2019 Leaf battery overheating
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OrientExpress
Well-known member
ChozoGhost79 said:
Some clarification, if your temperature gauge is between the second blue mark and the first red mark, that is the normal operating temperature of the battery and it is not overheating. Overheating is the temperatures beyond the second red mark, and that will invoke automatic power reduction similar to turtle mode.
The vehicle will automatically reduce the charge rate based on a number of considerations after a number of fast charges to protect the battery.
ChozoGhost79
Well-known member
Yes, it was on the first red line, so technically not overheating, but still the charge rate was about half what it would be on a cool battery. This reduces the usefulness of the car considerably, since only one DC fast charge can be used in a day without the charge rate being reduced.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
ChozoGhost79 said:
There are a number of things that can affect the speed of the charging rate, one of which is the charging profile programming of the car that takes into consideration the temperature of the battery, the number of charges in a time period, and the level of charge in the battery. This is set by the manufacturer, and while they are all different, they all have commonality of how they taper the charge rates over time and for many irrespective of the internal temperature of the battery.
But the other thing that is often overlooked in how fast the charge will be is the charger pedestal itself and how it is configured by the provider.
For CHAdeMO there are two generic amperages 100 and 125 amps but that is only the rated service capability for the charger. Add into that if the charger is sharing a service line with another charger, the ambient temperature of the charger which may cause it to reduce the energy provided, and how the service provider has the charger profile set to be to avoid demand charges from the utility, or to just increase their revenue on a per-minute-based session.
For example, my local EVgo charger (as others in the vicinity are) is rated at 100 amps, and are labeled as 50 kW chargers, but the most that it will provide to any BEV at any temperature is 35 kW tops. I've charged LEAFs, VWs, Bolts, iPaces, Niros and Konas at this charger using either the CHAdeMo or CSS plug, and it's always the same.
But others that have access to 125 amp 50 kW chargers report initial charging rates of 45 kWs. Even the 85 kW chargers in our area only provide 58 kW regardless of plug or vehicle.
The moral is that charging times are not black and white nor set in stone, and that your charging rate and time may/will vary.
In a test that I did with a 40kWh LEAF that I drove for 7 hours continuously, pausing only for three 45 minute quick charges (which is the default for a charging session with the EVgo chargers that I use.) I drove the car at speeds in excess of 80mph including into 35 Kt. headwinds, and noted that a 45 minute charge provided me fills of 92%, 88% and 62% percent of the battery. These sessions were 35kW/28kW, 32kW/24kW, and 18 kW/18kW. Each of the sessions started with a battery that was 20-22% charged.
During the 7 hours of the test the battery temperature went from one third of the normal range to mid-range for the first and second sections of the drive and then close to the first red mark on the last section before the third quick charge, and then after the 3rd quick charge the indicated battery temperature went back down to about 3/4 of normal. After the last session, I let the car sit for 30 minutes, and it was back to the mid range again.
This behavior isn't unique to the LEAF, to one degree or another it happens to all BEVs regardless if they are passively or actively cooled. It's part of each vehicles temperature management profile.
This is why I don't recommend any BEV for a long distance trip unless you have the patience for the extended charging times. It's not because the BEV is overheating or defective, it is doing what it is programmed to do, which is to taper the charge as the battery fills up or reaches higher temperatures, to protect the battery from damage.
Until BEVs can meet or beat the 80/400/30/30 rule, this will be the downside of trying to use a BEV for long distance travel. If you need to get from point A to Point B in a day which is more than 250 miles and insist in driving it in a BEV, then patience is the keyword.
ChozoGhost79
Well-known member
I'm aware of the amp limits for CHAdeMO, so I expect charge KW to be in the 30-45 range (120 amps X whatever the pack voltage is) until the pack gets up to it's full voltage (396 volts), then it's constant voltage and the current starts to fall, which is the standard lithium chemistry charge profile. My gripe, and the OP's gripe is Nissan's not bothering with a liquid cooling system for the pack, which means you only get one DCFC and then you have to wait for considerably reduced charge KW. Had they put in sufficient cooling the throttling back would be much less, and a driver would be able to just let the car sit for 15 mins to bring the temp down in most cases. Nissan will lose their market share if they don't address this and make their EV as useful as competitors. As it stands this probably will be my last Nissan, taking into account this particular problem and a crappy dealer experience when taking delivery of the car.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
The complaint that it takes longer than desired to charge isn’t going to be changed by the type of battery management the vehicle has. I see the same complaints from Tesla, Bolt and VW BEV owners. Fortunately like with the LEAF they are the minority of owners.
