Blink / Rav4 Blows Out a Contactor Pin (with gory pics)

[TonyWilliams]

Tony,

Have you tried charging Rav4 with with Blinks in the wild ?

I have, a few times. I now have the 70C thermal protection (this is too cheap and simple not to do, thanks Phil!!) and I carry a cheap $20 Sears IR temperature measuring tool.

I'm guessing you didn't have an a\issue with any other Blinks, then ?

Just trying to assess the extent of the problematic Blink units.

Sometimes I feel, Ecotality is single handedly responsible for slowing adoption with their real bungling of the work for which they got free money. Very poor selection on EPA's part.

I personally have not had an issue with any other Blink (ok, must clarify, no heating issues in addition to all the other issues that are typical with Blink).

But, again, I avoid them as much as possible, and trust but verify the temperature, and have a safety switch to not burn down my car.

 

[MikeD]

If the 2013 Leafs (especially with 6.6kW on-board charger) monitor for excessive J1772 inlet temperature as TonyWilliams thinks, and react by reducing the charging rate (i.e. requesting a lesser amperage from the EVSE) to reduce the inlet temperature to a safe operating level, I would think that because almost all Blinks communicate info for the EV Project that very likely Ecotality could see this current reduction and react by sending out a service-person and/or disabling the EVSE. After all, there are multiple possible reasons for high inlet temperatures as noted in my previous recent post, including loosened terminations, corrosion, excessive pin/sleeve connector wear, foreign substances, accidental/deliberate damage, etc on both sides of the connection -- and multiple causes may exist at the same time.

If all EVs w/ 30a charging monitored as above, doesn't the "excessive charging inlet temperature" concern disappear?

 

[evnow]

.. I would think that because almost all Blinks communicate info for the EV Project that very likely Ecotality could see this current reduction and react by sending out a service-person and/or disabling the EVSE.

That would be totally out of character for Ecotality

If this is a widespread problems with Blink chargers, they need to start fixing them asap.

BTW, I don't like this charging at reduced current at all. I expect a certain speed of charging (esp. in the wild) - don't want that reduced without me knowing. May be Leaf can send me a mail that the charging rate has reduced - but I don't think it does any of that. If it sees higher temperature (if MY13 is equipped), it would just stop charging - which is the currect thing to do. Only in the beginning of a charging session can the charging rate be negotiated.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... If it sees higher temperature (if MY13 is equipped), it would just stop charging - which is the currect thing to do. Only in the beginning of a charging session can the charging rate be negotiated.

No, the J1772 must change charge rate to new requests from the car. The Honda fix for Blink is a reduced charge rate based on their installed thermistors.

I would also want a notification that there was a problem, rather than sit around for 5 hours only to find out it stopped/slowed down.

If I knew that, I might move the car to a different charging station.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Tony,

Have you tried charging Rav4 with with Blinks in the wild ?

I have, a few times. I now have the 70C thermal protection (this is too cheap and simple not to do, thanks Phil!!) and I carry a cheap $20 Sears IR temperature measuring tool.

I'm guessing you didn't have an a\issue with any other Blinks, then ?

Just trying to assess the extent of the problematic Blink units.

Sometimes I feel, Ecotality is single handedly responsible for slowing adoption with their real bungling of the work for which they got free money. Very poor selection on EPA's part.

Of the dozen Blink units I have visited, I have had problems with about half of them. Units that are not powered, blank, touch screen misalignment, no RFID recognition, or won’t authorize make it hard to get to the actual charge session. I’ve learned not to include Blink in a travel plan without a backup option. They have become my charge site of last resort. A shame as they are often in useful locations. So I have been avoiding them when possible. I do a lot of public charging, and have seen no such problems on the ClipperCreek or ChargePoint units I typically use.

Like you, I think eTec / ECOtality / Blink / Roush Manufacturing, Inc seem in a good position to derail EV adoption. I’m disappointed to hear Mr. Katz dismissive attitude about product quality issues his company supplies. I would expect a more proactive attitude considering he is spending taxpayer money. I will continue to avoid Blink sites, out of caution and necessity, unless they are able to address their reliability issues.

 

[evnow]

Good point, and less invasive too. The ITT Cannon cable set from Leviton could be less costly than Yazaki.

Wow, what a good price for 25 feet:

30 Amp J1772 Level 2 Electric Vehicle Charge Connector with 25 Ft. Cord, A3435-PEV

Price:
$133.98

How is the cable attached to Blink - is it soldered / on nuts & bolts ?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Good point, and less invasive too. The ITT Cannon cable set from Leviton could be less costly than Yazaki.

