Detailed Question on Condo EV Charger Install / CA Law

[mymontreal]

I live in a pretty new condo complex in San Jose - I have a deeded parking space in a condo parking structure that holds about 150 cars and have been struggling to find an EV charger install option that (a) would not be prohibitively expensive and (b) would be acceptable to the HOA board.

I would like to install a level II (220v) charger, but as with many parking structures, we don't even have any 110v outlets close to any of the parking spaces.

I have been getting info/quotes from a couple of installation companies and I seem to have 2 options:

[1] Tap into the power conduits that carry power from the parking structure meter rooms directly to individual condos (so would be metered) - these conduits actually run fairly close to my parking space - the challenge is that this would require installation of a new breaker panel box and the EV charger on the wall by my parking space - HOA do not appear to be agreeable to this because (a) they believe the breaker panel box would be "unsightly" and (b) they say that we cannot tap into the "power conduit" that is going from the meter room to my condo, because that power conduit is HOA property rather than my property...

[2] In the parking structure meter room - there do appear to be several spare/unused breakers - we could possibly connect to one of these and run conduit/cable to my parking space - however, this would be an "un-metered" supply and the HOA will not allow this, even if I pay them an agreed amount every month - I am currently looking into the possibility of a "sub-meter", but am not sure whether PG&E currently allow sub-meters to be installed...

The biggest challenge I see at the moment, is that even though CA law allows condo owners to install EV chargers, there are a few caveats and nobody has really laid down any practical guidelines for doing so.

For example, the law appears to state the following with regards to EV charger installs in exclusive-use condo parking spaces:

"Prohibitions are not acceptable. Any language in governing documents effectively prohibiting or restricting installation or use of electric charging station is void or unenforceable; except that:

Reasonable restrictions are allowed. These are restrictions that do not significantly increase the cost or significantly decrease efficiency or performance; but just remember that the State promotes the stations and courts determine what is "reasonable" (so be reasonable!).

All permitting requirements and health and safety standards apply and all building codes apply. An "Electric vehicle charging station" has to be designed to comply with the California Building Standards Code. The charging station may include several charge points simultaneously connecting several electric vehicles to the station and any related equipment needed to facilitate charging plug-in electric vehicles."

Well that's great, but who determines the definition of "reasonable restrictions" and "significant cost increase"... ?

Has anybody successfully challenged an HOA refusal to allow install and do we have any data/test cases yet around how the courts are likely to interpret "REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS"... ?

Would love to hear from anybody who has experience (particularly in the SF Bay Area) of EV charger install in a condo parking space.

Thanks
Mike

 

[Boourns]

Do you have the citation to the code you quoted? It would be a phrase like "California Vehicle Code" followed by a section symbol (looks like a funky capital S) and a number.

 

[mymontreal]

Do you have the citation to the code you quoted? It would be a phrase like "California Vehicle Code" followed by a section symbol (looks like a funky capital S) and a number.

This is covered by California Civil Code § 1353.9 - Electric Vehicle Charging Stations

 

[davewill]

... courts determine what is "reasonable" (so be reasonable!).
...
Well that's great, but who determines the definition of "reasonable restrictions" and "significant cost increase"... ?

You posted the answer above your question. You'd have to sue to get the court to define it. To my way of thinking, having an electric panel installed next to other electric panels doesn't really qualify as "unsightly" to me. That sounds more like a blanket prohibition. If they won't see it your way, the next step is having an attorney write them a letter saying that you consider your proposal reasonable, and if they don't agree you would be forced to take action.

 

[walterbays]

I suggest your best option would be to "go big" if your HOA Board has enough vision. The aim is to serve all current and future condo owners thereby raising property values for all, and you're selflessly willing to be the first test case to work it out. Talk to NRG to get your HOA included among the multi-family sites where they do the "make ready" work to facilitate later installation of charging equipment by NRG or by others. Paid for by the California settlement that part, the biggest part, wouldn't cost you or the HOA anything. And NRG *might* be searching for suitable locations to meet their required number of installations. With the Board select a location for a fair number of potential EV charging spaces, with reasonable proximity to electrical supply and not in the most desirable parking spaces. It may be a longer walk for you to your home. The HOA changes your assigned parking space to one of the ready spaces, and you install your own EVSE, meter, and locking mechanism to reserve it for your exclusive use.

