Detroit 3 are in serious trouble...

[thankyouOB]

Last month, Ford sold more F-150's by noon of the first day of the month than Nissan sold Leafs for the entire month. Heck, they sold more F-150's in 6 days than all Leafs sold the entire year.

If this continues (which I think it will), Nissan is going to have to retool that Tennessee factory for something else because there's no way they're going to need to build 20,000 Leafs per month. Heck, they won't need to build more than 12,000 per year.

The reality is, EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

you say versions of this all over MNL.com.
do you own one?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Last month, Ford sold more F-150's by noon of the first day of the month than Nissan sold Leafs for the entire month. Heck, they sold more F-150's in 6 days than all Leafs sold the entire year.

If this continues (which I think it will), Nissan is going to have to retool that Tennessee factory for something else because there's no way they're going to need to build 20,000 Leafs per month. Heck, they won't need to build more than 12,000 per year.

The reality is, EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

The above is why I think these guys have a chance. Like the video of using the builtin battery for welding, grinding, etc.

http://www.viamotors.com/videos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wow, just watched the clip on VIA Motors Extended Range Electric Fleet Truck... I love the quote about the generator being powerful enough to run power tools off or, even the whole job site. a great watch!

 

[cwerdna]

Last month, Ford sold more F-150's by noon of the first day of the month than Nissan sold Leafs for the entire month. Heck, they sold more F-150's in 6 days than all Leafs sold the entire year.
...
The reality is, EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

you say versions of this all over MNL.com.
do you own one?

I agree they w/his last statement that "EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come." Just look at hybrids. They've been on sale in the US for >11 years and they're still a tiny niche, unfortunately, per http://www.hybridcars.com/news/november-2011-dashboard-rebound-continues-33361.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (waiting for December 2011 verson), the hybrid take-rate was 2.63% with 26K hybrids sold up that month out of 991K vehicles.

For comparison, Toyota sold 17,004 Priuses in the US last month. That's 75% more than all the Leafs sold in the US in 2011.

I don't see much evidence that somehow EVs will gain much traction to even go beyond hybrid take-rates in the next say... 5 years. Even after 10 years, it seems unlikely unless we have some major spike in oil prices or another oil crisis (resembling those in the 70s, or worse).

For those who think EVs won't be a niche for years to come, what are your projections as a percentage of US vehicle sales and by what years? Why? For the optimists, is it because electricity is cheap in your state (e.g. WA)? It's not so good in CA.

 

[gasmiser1]

http://www.viamotors.com/videos/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

--------------------------------------------------
IMHO-

$79,000 for the eRET (extended range electric truck) is way too expensive for it to be a hit.

 

[richard]

For comparison, Toyota sold 17,004 Priuses in the US last month. That's 75% more than all the Leafs sold in the US in 2011.

Seriously? You're comparing a vehicle that Toyota has spent more than 11 years promoting with a first year model.

The Prius came out in 2000, and Toyota sold 5,562 units that year. That was not a complete year, so let's use the next year's figure. 15,556 units sold in 2001. That's in the same ballpark as the LEAF's first year.

 

[cwerdna]

For comparison, Toyota sold 17,004 Priuses in the US last month. That's 75% more than all the Leafs sold in the US in 2011.

Seriously? You're comparing a vehicle that Toyota has spent more than 11 years promoting with a first year model.

The Prius came out in 2000, and Toyota sold 5,562 units that year. That was not a complete year, so let's use the next year's figure. 15,556 units sold in 2001. That's in the same ballpark as the LEAF's first year.

For 2000, deliveries of the Prius began in August 2000. Back then, there were no tax credits (like the $7500 credit on the Leaf) for hybrids, but rather a lame $2000 deduction.

Back in those periods of 2000, gasoline prices averaged ~$1.50/gal (http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=EMM_EPMR_PTE_NUS_DPG&f=W" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. In 2001, the averages hit a high of $1.71/gal. By December 2001, the average wasn't even $1.10.

 

[scottf200]

http://www.viamotors.com/videos/
We build electric versions of your favorite trucks, vans and SUVs.

IMHO-$79,000 for the eRET (extended range electric truck) is way too expensive for it to be a hit.