Wow, what a good price for 25 feet:

30 Amp J1772 Level 2 Electric Vehicle Charge Connector with 25 Ft. Cord, A3435-PEV

Price:
$133.98

How is the cable attached to Blink - is it soldered / on nuts & bolts ?

Simple tools, no soldering. Allen wrench, screw driver, adjustable jaw wrench.

Also, sharp cutting tool to trim insulation from the new wires.

 

[davewill]

No, the J1772 must change charge rate to new requests from the car. The Honda fix for Blink is a reduced charge rate based on their installed thermistors. ...

No, it doesn't work that way. The J1772 EVSE advertises the MAX current it can deliver. The car then draws whatever if wants, up to that max. If the car decides it needs to lower the current, whether because the battery is getting full, or the connection is over temp, it simply pulls less amperage. There's no "negotiation" involved.

If the 2013 Leafs (especially with 6.6kW on-board charger) monitor for excessive J1772 inlet temperature as TonyWilliams thinks, and react by reducing the charging rate (i.e. requesting a lesser amperage from the EVSE) to reduce the inlet temperature to a safe operating level, I would think that because almost all Blinks communicate info for the EV Project that very likely Ecotality could see this current reduction and react by sending out a service-person and/or disabling the EVSE. ...

Probably not so easy. The cars already reduce current when they get near 100%. It would somewhere between difficult and impossible to tell a thermal reduction from an end of charge reduction.

 

[TonyWilliams]

No, the J1772 must change charge rate to new requests from the car. The Honda fix for Blink is a reduced charge rate based on their installed thermistors. ...

No, it doesn't work that way. The J1772 EVSE advertises the MAX current it can deliver. The car then draws whatever if wants, up to that max. If the car decides it needs to lower the current, whether because the battery is getting full, or the connection is over temp, it simply pulls less amperage. There's no "negotiation" involved.

I'm not sure what you're saying that's different than what I said. Yes, the car specifies how much to draw, but whether you call that negotiation or not, it still communicates both ways.

http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The J1772 Pilot is a 1khz +12V to -12V square wave, the voltage defines the state and the duty cycle defines the current available to the EV. The EVSE sets the duty cycle "[in other words, tells the car what the maximum amps it can provide] "and the EV adds resistance from the pilot to Ground to vary the voltage. The EVSE reads the voltage and changes state accordingly."

State.......Pilot Volt Hi.....Pilot Volt Low......EV ohms.....Description.....PWM
State A .......+12v.................N/A................N/A.......Not Connected......DC
State B.........+9v.................-12v...............2.74k........Connected....1000 Hz
State C........+6v.................-12v.................882..........Charging......1000 Hz
State D........+3v.................-12v.................246...Ventilation Required 1000 Hz
State E...........0v....................0v..................N/A..........No power........N/A
State F.........N/A.................-12v................N/A..........EVSE Error.........DC

 

[davewill]

I'm not sure what you're saying that's different than what I said. Yes, the car specifies how much to draw, but whether you call that negotiation or not, it still communicates both ways.

http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The J1772 Pilot is a 1khz +12V to -12V square wave, the voltage defines the state and the duty cycle defines the current available to the EV. The EVSE sets the duty cycle "[in other words, tells the car what the maximum amps it can provide] "and the EV adds resistance from the pilot to Ground to vary the voltage. The EVSE reads the voltage and changes state accordingly."

State.......Pilot Volt Hi.....Pilot Volt Low......EV ohms.....Description.....PWM
State A .......+12v.................N/A................N/A.......Not Connected......DC
State B.........+9v.................-12v...............2.74k........Connected....1000 Hz
State C........+6v.................-12v.................882..........Charging......1000 Hz
State D........+3v.................-12v.................246...Ventilation Required 1000 Hz
State E...........0v....................0v..................N/A..........No power........N/A
State F.........N/A.................-12v................N/A..........EVSE Error.........DC

The voltage they're talking about is the voltage of the pilot. The car does not tell the EVSE to change power output...it can't. The OBC can set the above states (essentially on, off, and vent), and it just draws what it draws. Anyway, the only reason I brought it up was to point out that the Blink doesn't get told the power level the car wants. It would only know because there's a current meter integrated.

 

[LEAFer]

The EVSE changes state, not current supplied, nor duty cycle (which is an indication of max current car should draw). The current is controlled by the car (in case of AC charging). The only way the Blink knows something went "wrong" is by energy delivered versus expected rate of power over the time period connected. The reduced rate, however, as already indicated by someone else, may be due to reaching 100% SOC or other factors (such as the car voluntarily reducing charging current for other reasons).

Edit: "other reasons" (for example in a Tesla Roadster) on a hot day might include the PEM (power electronics module) getting too hot or the battery TMS being unable to keep up with cooling of the battery while charging at a high rate.