If the HOA thinks bigger, they might decide to own the EVSE's, funded in part by a special assessment on homeowners requesting a charging space, like you. They could have a single utility meter, and charge the usage to homeowners and even visitors through EVSE charging systems like those of EVgo, Chargepoint, or Blink.

If the Board lacks vision I'd "go small." Find one or more feasible parking spaces, reasonably close to electricity supply, reasonably close to your home, and not currently assigned to overly combative neighbors. Ask those neighbors if they might be willing to swap spaces with you, ask the Board to approve, and wire the space for your EVSE.

 

[Boourns]

This is an interesting statute. I think 1353.9(f) is your ticket. Notice (f)(1) says that "the association shall approve" your charging station if you agree to (f)(1)(A)-(D) in writing (the bold is mine):

(f) If the electric vehicle charging station is to be placed in a common area or an exclusive use common area, as designated in the common interest development's declaration, the following provisions apply:
(1) The owner first shall obtain approval from the association to install the electric vehicle charging station and the association shall approve the installation if the owner agrees in writing to do all of the following:
(A) Comply with the association's architectural standards for the installation of the charging station.
(B) Engage a licensed contractor to install the charging station.
(C) Within 14 days of approval, provide a certificate of insurance that names the association as an additional insured under the owner' s insurance policy in the amount set forth in paragraph (3).
(D) Pay for the electricity usage associated with the charging station.

Let me ask you one more question: Are there prohibitions in your HOA rules/bylaws that keep you from installing the charger, or just the HOA board saying no? The entire section seems to be written with the idea that the thing prohibiting you from installing a charger is a provision of the HOA rules.

If it's an HOA rule that is in your way, I think this statute voids the provision on the reasonable language you found. This restriction clearly significantly decreases the charging station's performance in that it reduces it to zero. There doesn't appear to be any case law that deals with this statute. If it's the board just telling you no, I think (f) is the way to go. Put that stuff in writing and when they continue to deny it, you can either (1) have a lawyer write them a letter and take them to court if necessary, or (2) if you are feeling a little more combative, install the charging station in compliance with (f) and let them sue you.

It sounds like what is happening is a combination of both. They are just telling you "no" but that is based on some "unsightly" standard in the bylaws. (The part about it being on HOA property is bullshit, in my opinion. The purpose of the HOA is to serve the homeowners, so it shouldn't matter that it's on HOA property. So too, probably, is the parking garage, and they have no problem letting people park on it.)

If this were legal advice, I would say go ahead and comply with (f) (and state in your letter agreeing to do what's required in (f)(A)-(D) that you are specifically complying that provision) and see what happens. If that doesn't work then you could get a lawyer to write a quick letter to them.

 

[Kataphn]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12295&hilit=HOA&start=10

Here is my post in another thread on this issue. Scroll to my post on April 21. Another owner (the board president) has a Volt and put in an EVSE by his space recently so now there are 2 of us in the complex who have done this.

 

[SanDust]

If you have an HOA board that is willing to work with you this would be easy. I'm getting the sense that this is not the case.

I'd write a letter notifying them that you are installing the EVSE per 1353.9(f) and that, per statute, they will approve the installation. (Completely agree with Boourns that this is your ticket). Just use the language of the statute for each of the requirements. Then discuss the two options and give them a choice. Using your line seems like the simplest and cleanest solution. Their idea that this is HOA property seems odd to me. It's probably not their property exactly. In any event, the most they could claim would be common exclusive use property, and the statue says you can use this.

I would call and explain the statute before sending the letter, just so they'll have a heads up and so you can soften the letter.

Scroll to my post on April 21. Another owner (the board president) has a Volt and put in an EVSE by his space recently so now there are 2 of us in the complex who have done this.

Having the board president want an EVSE would eliminate all kinds of issues.

