2019 Leaf battery overheating

[smkettner]

We need a head to head test on this. A good 600 mile run would be great with same starting point, same time, same charge level, same temperature etc.
Some rag needs to pick up on this factor of performance and economy and do the test side by side.

Warmer temperatures advantage Bolt.
Longer runs (due to Bolt tapering) advantage LEAF.

Which car do you want to win?

If you have a Bolt and a LEAF lined up I could possibly tag along with my I-Pace.
I would hope my Jaguar is #1 but the information would be more important than who wins.
All in fun right?

 

[Nubo]

Which one do I want to win? I don't think it's a race. Both cars have their advantages and disadvantages.

But one thing I am seeing is that with both the 40 kWh and the 62kWh LEAF, that the argument for mandatory active cooling is losing steam. Despite it's standardization on passive cooling, the LEAF remains the best selling BEV model in the world with over 400K sold. We also see validation of its reliability by what we don't see, which is a torrent of degradation complaints on 2016 through the present model years. We also see those that have suggested that their own 40 kWh cars are preforming quite well with only minor degradation, myself included.

Without the cost of these active systems baked into the vehicle, they are available with more features and a lower price than their competitors, and give an option to drive a new BEV to those with limited means.

What I also see is the need for better pre-sales education of those buyers to the ying and yang of the 40 kWh car and the nuances of quick charging that just because a charger pedestal says it is a particular rating, does not mean that it will supply that rating at any given time.

This goes for all BEVs from Tesla to Fiat. As Dave can attest every vehicle has owners that are upset that quick charging takes too long for them. Does that mean that their vehicle is defective, or does it mean that the complainers don't have a complete understanding of the nuances of charging a BEV battery?

Valid points here, and I have said before I am attrracted to the simplicity of the passive cooling approach. But as the capabilities of EVs improve, people are going to demand fewer impediments to long-distance travel. Whether we're at the point where that expectation is critical is an open question.

As much as it bugs me to hear of how quickly these packs accumulate heat, Nissan may well be skating to where the puck is going to be, at the appropriate speed. The market will decide. Lots of people fantasize they have the same needs as a long-haul trucker, just like some folks imagine they prefer blue-eyed blondes but then they fall in love with a dark-haired brown-eyed beauty.

 

[LeftieBiker]

We also see validation of its reliability by what we don't see, which is a torrent of degradation complaints on 2016 through the present model years.

Reading with closed eyes again, are you...?

 

[jlv]

Despite it's standardization on passive cooling, the LEAF remains the best selling BEV model in the world

For a few more months.

 

[metricus]

I am guessing this will not make you happy to know that 30 kwh LEAFs can charge MULTIPLE times at EA at 57 KW...

I have no reason to not be happy, I'm just pissed that my 2019 can't. I hoped they had worked out the bugs by now.

 

[metricus]

As much as it bugs me to hear of how quickly these packs accumulate heat, Nissan may well be skating to where the puck is going to be, at the appropriate speed. The market will decide.

Without any doubt the active cooling systems will disappear as battery tech improves. I am sure Nissan designed gen2 with a different battery in mind. (maybe LG) It appears that the decision to use this pack was done in haste. Most likely the bookies dictated to the engineers. This does not solve my problem though.

Lots of people fantasize they have the same needs as a long-haul trucker, just like some folks imagine they prefer blue-eyed blondes but then they fall in love with a dark-haired brown-eyed beauty.

This was no fantasy for me. My 2016 was very able to do multiple charges at top amps. I just wanted a bit more range than 150km/80mi

I don't have a need for a long daily commute, but occasionally I need a longer trip to the NYC area or DC area. There are plenty of chargers on those routes and I would have had no problem if this thing had not overheated so badly. The ride in the Leaf is much more enjoyable than my Prius.

 

[metricus]

For a few more months.

Correct.

Also, people place Gen1 and Gen2 in same pot. Two different cars.

 

[OrientExpress]

The Model 3 is at about 220K right now, and the LEAF will be at about 550K by the end of the year, so a few more months might be quite a few. If Tesla continues at a production rate of 15/mo. It will take them 22 months to hit 550K vehicles. In the mean time, if the LEAF continues with a run rate of 5K/mo, in 22 months they will be at 660k world wide. Of course this does not consider the sales growth of both models.

Lastly the 2011 through 2019 LEAFs are all built on the same Nissan B platform.

 

[SageBrush]

The Model 3 is at about 220K right now, and the LEAF will be at about 550K by the end of the year, so a few more months might be quite a few.

Soon enough you are going to have to require LHD Model 3 with white upholstery to keep up the sham stat.

 

[Nubo]

Lots of people fantasize they have the same needs as a long-haul trucker, just like some folks imagine they prefer blue-eyed blondes but then they fall in love with a dark-haired brown-eyed beauty.

This was no fantasy for me. My 2016 was very able to do multiple charges at top amps. I just wanted a bit more range than 150km/80mi

Of course; I didn't mean to say that nobody had such requirements. Just that there's often a difference between what people think they want, and what they actually find satisfying in the end.

 

[metricus]

I am truly thankful to everyone posting here and this thread has helped me a lot to identify the core of the issue and most importantly to learn about LeafSpy which helped me reach a quantifiable conclusion.

My plan right now is to send a written request to the Service Manager with clear and succinct description of the issue then ask for the vehicle to be fixed.