Check out "Press Conference with PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric) at Plug In 2010"
These are 1/2 ton 7,500lb payload utility vehicles initially.
PG&E thinks over the useful life and maint that they still work out.
2013 they are looking for more retail customers.
Also how much is a stand alone mobile generator?

http://www.viamotors.com/pdfs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Estimated VTRUX Draft Specs
All Electric Range - 40 miles
Combined Range - 300 miles
Drive 2WD or 4WD
Traction Motor Power - 300kW peak / 175kW continuous
Traction Motor Torque 400NM peak / 210NM continuous
Generator Power 158kW peak / 112kW continuous
Power Export Inverter Up to 15 kW
Power Export Voltage 110 & 220 VAC 60 Hz
Lithium Ion Batteries - ~27 kWh
Battery Voltage - 640 Volt

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

The ROI of a pure EV like the Leaf will be many times greater than a Prius. Hybrids shine not in fuel economy but in air quality and while that is compelling to me, it's a harder sell to joe public. The Leaf is many times more economical to drive than a Prius, something like the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gas and stands to pay for itself in gas savings over it's lifetime... and that's not including the savings in maintenance. once people really figure this out and once there is a decent DC QC network, EV's are likely to become much more popular than hybrids. I have no actual projections to throw out, the factors influencing when the transition will occur (price of oil/gas, politics etc) are so unpredictable it's very hard to give anything but a wild ass guess. refining and selling gas is one of the most lucrative businesses on the planet and we can be sure that those with a lot to lose are doing everything they can to slow down the transition away from gas.

Last month, Ford sold more F-150's by noon of the first day of the month than Nissan sold Leafs for the entire month. Heck, they sold more F-150's in 6 days than all Leafs sold the entire year.
...
The reality is, EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

you say versions of this all over MNL.com.
do you own one?

I agree they w/his last statement that "EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come." Just look at hybrids. They've been on sale in the US for >11 years and they're still a tiny niche, unfortunately, per http://www.hybridcars.com/news/november-2011-dashboard-rebound-continues-33361.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (waiting for December 2011 verson), the hybrid take-rate was 2.63% with 26K hybrids sold up that month out of 991K vehicles.

For comparison, Toyota sold 17,004 Priuses in the US last month. That's 75% more than all the Leafs sold in the US in 2011.

I don't see much evidence that somehow EVs will gain much traction to even go beyond hybrid take-rates in the next say... 5 years. Even after 10 years, it seems unlikely unless we have some major spike in oil prices or another oil crisis (resembling those in the 70s, or worse).

For those who think EVs won't be a niche for years to come, what are your projections as a percentage of US vehicle sales and by what years? Why? For the optimists, is it because electricity is cheap in your state (e.g. WA)? It's not so good in CA.

 

[Train]

We are set to get some 60 CHAdeMo chargers installed in the next couple of months in the Seattle Metro area. I predict this will radically change the forecast for EV's once people start using the
Quick chargers and relaxing about cold whether range loss. Even in the worst whether with the Climate control blasting, EV's are many times more efficient and cost effective than any other vehicle type on the road today. With over 10,000 miles on our car for less than $300 in electricity, it's just a matter of time till the next wave surges forward. Until there is an EV F-150, we just won't be able to make a fair comparison with the gas version... it's going to take a while before there is a comparable EV for every gas type vehicle out there today.

And what if someone is using that charge station as you roll up? How is that convenient? If someone is in front of you at the petrol station, you wait just a few minutes. Is someone going to wait a half hour...and then ANOTHER half hour to charge?

There's nothing quick about quick chargers. And it doesn't matter how many charge stations there are. To the average consumer, as someone mentioned, $30+ for an electric car will be the deal killer right there.

Do you really think someone who goes 65 mph on the freeway with several grade changes is going to pull over every 50 miles and say "Let's charge again! Gee, this Leaf is so efficient!" How is that going to square with efficiency in their mind? Are they going to be thinking about cost effectiveness when their two kids are in the back and you have to wait yet another 30 minutes to go every 50 miles? How is that efficient? How does this make anything but a negative statement about electric vehicles?

