Changing the minds of peers on week 1

[cwerdna]

Priuses and Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive hybrids and others w/similar design (e.g. Ford hybrids) have no alternator, no starter and the motors/generators are integrated into the transaxle (power split device).

The alternator & starter are essentially electric motors. The Prius replaced them with.... electric motors (two). So no simplication there. ----- The transaxle is a planetary gear set just like you find in any automatic car. So no simplication there either. ----- Then they added a battery plus DC/DC charger, which is located in the backseat. A standard gasoline car has no electronics located in its backseat. So overall: Yes the Prius is slightly more complicated with extra equipment.

Yes on the first part re: two electric motors, but conventional ICEVs don't have those two electric motors integrated into their transaxle and they don't participate in propelling the vehicle. MG1 performs does more than just start the ICE.

The power split device does contain a planetary gearset but it contains no shift solenoids, bands, internal clutches, tiny fluid passages that automatics have nor a torque converter.

The DC to DC converter inside the inverter assembly, under the hood (not in the back) has no moving parts and performs the function an alternator would but the ICE doesn't need to be running for it to work.

2010+ Priuses and Toyota hybrids w/new designs introduced January 09 and later also have no belt driven accessories and no drive belt. But yes, I agree that the Prius and HSD hybrids are overall somewhat more complex. http://autoshop101.com/autoshop15.html#Hybrid" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has some more info but all of it was written prior to the Gen 3 Prius (introduced in January 09 as a 2010 model year car).

 

[P71VIC]

I'm another Michigan LEAF owner. I live out on the edge of the country, shop in the Ann Arbor area, and work in the Detroit area (a little mix of everything). It means I cover a lot of area in my limited range electric car, but it also means it leaves a lot of room for me to be an equal opportunity offender.

The UAW workers are frustrated because I'm passing them in a foreign car.
The conservatives are puzzled because there's a green car with gun stickers on the back window.
The liberals are equally confused and pissed that THEIR symbol is being used to promote such offensive barbarism.
And I'm confused because I bought a subsidized car, I'm a libertarian, and my last car wasn't a Prius, but a V8 sedan!

The thing people can't seem to understand is why I would want to go from an unlimited range Ford Crown Victoria to a limited range Nissan LEAF. They can't get over that range issue. They don't seem to understand how plugging in is actually more convenient than filling up. But the one thing that gets them thinking is when I say this:

To drive my Crown Vic to and from work every day costs me $400/mo.
To drive the LEAF costs me $40/mo.
In one month, I'm spending almost 1/2 what I would spend on a tank of gas.
The LEAF payment is $325/mo.
So I'm getting a brand new car PLUS electricity to get me to/from work for less than what it cost to just fill up a used cop car without cruise control, without remote start, without heated seats, without heated steering wheel, without XM, without SatNav, without bluetooth, etc...

It really gets people thinking when I mention how much gas sucks, because that's one thing everyone can agree upon.

Also, having them take it for a test drive in the parking lot is an eye opener. A lot of these people have never experienced the sensation of being propelled without explosions happening under the hood.

Ok brother, I am you, but in Maryland.
Crown Vic driving, libertarian oriented Republican. I've even run for office as a Republican in the past.

 

[theaveng]

I would have kept the Crown Victoria. One of these days you will want to drive farther than 80 miles. In that instance you could leave the Leaf plugged-in and drive the gasser.

So overall: Yes the Prius is slightly more complicated with extra equipment.

But yes, I agree that the Prius and HSD hybrids are overall somewhat more complex.

Why debate then? I already said that.

 

[theaveng]

I spun the Leaf's tires during my testdrive.
Ooops.
Anybody (like a certain person's boss) who says the car cannot accelerate does not know what they speak of.

 

[teichholtz]

When I had my Smartcar I was walking to it in a parking lot. A pickup truck with two big burly guys pulled in a couple of spaces from my car, the guy on the passenger side got out and gesturing toward my Smart said 'Who the f*ck buys a car like that'? I piped up "I did". He looked a bit surprised, and I said, 'Come on, I'll show you the car. He walked over, I told him about the Tridon Safety cage, pointed out a few features, and my favorite, have the person sit behind the wheel and then stand in front and lean into the windshield and say 'Hello". Freaks them out. And I always tell them to check out the youtube video of the Smart going into the cement barrier at 70 MPH.

At the end of the tour his comment was 'Dude, this is a f**king cool car!" Total time elapsed from 'idiot' to 'cool'? About three minutes.

 

[P71VIC]

I would have kept the Crown Victoria. One of these days you will want to drive farther than 80 miles. In that instance you could leave the Leaf plugged-in and drive the gasser.

So overall: Yes the Prius is slightly more complicated with extra equipment.

But yes, I agree that the Prius and HSD hybrids are overall somewhat more complex.

Why debate then? I already said that.

Acknowledged. I'll trade with my wife and take her CRV on those days.

I didn't want to keep the insurance and maintenance liability of a third car for the house hold. Plus the Vic had taken on some damage right before I traded it for the Leaf down payment.

 

[theaveng]

I have three cars. The third only costs $5 extra/month for insurance.

have the person sit behind the wheel and then stand in front and lean into the windshield and say 'Hello". Freaks them out.

