than 200 miles of range.

To add;

Got 40 2/16/18, first month performance; 4.16 from car
Got E Plus 11/16/19; performance to date; 4.12 miles/kwh from car.

My 40 after 25,185 miles was at 4.61 miles/kwh. So fairly sure, I can hit 4.4 miles/kwh with E Plus. That works to 255.2 with 58 kwh available; First drive had me at 59.8 kwh available.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Between steering wheel heater and seat heater, unless kids are in the back, or wife in shotgun, I don't touch the heat until its in single digits F.

 

[user 24513]

Not me Doug! one of the reasons we switched to a Plus was to be able to use some heat- yes it consumes power but it also has to be sensible... After freezing in old VWs for way too many years I need heat!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Between steering wheel heater and seat heater, unless kids are in the back, or wife in shotgun, I don't touch the heat until its in single digits F.

Its all about conditioning and you simply live in a colder area than I do. mid 30's and up, I am fine mostly because average day time is in 40's. In Alaska, mid 20's I was wearing t-shirts when the Sun was out but then again, we were in the interior and -30º F was not unusual with single digits being the norm.

I also garage it so have the advantage in the morning that my car is not cold soaked. Its generally warmer in evening on return commute but also more blood circulating from long walk to parking lot after work, etc.

Either way, I am in the mid to upper 3's if greater than ¾ freeway, in the mid 4's if its 50/50.

 

[user 24513]

Your ranges sound right, your climate is a bit warmer, and I might have a few years on you as well! Off-topic, I spent some time in Kotzebue in the early seventies (before the pipeline), have felt that cold all I want to!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Your ranges sound right, your climate is a bit warmer, and I might have a few years on you as well! Off-topic, I spent some time in Kotzebue in the early seventies (before the pipeline), have felt that cold all I want to!

Ah ok so you know that temperatures in Alaska mean next to nothing. I was at Ft. Greeley about 100 miles south of Fairbanks and the temps between -20 and +20 came with an everpresent wind. a LOT of wind. Thankfully, when we hit -30 and down (lowest during my time there was -58) the wind was generally calm.

I remember getting on the ice skating rink, holding my coat out and having the wind blow me across. I was fearless... well below 25 mph that is :shock: :? :lol:

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

New record charging rate today:

Thank you for charging with Electrify America.

Assistance: 1-833-632-2778

12/07/2019 04:39:26 PM
Lincolnwood Town Center
3333 W Touhy Ave.
Lincolnwood, Illinois 60712
Charger #200014-01
Connector #2

Total paid: $6.30

Session ID: 147782

Charging pricing: $1.00/session + $0.25/minute (pre-tax)

Charging cost: $6.30
Discount: $0.00
Idling: $0.00 ($0.40/min)
Sales tax (0%): $0.00

End state of charge: 50%
Total energy delivered: 23.4 kWh
Max charging rate: 75.96 kW
Charging time: 00:21:12
Grace period: 00:11 min
Paid idle time: 00:00

75 to about 19%
67kWh at 35%
62 kw at 40%
60 kWh at 43%
58 kW at 45%
56kW at 48%
55kW at 50%

 

[webeleafowners]

New record charging rate today:

Thank you for charging with Electrify America.

Assistance: 1-833-632-2778

12/07/2019 04:39:26 PM
Lincolnwood Town Center
3333 W Touhy Ave.
Lincolnwood, Illinois 60712
Charger #200014-01
Connector #2

Total paid: $6.30

Session ID: 147782

Charging pricing: $1.00/session + $0.25/minute (pre-tax)

Charging cost: $6.30
Discount: $0.00
Idling: $0.00 ($0.40/min)
Sales tax (0%): $0.00

End state of charge: 50%
Total energy delivered: 23.4 kWh
Max charging rate: 75.96 kW
Charging time: 00:21:12
Grace period: 00:11 min
Paid idle time: 00:00

75 to about 19%
67kWh at 35%
62 kw at 40%
60 kWh at 43%
58 kW at 45%
56kW at 48%
55kW at 50%

Thanks Doug. Hey was that on a 50 kW machine? They seem to underate them.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

New record charging rate today:

Thank you for charging with Electrify America.

Assistance: 1-833-632-2778

12/07/2019 04:39:26 PM
Lincolnwood Town Center
3333 W Touhy Ave.
Lincolnwood, Illinois 60712
Charger #200014-01
Connector #2

Total paid: $6.30

Session ID: 147782

Charging pricing: $1.00/session + $0.25/minute (pre-tax)

Charging cost: $6.30
Discount: $0.00
Idling: $0.00 ($0.40/min)
Sales tax (0%): $0.00

End state of charge: 50%
Total energy delivered: 23.4 kWh
Max charging rate: 75.96 kW
Charging time: 00:21:12
Grace period: 00:11 min
Paid idle time: 00:00

75 to about 19%
67kWh at 35%
62 kw at 40%
60 kWh at 43%
58 kW at 45%
56kW at 48%
55kW at 50%

Thanks Doug. Hey was that on a 50 kW machine? They seem to underate them.

The one in Lacey runs as high as 200 amps. I don't know of any that run slower than 150 amps which would "equate" to 60 KW. Doug? Do you have LEAF Spy? What was your maximum current?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

I do have Leafspy, but didn’t have it with me when I charged.

The machine was BTC Power
Model EDVSP 350 5 120 0 2 C 4 0
Output 200-950 VDC. 350 AMP max

Anyone know of a Chademo attached to a 350kW charger?

If the Chademo is with a 150 CCS, you can generally get well above 50KW.

If the CCS is listed at 50, the Chademo will cap at 45 or so.

I need to try charging when the car is at 5 or 6 % on Leafspy to see whether 80+ is doable.

I wish EA showed you the colts and amps like EvGO.