I've heard it said over and over again how you can stop to shop or eat when it's charging. How does that save you money? You just spent the money you thought you saved on a movie, clothes, sit down meals, Starbucks or whatever. I know don't need to eat every 50 miles.

The fact is, people's time is worth more than that.

There is NO comparable EV to any type of gas car because fuel efficent four door sedans can be had for $20,000 or a little more. That have a 300-400 mile range. That take only a few minutes to fill for another 300-400 miles. And EV's that have anywhere near the range of a petrol vehicle will cost what, $80,000? Is that Tesla S going to get 200 miles per charge going 70 mph?

We know Leafs can be sold to enthusiasts. But the idea that Joe or Joanne Cardriver will take the numerous down sides of an EV (very limited range, long charge times, high MSRP, decreasing battery life, additional money for a 220V home station, battery replacement cost, and at this point a mediocre heating system in winter that further reduces range) just so they don't have to put petrol in the car anymore strains credulity.

Electric cars may indeed be part of the future someday. Right now, to the average consumer, hybrids make far more sense and are much more practical.

 

[cwerdna]

The fact is, people's time is worth more than that.

There is NO comparable EV to any type of gas car because fuel efficent four door sedans can be had for $20,000 or a little more. That have a 300-400 mile range. That take only a few minutes to fill for another 300-400 miles. And EV's that have anywhere near the range of a petrol vehicle will cost what, $80,000? Is that Tesla S going to get 200 miles per charge going 70 mph?

FWIW, at the BayLeaf meeting w/the Kadota-san and senior Nissan folks, on the topic of the GOM, range anxiety, lack of L3 infrastructure in the US, it was brought up at the Altima Hybrid has a range of ~700 miles and can be refueled in 7 minutes.

Agreed about your scenarios. At the moment, given current battery capacities for the price, charge times and gas prices, about the only folks who are willing to take their EV on long road trips and tolerate having to stop to charge up are the hardcore EV enthusiasts. The majority of Joe Public wouldn't put up with that. They'd take their ICEV and possibly not buy an EV if it means they need to keep an ICEV for the long trips.

Also, the technology averse folks might not buy one either. The Leaf would be PERFECT for my mom's driving needs. She never drives far, she's afraid of driving on the highway anyway and my dad has an ICEV that could be used instead. But, both my parents are horrible w/technology (mom barely can check the voice mail on her cell phone, parents think digital cameras are "complicated", mom can't retrieve SMS messages if someone texts her, etc.) and that pretty much rules out an EV for them. She doesn't need a new car anyway as her <4 year old Altima Hybrid is holding up fine and has few miles.

People who aren't car enthusiasts likely have a lot of myths in EVs in their head (just like there are a ton floating around for hybrids) might dismiss EVs. After 3 days of accompanying a non-car enthusiast female friend car shopping, who needed a new car, she bought a new '11 Prius. She even asked me questions about plugging the Prius in (you can't, on the non-PiP). She also knew next to nothing about the Leaf (was way out of her budget anyway) and nothing about the PiP. She has a BSEE and a MBA from a top 25 business school. I wouldn't consider her to be a technology enthusiast though.

The ROI of a pure EV like the Leaf will be many times greater than a Prius. Hybrids shine not in fuel economy but in air quality and while that is compelling to me, it's a harder sell to joe public. The Leaf is many times more economical to drive than a Prius, something like the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gas and stands to pay for itself in gas savings over it's lifetime... and that's not including the savings in maintenance.

When purely looking at "fueling costs", it's cheaper for you (and others in the Puget Sound Area) because electricity is dirt cheap w/Seattle City Light (I lived there for about a year) and pretty cheap w/Puget Sound Energy (lived in the Eastside for >7 years).

See my post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155508#p155508" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the reply that followed. PG&E is a fricking ripoff vs. Seattle City Light or PSE. Compare my rates vs. yours per kwh.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

We are set to get some 60 CHAdeMo chargers installed in the next couple of months in the Seattle Metro area. I predict this will radically change the forecast for EV's once people start using the
Quick chargers and relaxing about cold whether range loss. Even in the worst whether with the Climate control blasting, EV's are many times more efficient and cost effective than any other vehicle type on the road today. With over 10,000 miles on our car for less than $300 in electricity, it's just a matter of time till the next wave surges forward. Until there is an EV F-150, we just won't be able to make a fair comparison with the gas version... it's going to take a while before there is a comparable EV for every gas type vehicle out there today.