 

[Spies]

Good point, and less invasive too. The ITT Cannon cable set from Leviton could be less costly than Yazaki.

Wow, what a good price for 25 feet:

30 Amp J1772 Level 2 Electric Vehicle Charge Connector with 25 Ft. Cord, A3435-PEV

Price:
$133.98

Anyone have experience with this one? At $133.98 and possibly free shipping I may just order one myself.

 

[Randy]

It's rated for 30 amps and has #10 wire, which would be fine for a 3.3kW LEAF. But if you're getting up into the 6kW or higher range and want to charge at 30 or 32 amps, you may want to get larger wire. I ended up purchasing a Leviton 40 amp cordset that uses #8 wire that is more substantial...

 

[Spies]

It's rated for 30 amps and has #10 wire, which would be fine for a 3.3kW LEAF. But if you're getting up into the 6kW or higher range and want to charge at 30 or 32 amps, you may want to get larger wire. I ended up purchasing a Leviton 40 amp cordset that uses #8 wire that is more substantial...

Thanks for the info! I agree that it would be better to go with #8 wire and a more robust plug if charging regularly at 30 amps. I don't see the 40 amp set on the Leviton site but I do see the 75 amp set for $218.69. I wonder what gauge is on the 75 amp set. Mind sharing what you paid for the 40 amp set?

Duh! The cable specs are on the Leviton site. The 75 amp use #6 gauge.

 

[hill]

All connectors are prone to damage and wear out. Personally, I don't think the J1772 connector is a good enough design for high-utilization at high currents (much over 30A). In this case, Tony was pulling 30A from the blink. I routinely pull this as well with my upgraded Leaf's charger, and the connector definitely gets warm. I regularly inspect it, and occasionally monitor the temperature just to be sure. So far, so good! ......snip.....

What kinds of temps are you seeing?

Comments:

2) It now becomes clearer why 2 charging ports on a car can be better than one.

+1! I would never buy/lease a BEV without a QC port.

And since Toyota is already a Chademo member - - -

ARE YOU LISTENING TOYOTA?
(crickets)

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's rated for 30 amps and has #10 wire, which would be fine for a 3.3kW LEAF. But if you're getting up into the 6kW or higher range and want to charge at 30 or 32 amps, you may want to get larger wire. I ended up purchasing a Leviton 40 amp cordset that uses #8 wire that is more substantial...

Thanks for the info! I agree that it would be better to go with #8 wire and a more robust plug if charging regularly at 30 amps. I don't see the 40 amp set on the Leviton site but I do see the 75 amp set for $218.69. I wonder what gauge is on the 75 amp set. Mind sharing what you paid for the 40 amp set?

Duh! The cable specs are on the Leviton site. The 75 amp use #6 gauge.

I have the 75 amp ITT cable on my EVSE, and it is really clunky. I don't recommend going too far oversize unless you don't mind wrestling the cord.

 

[surfingslovak]

Anyone have experience with this one? At $133.98 and possibly free shipping I may just order one myself.

I bought one, and so have several others during their Black Friday promo last year. Haven't installed it yet, and there were no complaints from anyone so far. At least from what I can tell. The cord is really long for my application.

 

[evnow]

It's rated for 30 amps and has #10 wire, which would be fine for a 3.3kW LEAF. But if you're getting up into the 6kW or higher range and want to charge at 30 or 32 amps, you may want to get larger wire. I ended up purchasing a Leviton 40 amp cordset that uses #8 wire that is more substantial...

Hmmm .... isn't 30A enough for 6KW ? I'm sure that 30A rating itself would have some buffer. Leviton has a separate 15A cordset as well (for $10 more !).

 

[edatoakrun]

All connectors are prone to damage and wear out. Personally, I don't think the J1772 connector is a good enough design for high-utilization at high currents (much over 30A). In this case, Tony was pulling 30A from the blink. I routinely pull this as well with my upgraded Leaf's charger, and the connector definitely gets warm. I regularly inspect it, and occasionally monitor the temperature just to be sure. So far, so good! ......snip.....

What kinds of temps are you seeing?

Comments:

2) It now becomes clearer why 2 charging ports on a car can be better than one.

+1! I would never buy/lease a BEV without a QC port.

And since Toyota is already a Chademo member - - -

ARE YOU LISTENING TOYOTA?
(crickets)

Maybe this is why GM is limiting the "frankenport"-equipped Spark to 16 A @240V?

I don't think any BMW I3 owner will be amused, if a crappy or worn-out public L2 melts their "combo-port", before they even find an SAE DC charger to plug into...

 

[Red]

Just checked my J1772 connector after it had been charging the 3.5KW Leaf for a couple of hours. One pin was at 92 degrees, the others all in the 60's. Will contact Blink to see if they will replace the cable.