 

[hill]

... courts determine what is "reasonable" (so be reasonable!).
...
Well that's great, but who determines the definition of "reasonable restrictions" and "significant cost increase"... ?

a "reasonable" argument (if you need to / willing to go to court) would be that which has been established in PV solar cases. There, it was determined to be unreasonable to force owners to diminish capacity by more than 20%, or add to the expense my more than 20%. So if it comes to 'unsightly' or 'expense' ... that would be a good place to start.

.

 

[mymontreal]

This is an interesting statute. I think 1353.9(f) is your ticket. Notice (f)(1) says that "the association shall approve" your charging station if you agree to (f)(1)(A)-(D) in writing (the bold is mine):

(f) If the electric vehicle charging station is to be placed in a common area or an exclusive use common area, as designated in the common interest development's declaration, the following provisions apply:
(1) The owner first shall obtain approval from the association to install the electric vehicle charging station and the association shall approve the installation if the owner agrees in writing to do all of the following:
(A) Comply with the association's architectural standards for the installation of the charging station.
(B) Engage a licensed contractor to install the charging station.
(C) Within 14 days of approval, provide a certificate of insurance that names the association as an additional insured under the owner' s insurance policy in the amount set forth in paragraph (3).
(D) Pay for the electricity usage associated with the charging station.

Let me ask you one more question: Are there prohibitions in your HOA rules/bylaws that keep you from installing the charger, or just the HOA board saying no? The entire section seems to be written with the idea that the thing prohibiting you from installing a charger is a provision of the HOA rules.

If it's an HOA rule that is in your way, I think this statute voids the provision on the reasonable language you found. This restriction clearly significantly decreases the charging station's performance in that it reduces it to zero. There doesn't appear to be any case law that deals with this statute. If it's the board just telling you no, I think (f) is the way to go. Put that stuff in writing and when they continue to deny it, you can either (1) have a lawyer write them a letter and take them to court if necessary, or (2) if you are feeling a little more combative, install the charging station in compliance with (f) and let them sue you.

It sounds like what is happening is a combination of both. They are just telling you "no" but that is based on some "unsightly" standard in the bylaws. (The part about it being on HOA property is bullshit, in my opinion. The purpose of the HOA is to serve the homeowners, so it shouldn't matter that it's on HOA property. So too, probably, is the parking garage, and they have no problem letting people park on it.)

If this were legal advice, I would say go ahead and comply with (f) (and state in your letter agreeing to do what's required in (f)(A)-(D) that you are specifically complying that provision) and see what happens. If that doesn't work then you could get a lawyer to write a quick letter to them.

Thanks everybody for the great feedback - I no longer feel like I am trying to fight this alone...

I absolutely agree that 1353.9 (f)(1)(A)-(D) is the way to go , so let me just clarify where I am at this stage:

- I have not yet formally submitted my proposal in writing - I wanted to first of all discuss offline with several HOA board members to get some initial feedback.

- The feedback they gave me was that they would not approve option (1) because having a new breaker-panel installed on the wall by my parking space would not comply with the "Architectural Standards" of the complex... (unfortunately installing this new breaker-panel in the meter room, is not an option - there just isn't any free space).

- Option (2) MIGHT be acceptable to the board, but only if it was possible to install a "sub-meter" against the un-metered HOA supply, so that they could charge me accurately for all power used - Unfortunately, both EV installers who have come out for a site visit so far have mentioned that Sub-metering is not allowed in CA...

Here are the next steps:

- On Tues, I have another visit from an Electrical Installation company - I'm hoping that they can find some way to attach a "sub-meter" to the HOA un-metered supply in the meter room (option 2).

- I then plan to submit option (1) and option (2) written proposals to the board - based on the collective advice above, I will clarify that I am following all the requirements of 1353.9 and I therefore expect them to approve one of the two options asap.

I realize that I am breaking new ground here, but the HOA really needs to embrace this... what is a little frustrating is that despite living in the CA Bay Area, I have had great problems finding ANY EV Charger Install companies who have experience doing installations in condo complexes - in fact most of them are not even aware of the law in CA that supports condo owners...