The bottom line is that BEVs simply are not the equivalent of a conventional vehicle when it comes to long distance travel. It will take longer regardless of the brand or it’s technology. If the objective is long distance travel with the same ease that conventional that ICEs have, you have the wrong vehicle and will be disappointed.
For the last nine years the LEAF has been the best selling BEVin the world by over a 2:1 ratio to its closest competitor the Model 3 and continues to sell well and maintain that lead worldwide. The key to that is that the vast majority of owners understand what the car’s strengths are and use the car accordingly. Long distance travel is not a BEVs strong suite.
The bottom line is that BEVs simply are not the equivalent of a conventional vehicle when it comes to long distance travel. It will take longer regardless of the brand or it’s technology. If the objective is long distance travel with the same ease that conventional that ICEs have, you have the wrong vehicle and will be disappointed.
For the last nine years the LEAF has been the best selling BEVin the world by over a 2:1 ratio to its closest competitor the Model 3 and continues to sell well and maintain that lead worldwide. The key to that is that the vast majority of owners understand what the car’s strengths are and use the car accordingly. Long distance travel is not a BEVs strong suite.
ChozoGhost79
Well-known member
I'm not willing to accept that is a reason for reduced usefulness. Tesla has liquid cooling for a reason. It allows practical long distance travel, which would be a possibility if they engineered the liquid cooling like they should. Like I said, competitors are catching up.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
ChozoGhost79 said:
It is what it is, if your LEAF doesn’t work for you why not just get a Tesla?
ChozoGhost79
Well-known member
That's the plan once the lease is up.
smkettner
Well-known member
Or Bolt, or E-Tron, or I-Pace, or Kona etc.OrientExpress said:
WetEV
Well-known member
ChozoGhost79 said:
There are drawbacks to liquid cooling. Like increased risk of fires.
Ever think that some people might not want liquid cooling for their BEV?
OrientExpress
Well-known member
ChozoGhost79 said:
By 2022 there will be quite a selection available from different Marques. I’ve got a Taycan on my radar.
I think that you have made that extremely clear.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
The bigger question for any manufacturer that is weighing a feature request that only affects a minority of potential sales is how that feature effects the majority of sales.
Manufacturers always have a ton of data on what sells and what doesn’t and why. The LEAF is the bestselling BEV worldwide and that’s with the battery systems they have. The main and only objection for the LEAF from the outliers is that it takes too long to charge. But when asked what is too long the answer is difficult to quantify.
As an example with my 7 hour charging test with 3 quick charges, if all 3 had been done at the same speed as the first one the total time saved would have been a total of seventeen minutes. So instead of a total charge time of 152 minutes, it would take 135 minutes. It would be even less with a 125 amp pedestal. Somehow 17 minutes does not warrant the outrage of the issue.
Manufacturers always have a ton of data on what sells and what doesn’t and why. The LEAF is the bestselling BEV worldwide and that’s with the battery systems they have. The main and only objection for the LEAF from the outliers is that it takes too long to charge. But when asked what is too long the answer is difficult to quantify.
As an example with my 7 hour charging test with 3 quick charges, if all 3 had been done at the same speed as the first one the total time saved would have been a total of seventeen minutes. So instead of a total charge time of 152 minutes, it would take 135 minutes. It would be even less with a 125 amp pedestal. Somehow 17 minutes does not warrant the outrage of the issue.
There is a line between being a Fan who believes strongly in Nissan, and just insulting the intelligence of the people here. Please try to stay on the other side of it.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
OrientExpress said:
This isn't heat. It's just you misrepresenting the truth, which is that a lot of people are less than happy with Nissan's battery packs and, especially, with their lack of active thermal management. If you can't even bring yourself to admit that much, your credibility is going to be on its last leg.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I can only guess. Many years prior to Leaf Spy having been written, I'd spoken to someone you know who suggested your behavior was for personal gain by attempting to curry favor w/Nissan corporate.OrientExpress said:
Why else you would try to downplay, deflect and confuse people when there was clear capacity loss in hot climates via the posts that Tony pointed to at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=221444#p221444? And, why would you then wipe virtually all of your own responses?
It seems the same pattern is emerging again, but of different issues...
ChozoGhost79
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
Different issues now, but the conversation could very well turn back to capacity loss in hot climates, unless these new batteries are much more heat tolerant despite no active thermal management.
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