Can anyone help a noob down on his charge?

[charge]

Can anyone help a noob down on his charge?

Good news is we got our 2012 leaf on 1-28-12. We’ve been looking forward to this since we pre-ordered back on 4/21/10.

I've been reading this forum on and off since then. While I don't claim to be an expert, but I do know that temp, elevation, speed, climate control all affect range.

The Leaf is for my wife. Her commute is 21 miles each way. When she left today the car was fully charged. She did take one small trip at lunch to show the car to a co-worker. When she got home she only had 9 miles left. I was shocked. I was hoping for more than 50 miles out of a full charge.

My expectation is that we could get about 70 miles on a full charge and that she'd return home with about 30 miles or so left.

Let me provide as many details as possible and I hope I can get some feedback (either we're doing something wrong, the battery is defective, maybe my expectations were too high or maybe the battery has to "break in").

Charger - 110 trickle charger in garage
Temps - We're in CT and temp today was in the 30s
Overnight Car Storage - Overnight it's in our garage. A little warmer than outside. Maybe 45-50 in the garage overnight. She used the pre-heat option prior to leaving in the morning. Pre-heat started after the car had 100% charge
Daytime Storage - car in outside in a parking lot
Terrain - moderate hills, about 10-15 miles of flat stretch
Driving speed - about 40-45 miles per hour average. no highway
Climate Control - it was on low both ways
SOC at start of trip - The charge was 100%, but available miles were only 84. From what I've read here the 84 miles is a prediction based on prior driving history
Other Driving – As I mentioned above, she did give a co-worker a quick drive around the block at lunch. Probably drove 4-5 miles
Passengers - she was the only passenger and the car did not have anything else in it
ECO Mode- She only put ECO mode on a few times. Maybe 20% of the trip

If there's anything other details I should provide, please let me know. Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[keydiver]

You need to charge at 240 if you want to preheat without draining the battery.
Have you tried using the seat heater and steering wheel heater instead of the Climate Control?

 

[charge]

You need to charge at 240 if you want to preheat without draining the battery.
Have you tried using the seat heater and steering wheel heater instead of the Climate Control?

Hi Keydriver. Thanks for the response.

Yes, she was using the seat heater, steering wheel heater AND climate control on low. She would have turned off climate but she was not sure how to do it yet. We'll try just seat and steering wheel next time. Thanks for the suggestion.

Regarding 110 v. 240, I thought I read that others tried the pre-heat option with 110 and it worked - as long as the charge completes. Once the charge is done then pre-heat can begin without a drain on the battery. But maybe I misunderstood or didn't remember correctly.

 

[DurkaDurka]

According to members who have been doing measurements, battery capacity drops 1% for every 4 degrees under 70. If you are at 30 degrees, that's 10% down right there. Using climate control and driving aggressively (easier when doing city driving) can really knock your range down. Here's what I suggest :

1. Reset the trip computer each day
2. Reset the avg mile/KWh meter each day (dash, not CarWings)
3. Have her drive the car as she normally does

What this will do is tell you exactly how many miles she drove and her efficiency. If she is under 4 miles/KWh, she will need to adjust her driving style. If she must use climate control, it should be set to auto and as low as possible. Of course, the seat and steering wheel warmer should be used. Driving in ECO reduces HVAC usage as well.

 

[lpickup]

Give it more than 1 or 2 days to get used to driving efficiently. For the first week or two we were not driving as efficiently as we do now. I'm not saying you're going to have to drastically change your driving habits, but you'll have to drive smarter. For instance, I notice that most people around here are about 30 feet off the bumper in front of them. They speed up, you speed up too. They slam on their brakes, you do too. This is very wasteful. Just spacing out a little and letting regen do its trick and being a little lighter on the accelerator (because you know they're going to slow down in 5 seconds anyway!) really does do wonders for your range.

 

[charge]

According to members who have been doing measurements, battery capacity drops 1% for every 4 degrees under 70. If you are at 30 degrees, that's 10% down right there. Using climate control and driving aggressively (easier when doing city driving) can really knock your range down. Here's what I suggest :

1. Reset the trip computer each day
2. Reset the avg mile/KWh meter each day (dash, not CarWings)
3. Have her drive the car as she normally does

What this will do is tell you exactly how many miles she drove and her efficiency. If she is under 4 miles/KWh, she will need to adjust her driving style. If she must use climate control, it should be set to auto and as low as possible. Of course, the seat and steering wheel warmer should be used. Driving in ECO reduces HVAC usage as well.

Thanks. We'll try the resets the next time she drives and report back. She has a longer trip tomorrow. About 50 miles round trip and now she's afraid to take it that far. I may have to drive it tomorrow. My commute is only 20 mile round trip. Yeah for me!