 

[Spies]

I realize that I am breaking new ground here, but the HOA really needs to embrace this... what is a little frustrating is that despite living in the CA Bay Area, I have had great problems finding ANY EV Charger Install companies who have experience doing installations in condo complexes - in fact most of them are not even aware of the law in CA that supports condo owners...

Have you read this thread?
Dual EVSE Install - Blink Success Story

Just my opinion but I would try avoiding option 2 as best I could and perhaps only going that route once option 1 is completely exhausted. Being on the hook to pay the HOA for power and installing a second meter in order to be billed for that power sounds like trouble to me and very costly. Who would set the rate for that power? The HOA? Also don't forget that option 1 depending on who provides you power should also allow you to get the more cost effective EV power rate.

 

[Kataphn]

I highly recommend contacting electrician William Korthof who did both installations at our condo complex. His company is Sustainable Solutions Partners. His website is http://www.sustainsp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 800-524-2970. The company is based in Pomona. He has an office in San Francisco as well.
It was because of him that our installations were able to happen. Despite willingness on the part of our board, barriers had to be overcome with DWP and the LA city Dept. of Building and Safety. William was able to do this. He has done many condo EVSE installations. At the least, he could hopefully provide you with advice.

 

[mymontreal]

I realize that I am breaking new ground here, but the HOA really needs to embrace this... what is a little frustrating is that despite living in the CA Bay Area, I have had great problems finding ANY EV Charger Install companies who have experience doing installations in condo complexes - in fact most of them are not even aware of the law in CA that supports condo owners...

Have you read this thread?
Dual EVSE Install - Blink Success Story

Just my opinion but I would try avoiding option 2 as best I could and perhaps only going that route once option 1 is completely exhausted. Being on the hook to pay the HOA for power and installing a second meter in order to be billed for that power sounds like trouble to me and very costly. Who would set the rate for that power? The HOA? Also don't forget that option 1 depending on who provides you power should also allow you to get the more cost effective EV power rate.

That's a great Blink success story - those EV charger units look very nicely installed - I will reach out to them this week.

I have uploaded a few photos of my parking structure and meter room layout, in case anyone would like to view them (there are individual descriptions to clarify most of the photos:

http://flickr.com/gp/35939484@N02/t55n8K/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Two quick Questions:

(a) If I went with Option(1) I have been told that a new breaker panel (2 feet x 1 foot) would have to be installed on the wall near my parking space - I don't see anything like this in the "Blink success story" photos ? Maybe because they had additional room in the meter room to install one (we have no room) ?

(b) If you look at the meter room photos, you will see a whole bank of smartmeters -one for each condo. I have been told that there is no way to connect to them, which is why they suggested tapping into the power conduit above my parking space space & installing a new breaker panel ?

 

[mymontreal]

I highly recommend contacting electrician William Korthof who did both installations at our condo complex. His company is Sustainable Solutions Partners. His website is http://www.sustainsp.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 800-524-2970. The company is based in Pomona. He has an office in San Francisco as well.
It was because of him that our installations were able to happen. Despite willingness on the part of our board, barriers had to be overcome with DWP and the LA city Dept. of Building and Safety. William was able to do this. He has done many condo EVSE installations. At the least, he could hopefully provide you with advice.

Thanks Kataphn - I will also try to contact William during the week - at least see if he can offer any advice.

 

[EricsOwnLeaf]

Hello all! This is my first post, but I needed to address the OP: You are definitely not alone! I live in Connecticut, and unfortunately my condo association is only capable of small thinking. After granting me permission in February, getting quotes from a licensed electrician and contractor (who is on the board), they then went and rescinded said permission in June, after I purchased a Leviton 30 amp EVSE. The reason? The car "poses a life-threatening hazard". Needless to say, I got a lawyer, who did send a letter, to which the board has yet to respond. They are more interested in a letter from the electrician in regards to "kids getting electrocuted if they touch the car or charging station". Yes. I'm serious. I'm trying to gather all the information I can for one more push, and if they deny me again, well, it's litigation time!