So I wanted to seek the forum's opinion in writing an accurate description of the problems such that they cannot come back with BS.

Here is what I would say:

1. Vehicle cannot be driven under normal conditions for more than 200-250 miles due to battery overheating.
Description: The battery gains heat constantly during use. After said mileage the gauge goes on red and the vehicle eventually switches to safe (turtle) mode. This situation happens even temperate climate (50s-60s). The only way to regain use of the vehicle is to park it in a cool place (garage) for 10 hours or more.

2. Vehicle cannot be Quick Charged at the advertised rate under normal driving conditions due to battery overheating.
Description: The battery heats up constantly during use such that after the vehicle is driven 100-150 miles and needs to be recharged, the battery temperature is so high that the charge power is throttled down considerably sometimes to half the advertised rate of 50kW resulting in much longer charge times than advertised. After a second or third charge the power is throttled to as low as 14kW.

So my questions to the forum are:

Is this fool-proof clear? Would you rephrase anything? Is it too long? Would you agree with the statements? Etc.. etc...

Go ahead guys, do what you do best...

 

[SageBrush]

Do you think you can prove false advertising ?

 

[rogersleaf]

It's doubtful than anyone would question your observations or the stated facts. It's more a dispute about interpreting advertising claims vs. the engineered design limits of the product, and what was disclosed about those design limits at the time of purchase. I recall my own recent purchase included signing a multiple page carbon-less copy disclosure agreement concerning design limits of the car, and would also assume this is standard fare with any US Leaf purchase/lease. It safe to assume that either Nissan or your dealer will refer to that document as a customer accepting reduced charging rates with a hot battery condition.

The one aspect I see missing from your complaint is a proposed resolution. I can't speak for Nissan or your dealer. However, in my own working environment, receiving complaints without knowing an acceptable path forward gets summarily dismissed as useless bitching. I do wish you the best of luck achieving a resolution.

 

[metricus]

Do you think you can prove false advertising ?

The advertised rate of charge can only be achieved under specific conditions that are not part of the regular driving pattern (resting at dealer overnight and then charged in the morning) which makes it the exemption and not the norm.

what was disclosed about those design limits at the time of purchase. I recall my own recent purchase included signing a multiple page carbon-less copy disclosure agreement concerning design limits of the car, and would also assume this is standard fare with any US Leaf purchase/lease.

I have checked and no such paper seems to exist. I will look deeper. It would help if you could tell me more specifics Like what is the title of that document and where exactly is the statement. Based on my discussion with the sales lady with whom I have dealt several times and she is really nice, she was surprised to hear and admitted she did not know about any of this.

The one aspect I see missing from your complaint is a proposed resolution.

Brilliant observation. I will fix it. My desire is to have the issue repaired.

If you read through back posts you will see that I already asked for a repurchase which was denied for the reason that the car was not in service the time length required by law. The reason given by the Service manager (verbally) was that they cannot pay for a mechanic to drive it for 200 miles. That however is not my problem so I have to force the issue.

NOTE: my car is leased but "repurchase" is the term they use for returning the vehicle.

 

[SageBrush]

Do you think you can prove false advertising ?

The advertised rate of charge can only be achieved under specific conditions that are not part of the regular driving pattern (resting at dealer overnight and then charged in the morning) which makes it the exemption and not the norm.

Whose driving pattern ?
Yours ?
Mine ?
Everybody's ?
Anybody's ?

Define regular, presuming Nissan used that word.

I recommend watching TV adverts closely for an hour to get a feel for how much an advert can be misleading before it crosses the bounds into false advertising.

 

[metricus]

Whose driving patter

Define regular, presuming Nissan used that word.

What was on my mind when I worded it this way is what I think everyone is expected to do before going on a 200ile trip: charge overnight at home on L2. Drive the next day until "empty". Then charge and drive some more. Etc.

So what are you proposing? Should I reword it? Drop it?

The wording on the Leaf brochure makes it pretty clear that one should expect 50kW except some odd situations.

 

[SageBrush]

So what are you proposing? Should I reword it? Drop it?

I suppose I was pointing out that you are fighting advertising weasel wording with your own subjective phrasing. That is fine in a court of public opinion like this forum but the bar is higher in a real court where you have to pay to play.

 

[metricus]

Not suing. Just arguing my reason for repurchase.

But I get your point. I'll think about the wording .

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to add a paragraph with the steps on how to replicate the condition, much like one has to do when reporting software bugs.

In absence of such clear description you leave the developer in the dark. Not much more than bitching.

 

[lorenfb]

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to add a paragraph with the steps on how to replicate the condition, much like one has to do when reporting software bugs.

Nissan is well aware of your issues (your defined 2019 Leaf deficiencies) and isn't going to acknowledge the issues as being problematic,
i.e. Nissan really doesn't care to have a class action lawsuit evolve nor increase its future Leaf liabilities.

 

[SageBrush]

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to add a paragraph with the steps on how to replicate the condition, much like one has to do when reporting software bugs.

Yes, and perhaps include thresholds for decreased performance.

E.g., something along the lines of 'my car charges at under 40 kW after 50 miles of driving in 20C weather at speeds below 65 mph on level ground. This is a consistent and reproducible finding.' 'Moreover, after 100 miles of the same type of driving ...'
'In the summer daytime temperatures are 10C warmer and the car performance is further degraded ...'