 

[ebill3]

You need to charge at 240 if you want to preheat without draining the battery.

I don't think so. The car may not get up to the 77° design temperature, but the battery will not be used trying to get there.

Have you tried using the seat heater and steering wheel heater instead of the Climate Control?

People in my neck of the woods, where it gets into the 30's, have all experienced drastic range reductions, especially if using climate control. Each case is different and everyone's driving style is different. I would recommend 100% ECO, as that helps to prevent heavier draws when starting, and does temper the climate control consumption.

Bill

 

[charge]

You need to charge at 240 if you want to preheat without draining the battery.

I don't think so. The car may not get up to the 77° design temperature, but the battery will not be used trying to get there.

Have you tried using the seat heater and steering wheel heater instead of the Climate Control?

People in my neck of the woods, where it gets into the 30's, have all experienced drastic range reductions, especially if using climate control. Each case is different and everyone's driving style is different. I would recommend 100% ECO, as that helps to prevent heavier draws when starting, and does temper the climate control consumption.

Bill

Thanks Bill. We'll try 100% ECO next time and let you know what happens. Will also coach her on driving style.

 

[Caracalover]

First thing to know is how much charge you actually had at the end of her driving. The 9 mile estimate is not to be taken literally. I have seen 11 miles remaining with 4 bars of charge, or 1/3 (or more) of the battery remaining. I went over 20 miles from there and had three bars of charge and an higher estimation of distance left when I got home.

Do you live at the top of a hill? Going up steep grades uses a lot of energy, and giving "test" rides tends to do so as well. When you hit the accelerator and use 80KW of power in an instant, the computations of how much further you can drive go down quickly.

Think of the electric vehicle in terms of time of energy use, not miles able to be driven. You can drive the car many ways, and predicting how many miles you can go will be easy once you know where and how you are using your available charge.

So your wife has a 20 mile commute one way, and had the heater on. Since it was cold, she likely was pulling 3.5 KW for thirty to forty minutes each way, or about 7 KWH. Considering your battery has about 20KWH of usable energy, 1/3 was spent on heat, not driving. With it being a new car with a lot of pep in D mode, she likely enjoyed that aspect, using 20-80kw to take off from every stop. While it only takes a few seconds to get up to 35-45mph, that is energy that will not be regained through regen braking, since it tops off at 30KW.

In essence, your wife drove about an hour using around 12KWH average to get around, plus heater use (7KWH), leaving you with very little energy at the end of her commute. Likely one bar. While that sounds bad, there is a bit of padding so you likely had quite a bit of charge remaining, and if you drove on flat ground at 35 you could likely go 20 or more miles.

Have her look at the energy use screen to see where the energy is going. Hit the blue button on the lower right and then the green icon, energy information. The three usage meters will help her see exactly where she is using and regaining energy. If she wants to go further on a given day than work and back, she should drive more efficiently, and use the heater on defroster and feet mode, or drive in eco mode which limits how much power the heater will draw. I like to bundle up a bit more, and crank the heat hard for a few minutes when I get a bit chilled. 10 minutes of heater use set to 90 usually heats the cabin up pretty good, and will use less energy than leaving it on low constantly. I don't have a cold weather package so I don't know what that draws on the battery, or which gauge it will show up on.

Learning to use ECO, D or the brake to slow down can be learned by watching the big dial on this screen. I make it my default screen and glance at it - don't get distracted by watching it - but play with it and you will figure it out.

 

[abasile]

Learning to drive efficiently is key. That does not need to mean holding up traffic or taking forever to get to your destination.

For example, yesterday we drove a bit over 30 miles roundtrip on mountain roads, with plenty of ups and downs between 6100' elevation (home) and 4500' elevation (destination). Our speeds mostly ranged from 30 mph to 55 mph, and while we drove carefully, we never held anyone up. As it was a dry, sunny day with temperatures in the 40s most of the time, we didn't need climate control (and we don't have seat heaters). We had four battery temperature bars the whole drive, we started with about eight full bars of charge, and returned home with four full bars of charge. If we had charged to a full 80%, we probably could have done that drive twice, and still returned home with an okay margin.