Trust me, I know exactly what you're going through. Good luck, and if you need any help, let me know.

 

[mymontreal]

Hello all! This is my first post, but I needed to address the OP: You are definitely not alone! I live in Connecticut, and unfortunately my condo association is only capable of small thinking. After granting me permission in February, getting quotes from a licensed electrician and contractor (who is on the board), they then went and rescinded said permission in June, after I purchased a Leviton 30 amp EVSE. The reason? The car "poses a life-threatening hazard". Needless to say, I got a lawyer, who did send a letter, to which the board has yet to respond. They are more interested in a letter from the electrician in regards to "kids getting electrocuted if they touch the car or charging station". Yes. I'm serious. I'm trying to gather all the information I can for one more push, and if they deny me again, well, it's litigation time!

Trust me, I know exactly what you're going through. Good luck, and if you need any help, let me know.

Thanks Eric - wow that must have been very painful having already purchased the Leviton charger...

Oh yeah, I can just see the Electrician being really eager to write a letter, guaranteeing that nobody will ever get an electric shock from the charger or the car...

- I think that if anybody ever received an electric shock from touching the car, then the CAR MANUFACTURER would be top of the list in terms of responsibility

- Also, in terms of the charger, this is why we have "Liability Insurance" - hopefully your condo insurance policy includes Liability coverage - typically this is $500,000 but I know that in CA at least, you can increase this to $1M coverage, for a pretty small additional premium. In CA, you are required to have $1M coverage and name the HOA as an "additional insured" when you install an EV charger in a condo parking garage - even if Connecticut does not require this, maybe you could pro-actively offer this to your HOA board to put their minds at rest from a liability perspective ? My Insurance broker has told me that it will only cost an additional $35 per year, to increase my liability coverage from $500K to $1M.

Good luck!

 

[Boourns]

I think that if anybody ever received an electric shock from touching the car, then the CAR MANUFACTURER would be top of the list in terms of responsibility

Definitely true. If that kind of freak accident occurred the injured person might be able to sue the apartment complex, in theory, but he would really be gunning for Nissan. First and foremost simply because there is way more money there to recover. Not that this argument will help you much with your HOA.

 

[mymontreal]

I think that if anybody ever received an electric shock from touching the car, then the CAR MANUFACTURER would be top of the list in terms of responsibility

Definitely true. If that kind of freak accident occurred the injured person might be able to sue the apartment complex, in theory, but he would really be gunning for Nissan. First and foremost simply because there is way more money there to recover. Not that this argument will help you much with your HOA.

Or maybe that's just my system to prevent my car from being stolen...

 

[Boourns]

:lol: There's a thought. If you put a sign on your Leaf that said "DANGER! ELECTRIC VEHICLE. HIGH VOLTAGE. DO NOT TOUCH!" how many people would actually believe it?

 

[mymontreal]

I realize that I am breaking new ground here, but the HOA really needs to embrace this... what is a little frustrating is that despite living in the CA Bay Area, I have had great problems finding ANY EV Charger Install companies who have experience doing installations in condo complexes - in fact most of them are not even aware of the law in CA that supports condo owners...

Have you read this thread?
Dual EVSE Install - Blink Success Story

Just my opinion but I would try avoiding option 2 as best I could and perhaps only going that route once option 1 is completely exhausted. Being on the hook to pay the HOA for power and installing a second meter in order to be billed for that power sounds like trouble to me and very costly. Who would set the rate for that power? The HOA? Also don't forget that option 1 depending on who provides you power should also allow you to get the more cost effective EV power rate.

So it continues to be a fun week...

I had a new Electrical Installation company come out this week to give me an alternate quote for the EV install - we were looking at Option 1 i.e.. tapping into the condo power conduits that run across the ceiling in the parking garage (these then continue up to the individual condo units).

I just had a call back from them and they say that unfortunately, they are unable to provide a quote - they say that because the main panel in the meter room is rated at 100A, there would be issues with the sub-panel upstairs given that my condo has an electric oven an electric dryer...

Maybe they are correct, as I don't know much about this...

Thoughts ?