Well no wonder. Act like a freak and people will freak out. Why on earth would you do something like that? I don't understand how that is supposed to sell a person that EVs are good

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

$5 a month? nice. i am getting screwed by mine. time to call GEICO. been putting it off way too long

 

[theaveng]

I tried GIECO but their quote was higher than my existing provider (Nationwide). The Geico agent admitted they can't beat nationwide. The key is to not insure the car which dramatically lowers the price. (Of course that also means if I wreck the car, it won't be repaired, but I have three cars so I don't care.)

 

[TomT]

It depends on what your definition of acceleration is... To 60, the Leaf takes about 10 seconds which is, frankly, slow. To 20, it is much faster, relatively. BTW, it is not to hard to spin the wheels of a FWD car, even those of an econobox, particularly if you are not in a straight line and on even traction...

I spun the Leaf's tires during my testdrive.
Anybody (like a certain person's boss) who says the car cannot accelerate does not know what they speak of.

 

[BraveLittleToaster]

It depends on what your definition of acceleration is... To 60, the Leaf takes about 10 seconds which is, frankly, slow.

When someone says that a car can't accelerate onto the freeway, they're usually referring to the sign next to the freeway that says "vehicles incapable of X MPH are prohibited beyond this point".

My dad used to own a 1975 Datsun 710 that had a top speed of 80 MPH. Our Leaf beats that by 10MPH, so whatever.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It depends on what your definition of acceleration is... To 60, the Leaf takes about 10 seconds which is, frankly, slow.

When someone says that a car can't accelerate onto the freeway, they're usually referring to the sign next to the freeway that says "vehicles incapable of X MPH are prohibited beyond this point".

My dad used to own a 1975 Datsun 710 that had a top speed of 80 MPH. Our Leaf beats that by 10MPH, so whatever.

somewhere I read that the average time to enter a freeway was 20 seconds so sounds like 10 seconds is plenty

 

[LUXMAN]

The one question I get that is difficult to answer is about Battery Degredation. I am almost at a loss as for what to say. Because that is a real potential negative (hence my lease). I know some people hear have said they have had none in 2 years, but there is also those who have had some and the addition battery warrenty.

I am a cheerleader for the leaf and explain all the benefits when asked. but when come to that, I explain that there is some loss but also explain the warrenty.

In fact a guy from work yesterday asked me "dont you have to replace the batteries at 8 years?"
I explained that they are warrentied for 8, but if you take care of them (80%, etc) they may still be viable.

 

[cwerdna]

The one question I get that is difficult to answer is about Battery Degredation. I am almost at a loss as for what to say. Because that is a real potential negative (hence my lease). I know some people hear have said they have had none in 2 years, but there is also those who have had some and the addition battery warrenty.

Battery degradation depends on many factors such as temperature, how high a SoC you leave it in, how you drive, etc.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11863&p=273943#p273943" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is an ideal climate and has some degradation (not sure how many capacity bars he lost, if any) whereas some Phoenicians lost 3 or 4 capacity bars in the middle of their 2nd summer w/MUCH lower mileage. Clearly, the temperature was very bad for the latter.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; contains the almost 2 hour town hall meeting in Phoenix. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10257" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; was from months earlier where Andy Palmer explains factors that can affect rate of degradation and many other things.

I'm sure you know Phoenix is hot and it's likely hotter than your area. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=215907#p215907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is an example of some temps posted by a Priuschatter Facebook friend of mine who I've met in person (and spoken to for quite a long time).

If Nissan didn't add the capacity warranty, I highly doubt the original pack in a Leaf residing in Dallas would have 80% capacity at 8 years, unless the car was in an air conditioned environment the whole time it was parked.

 

[LUXMAN]

Thanks for the links.

By 80%, I meant charge to 80% for longer life tho, not 80% after 8 years

 

[theaveng]

Nissan says the battery will drop a low as 70% capacity in its first 3 years, and then hold that value indefinitely. I guess that's normal routine for Li-Ion chemistry.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Nissan says the battery will drop a low as 70% capacity in its first 3 years, and then hold that value indefinitely. I guess that's normal routine for Li-Ion chemistry.

why are we posting things "we" do not believe?

 

[LUXMAN]

why are we posting things "we" do not believe?

Being the newbie here, I am trying to figure out what the consensus is on range. In particular,what will it be 2,4,6 years down the road.
I love the EV, else I wouldn't have gotten rid of my ICE and leased a leaf, but I want to know what the staying power of the Li Ion batteries will be. Will this be a passing fad or will we have batteries that can stand the tests of time and not pose a recycling nightmare, or will there be a viable and economical reconditioning process?

LUXMAN

 

[theaveng]

Nissan says the battery will drop a low as 70% capacity in its first 3 years, and then hold that value indefinitely. I guess that's normal routine for Li-Ion chemistry.

why are we posting things "we" do not believe?

Um.... I've seen the Nissan documents posted to this forum. They expected the battery would lose 20-30% of its capacity early on, and then hold at that value. (Also I never said "we" in my original post.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So U R Saying That The Batteries Will Never Go Belo 30% Degradation?

Well I Said "We" Because I Thought U Were Joking.. Sorry I Misunderstood Something Here.
I Will Say that If It Were True, That Would Explain Nissans Battery Warranty.
Obtw: Android Saw Fit To Upgrade My OS And I S
Am Still Working On Figuring It Out Which Explains Wby Every Letter After The Spacebar Is Capitalized.