One way to train yourself efficiency-wise is to keep an eye on the motor power shown on the Energy Info screen. Whenever you do not need to slow down or speed up, try to hold the accelerator pedal in a position that keeps the motor power at zero (sort of like coasting in neutral). Never let the motor power dip below zero (which means you are doing regenerative braking) unless you actually want to slow down. Otherwise, because regenerative braking can never be perfectly efficient, you are wasting energy. Try to accelerate smoothly with even power, not in a jerky manner. Whenever you do need to slow down, try to accomplish most of this by backing off of the accelerator in ECO mode and using the brake pedal as little as possible. If you can master those techniques, leave a bit more room in front of you, and anticipate upcoming traffic slowdowns as recommended by lpickup, you should notice an immediate, substantial improvement in efficiency and range.

 

[charge]

Learning to drive efficiently is key. That does not need to mean holding up traffic or taking forever to get to your destination.

For example, yesterday we drove a bit over 30 miles roundtrip on mountain roads, with plenty of ups and downs between 6100' elevation (home) and 4500' elevation (destination). Our speeds mostly ranged from 30 mph to 55 mph, and while we drove carefully, we never held anyone up. As it was a dry, sunny day with temperatures in the 40s most of the time, we didn't need climate control (and we don't have seat heaters). We had four battery temperature bars the whole drive, we started with about eight full bars of charge, and returned home with four full bars of charge. If we had charged to a full 80%, we probably could have done that drive twice, and still returned home with an okay margin.

One way to train yourself efficiency-wise is to keep an eye on the motor power shown on the Energy Info screen. Whenever you do not need to slow down or speed up, try to hold the accelerator pedal in a position that keeps the motor power at zero (sort of like coasting in neutral). Never let the motor power dip below zero (which means you are doing regenerative braking) unless you actually want to slow down. Otherwise, because regenerative braking can never be perfectly efficient, you are wasting energy. Try to accelerate smoothly with even power, not in a jerky manner. Whenever you do need to slow down, try to accomplish most of this by backing off of the accelerator in ECO mode and using the brake pedal as little as possible. If you can master those techniques, leave a bit more room in front of you, and anticipate upcoming traffic slowdowns as recommended by lpickup, you should notice an immediate, substantial improvement in efficiency and range.

I know my wife is checking the board and she'll give these a shot tomorrow. I'll show her how to get to the Energy screen. Just need to be careful not to get into an accident while looking at it

We'll report back as to how things go.

 

[charge]

First thing to know is how much charge you actually had at the end of her driving. The 9 mile estimate is not to be taken literally. I have seen 11 miles remaining with 4 bars of charge, or 1/3 (or more) of the battery remaining. I went over 20 miles from there and had three bars of charge and an higher estimation of distance left when I got home.

Do you live at the top of a hill? Going up steep grades uses a lot of energy, and giving "test" rides tends to do so as well. When you hit the accelerator and use 80KW of power in an instant, the computations of how much further you can drive go down quickly.

Think of the electric vehicle in terms of time of energy use, not miles able to be driven. You can drive the car many ways, and predicting how many miles you can go will be easy once you know where and how you are using your available charge.

So your wife has a 20 mile commute one way, and had the heater on. Since it was cold, she likely was pulling 3.5 KW for thirty to forty minutes each way, or about 7 KWH. Considering your battery has about 20KWH of usable energy, 1/3 was spent on heat, not driving. With it being a new car with a lot of pep in D mode, she likely enjoyed that aspect, using 20-80kw to take off from every stop. While it only takes a few seconds to get up to 35-45mph, that is energy that will not be regained through regen braking, since it tops off at 30KW.

In essence, your wife drove about an hour using around 12KWH average to get around, plus heater use (7KWH), leaving you with very little energy at the end of her commute. Likely one bar. While that sounds bad, there is a bit of padding so you likely had quite a bit of charge remaining, and if you drove on flat ground at 35 you could likely go 20 or more miles.

Have her look at the energy use screen to see where the energy is going. Hit the blue button on the lower right and then the green icon, energy information. The three usage meters will help her see exactly where she is using and regaining energy. If she wants to go further on a given day than work and back, she should drive more efficiently, and use the heater on defroster and feet mode, or drive in eco mode which limits how much power the heater will draw. I like to bundle up a bit more, and crank the heat hard for a few minutes when I get a bit chilled. 10 minutes of heater use set to 90 usually heats the cabin up pretty good, and will use less energy than leaving it on low constantly. I don't have a cold weather package so I don't know what that draws on the battery, or which gauge it will show up on.

Learning to use ECO, D or the brake to slow down can be learned by watching the big dial on this screen. I make it my default screen and glance at it - don't get distracted by watching it - but play with it and you will figure it out.

Does the Energy screen only show driving efficiency while driving or is there historical data. I looked in history but didn't see anything.

I am starting to see data for the first 2 days with the car in carwings. I recall a screen that shows where your energy is being used and rating on how efficient your driving is. Is carwings a good indicator of our driving efficiency?

