WetEV
Well-known member
GRA said:We're agreed that mass consumer buy-in of BEVs is at least one (car) generation away, until they come closer to meeting people's requirements. That will take better, cheaper, longer-lasting batteries and a lot more charging infrastructure.WetEV said:BEVs are different, not "normal", and some of those differences are very positive.GRA said:mass consumer buy-in
We disagree that the goal is abrupt change rather than gradual change. Lasting change happens "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.” While we have been having this discussion, BEVs have gone from 0.1% of the market to 2% of the market. I'm interested in getting 4%, then 8% and so on. You want to see abrupt mass adoption. Abrupt is only possible with a command economy, and there are lots of drawbacks to a command economy.
GRA said:WetEV said:Sure, if I was commanding what cars were available, PHEVs would make more sense. And I'll recommend PHEVs to anyone that fits the following profile:
1) Could drive mostly in AER
2) Long drives to anywhere without infrastructure. Or lots of long drives.
Notice that I would not recommend a PHEV to you. Or a BEV for that matter. Not enough AER use.
We agree on whose needs are best matched by a PHEV.
I should add one item to the profile.
3) Accepts complexity. A PHEV is both a plug-in and a gasoline burner, not simple to manage. Typical of early adopter.
GRA said:Lower price, performance, go anywhere without the hassle of BEVs, pretty much the points I've previously mentioned.WetEV said:Persuasion is different than command. Rather than saying it will hurt less to switch to a PHEV, I think pointing out the really nice features of a BEV puts more butts in seats. And BEV drivers are loyal to BEVs. Sure, some discover that infrastructure makes a BEV impractical for them, and switch back to a PHEV or evan an ICE. Sure, this requires a more complex view of the market than just "mass market". It accepts that change is gradual, not sudden.
I have Trump loving truck driving relatives. I can talk to them about EVs, show them videos of White Zombie, NIO EP9 tearing up the Green Hell, the electric mustang taking on the Texas mile, and even talk about EV semi trailer trucks lower maintenance costs and both advantages and drawbacks. I can't think of a single way to talk about PHEVs. Suggestions??
A PHEV will always cost more than an ICE. Subsidies matter most here, all of the PHEV battery qualifies, unlike a BEV where the subsidy only covers a small fraction of the battery size.
Performance PHEV? Eh, no. HEV can have a performance edge... the fastest car around Nordschleife was a Porshe HEV. But no gain for making the battery plug-in.
Porsche 919 Hybrid EVO, current number 2 is a BEV Volkswagen ID.R.
A PHEV mostly running as a HEV might be fairly fast, see (future but likely) AMG GT73 PHEV. Start with a 630 hp ICE, add 200 hp of electric power and a rumored sub 10 mile AER. Basically a HEV. Oh, and not cheap.
Oh, and talk about trucks. No cost advantage to a PHEV for a truck. Lots of advantage (maintenance, availability and fuel) to a BEV local or regional delivery truck, range of 100 miles to 400 miles, depending on route. Cousin talks to me about EV trucks and likely future batteries, because I'm an EV guy.
GRA said:There's also a need to alter the perks and reduce or eliminate subsidies for all ZEVs, which would boost the economic argument for PHEVs vs. BEVs.
Say what? PHEVs get a subsidy on all of their tiny battery. Eliminate the subsidy, and HEVs and BEVs look more attractive.
GRA said:If you've been reading the general EV sales topic, you'll notice that over the last few months PHEV sales have been greater than BEV sales in most European countries. While it's too early to be sure of the reasons, my guess is that the early adopters have bought their BEVs, and now more mainstream customers are making the more rational choice for PHEVs. Whatever the reason, it does show that PHEVs can sell.WetEV said:Of the top ten worldwide sellers, only two are PHEVs:
PHEVs get a subsidy on all of their tiny battery. Eliminate the subsidy, and HEVs and BEVs look more attractive.