 

[Caracalover]

Does the Energy screen only show driving efficiency while driving or is there historical data. I looked in history but didn't see anything.

I am starting to see data for the first 2 days with the car in carwings. I recall a screen that shows where your energy is being used and rating on how efficient your driving is. Is carwings a good indicator of our driving efficiency?

If you look at the screen you can see many things. The history can be reset, so if you want to do it on a daily basis you will get a data point to work from. I don't do this. I do like to reset the M/KW meter at the top of a hill and see how long I can keep it reading 99M/KW, but I live on the side of a mountain and only charge to 80%, so it is pretty easy to keep it there for miles. On my way home, if I reset at the bottom of the hill, 2.9M/KW is not uncommon.

Carwings is not very accurate as far as actual wall to wheel energy use, but as an indicator it has merit. With 12000 miles on my car, I don't look at carwings much, but it is interesting every now and again.

There are several ways to see how efficient you are driving. One is in the dash where your trip meter is, another is the online carwings, and the third is the LCD in the center of the car. If you want true accurate readings, you have to account for resistance while charging, which when using 120V is about three times more than at 240V, and not something any of these seem to do.

 

[keydiver]

Regarding 110 v. 240, I thought I read that others tried the pre-heat option with 110 and it worked - as long as the charge completes. Once the charge is done then pre-heat can begin without a drain on the battery. But maybe I misunderstood or didn't remember correctly.

I think it partially depends on whether you have the timer set for Charging Priority or Climate Control Priority, but either way at 120 volts the EVSE can only supply 1440 watts. I haven't used the heater much here in South Florida, but I *think* it draws at least that much. The 84 miles on the GOM makes me suspect she didn't actually have 100% when she left home. Someone in a colder climate needs to clarify this and I'll shut up now.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I would recommend either getting a 240V charging station installed or if you have a dryer outlet near enough to the car you can go with EVSEupgrade.com and have the 110V charging cable upgraded to 240V. On cold days, you can substantially improve the driving range by preheating the car for 30 minutes or more on 240V, enough to actually heat up the core of the car. Driving electric has caused me to rethink climate control. I now think of the climate control as a function that is to be used before getting in the car mostly, at least for winter time when the heater is needed (AC in the summer uses a fraction of the energy). by making the car nice and toasty, she can adjust the mode to foot/fog and use the on/off button to turn off the climate control (verify by seeing "climate control off" on the screen... it's good to verify that it's off every so often, as it is to easy to turn back on). By doing this you can easily eliminate the need for heating and thus have the climate control, including the fan, turned off, reducing the amount of cold air coming in from outside and the need to heat that cold air. conserving the heat to the interior goes a long way to extending range. For the trip home, she could try prewarming the cabin for say 15 minutes even though it's not plugged in and then turning off climate control until she needs to use it. I've found I use less overall energy if I get the car warm even on battery power, before I drive home and then eliminate or minimize the use of climate control if I have to use it. Again, the fan will increase the circulation of outside air to the inside and increase climate control use, at least that's what I'm finding. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you find you only need to charge to 80% to do do the commute. I'm back up to 80 + miles of usable range for a 100% charge in the winter time in the 20's and 30's and still quite comfortable with the above prodecure. If you need to, don't be afraid to charge to 80% the night before and top off in the morning with the prewarming timer to 100%. prewarming on 240V also charges the battery and raises the battery temperature (how much we don't know yet, but it seems to help the range) which appears to also help range.

practice hypermiling a bit, just so you know how to do it. Eco mode is your friend. have her learn how to break in a way that maximizes regeneration, gentle breaking, giving yourself more room with the cars in front and looking ahead to see lights before they turn red, increasing stopping distance if you can safely. gentle acceleration helps to. after a bit you both will get good at knowing how to maximize range so that you can do it when you have to and cut loose when you don't need to be so conservative.

 

[garygid]

21 + 4 + 21 + 9 = 55, add perhaps 8 miles in the Reserve => 63 ... sounds just about right for the conditions you describe.

The cold battery, preheating at 120v, using heating, some hills, a novice driver ... all take their toll.

Welcome to LEAF-land.

Do NOT watch the screens unless you can do so SAFELY. !!!!
(Braking, no breaking.)

Relax, drive less aggressively, enjoy the periods of quiet, and avoid the "longish" extra trips until you get more experience.

Nice trick, to worry her into "making" you take the LEAF! :lol:

 

[coqui]

I too was shocked on my very first trip. With about the same rt commute as you, the first trip I took "ate up" twice as many miles as I knew was my one way drive to work. Follow the steps below and your commute will more closely mirror your actual mileage; mine did:
- You absolutely MUST learn to drive efficiently. See abasile's post, very good info.
- Drive in Eco all the time.
- Charge at 240v. Spend the money and get a good Level 2. Admittedly I am not in CT, but I am getting a GOM reading of over 90 miles out of an 80% charge every morning.
- Use the seat heater and steering wheel heater a lot and use the climate control sparingly.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

based on your description she would probably burn off about 12-14 KW leaving her a guesstimate range of about 18-25 miles left when she returned. (oh forgot to add in side trips...)

so a single trip would be fine, but it will be a challenge to recharge at 120 volts in time for the next day's trip.

you need a 240 volt option.

 

[charge]

I would recommend either getting a 240V charging station installed or if you have a dryer outlet near enough to the car you can go with EVSEupgrade.com and have the 110V charging cable upgraded to 240V. On cold days, you can substantially improve the driving range by preheating the car for 30 minutes or more on 240V, enough to actually heat up the core of the car. Driving electric has caused me to rethink climate control. I now think of the climate control as a function that is to be used before getting in the car mostly, at least for winter time when the heater is needed (AC in the summer uses a fraction of the energy). by making the car nice and toasty, she can adjust the mode to foot/fog and use the on/off button to turn off the climate control (verify by seeing "climate control off" on the screen... it's good to verify that it's off every so often, as it is to easy to turn back on). By doing this you can easily eliminate the need for heating and thus have the climate control, including the fan, turned off, reducing the amount of cold air coming in from outside and the need to heat that cold air. conserving the heat to the interior goes a long way to extending range. For the trip home, she could try prewarming the cabin for say 15 minutes even though it's not plugged in and then turning off climate control until she needs to use it. I've found I use less overall energy if I get the car warm even on battery power, before I drive home and then eliminate or minimize the use of climate control if I have to use it. Again, the fan will increase the circulation of outside air to the inside and increase climate control use, at least that's what I'm finding. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you find you only need to charge to 80% to do do the commute. I'm back up to 80 + miles of usable range for a 100% charge in the winter time in the 20's and 30's and still quite comfortable with the above prodecure. If you need to, don't be afraid to charge to 80% the night before and top off in the morning with the prewarming timer to 100%. prewarming on 240V also charges the battery and raises the battery temperature (how much we don't know yet, but it seems to help the range) which appears to also help range.

practice hypermiling a bit, just so you know how to do it. Eco mode is your friend. have her learn how to break in a way that maximizes regeneration, gentle breaking, giving yourself more room with the cars in front and looking ahead to see lights before they turn red, increasing stopping distance if you can safely. gentle acceleration helps to. after a bit you both will get good at knowing how to maximize range so that you can do it when you have to and cut loose when you don't need to be so conservative.

Thanks to George and all who shared their knowledge!

OK, here's the update. I think I can stop hyperventalating and start hyper-miling now

Yesterday my wife drove the exact same route. No demo trip during lunch. She returned home with 35 miles showing on the GOM. I believe SOC as about 45-50%.

Here's what changed:
- drove in ECO mode most of the time. There were times (going up hill) where she found it better to get out of ECO
- no or very little climate control. Used heated steering wheel and seat
- temp was way above normal. We were in the low to mid 50's
- modified driving technique

I tried to pre-heat but I don't think I'm doing it correctly. I tried this morning but carwings seems to be down. I went to the car and turned on the climate control with car still plugged in (charging was complete). I left it on for a while, but the cabin didn't seem to get much warmer even though the temp was set to 79 degrees. Will have to investigage that tonight

I hear the suggestions about the 240 charging option. I will definitely get one. A little short on cash this month with the new car purchase. I'm hoping to save a little and get one in a few months. I have read about the upgrade option, but my wife has the option to do 110 charging at work. The plan is to have the 240 @ home (probably Schneider from Homedepot) and 110 at work when needed. There's times when she goes to one of the kid's sports events that would be out of range. We're hoping that charging at work will allow her to get there and home.

Once we have this setup we plan on only charging to 80% most of the time unless we have a longer trip.

Finally, my wife followed many of the suggestions provided here. Gave her enough confidence to try again yesterday (although she did bring the 110 charger with just in case). Unfortunately I did not get to drive it. . Maybe this weekend...

 

[keydiver]

Great! Carwings is having issues, which is why you couldn't remotely preheat. But, I'm not sure what you meant by this:

- drove in ECO mode most of the time. There were times (going up hill) where she found it better to get out of ECO

Going up hills shouldn't be any different in ECO vs Drive. The same amount of power is available, you just need to press further on the gas pedal.