And what if someone is using that charge station as you roll up? How is that convenient? If someone is in front of you at the petrol station, you wait just a few minutes. Is someone going to wait a half hour...and then ANOTHER half hour to charge?

There's nothing quick about quick chargers. And it doesn't matter how many charge stations there are. To the average consumer, as someone mentioned, $30+ for an electric car will be the deal killer right there.

Do you really think someone who goes 65 mph on the freeway with several grade changes is going to pull over every 50 miles and say "Let's charge again! Gee, this Leaf is so efficient!" How is that going to square with efficiency in their mind? Are they going to be thinking about cost effectiveness when their two kids are in the back and you have to wait yet another 30 minutes to go every 50 miles? How is that efficient? How does this make anything but a negative statement about electric vehicles?

I've heard it said over and over again how you can stop to shop or eat when it's charging. How does that save you money? You just spent the money you thought you saved on a movie, clothes, sit down meals, Starbucks or whatever. I know don't need to eat every 50 miles.

The fact is, people's time is worth more than that.

There is NO comparable EV to any type of gas car because fuel efficent four door sedans can be had for $20,000 or a little more. That have a 300-400 mile range. That take only a few minutes to fill for another 300-400 miles. And EV's that have anywhere near the range of a petrol vehicle will cost what, $80,000? Is that Tesla S going to get 200 miles per charge going 70 mph?

We know Leafs can be sold to enthusiasts. But the idea that Joe or Joanne Cardriver will take the numerous down sides of an EV (very limited range, long charge times, high MSRP, decreasing battery life, additional money for a 220V home station, battery replacement cost, and at this point a mediocre heating system in winter that further reduces range) just so they don't have to put petrol in the car anymore strains credulity.

Electric cars may indeed be part of the future someday. Right now, to the average consumer, hybrids make far more sense and are much more practical.

what you are describing is what i do....5-8 times a year. longer 150+ mile trips.

iow; you state the drawbacks of a certain scenario and i doubt that anyone will dispute that. you think anyone would be a bit crazy to take a trip that requires multiple QC stops and do you think that anyone here disputes that?

because i have not seen anyone dispute it, but you keep talking like someone is.

i venture to say that most trips involving QC will probably involve 2 charges. once getting there then once to get home with the time spent at the destination in between. so that might be "every 50 miles" but if buffered with a 2-3 hour stop in between, ya ! i would definitely be stopping somewhere for 20-SIXTY minutes anyway. i have a 4 YO. trust me, he is needy on a time frame MUCH SHORTER than my Leaf's neediness.

besides; i have a Prius. i would not go to Salem (anther common destination for me) on the EV Highway in a Leaf even if the QC time was 10 minutes. but that is me.

said it several times; the Leaf is the best 2nd car option out there right now that is used as a first choice option. PERIOD. my "2nd" First Car is a Prius which is what get dusted off and driven when we need to burn more than a few gallons

 

[lpickup]

Electric cars may indeed be part of the future someday. Right now, to the average consumer, hybrids make far more sense and are much more practical.

Well, the scenarios you listed do resonate somewhat. I completely agree with you that it doesn't make any sense if there is one QC in a given area and there is a line to use it, it's not very effective. Even for a 200+ mile trip I just can't see having to QC every hour or so.

But let's get back to your statement about the "average consumer". Are these kinds of usage scenarios "average"? I can really only speak for myself and people I know and have discussed their travel patterns with. In my area practically everyone I've talked to would have no trouble at all using a LEAF for their daily commuting needs, and that doesn't include having a charging station at work (which a growing number are starting to have access to).

There are 1 or 2 people I know of that have a 50 mile one-way trip to work, so without a charging station at work, a LEAF wouldn't work for them. Some other scenarios that wouldn't work for the LEAF that I've talked to:

- A friend who has 4 kids that really needs a 6 passenger vehicle
- My mother who only has one car and occasionally (even VERY occasionally) needs to make a longer trip
- My in-laws who live WAY out in the country in far northern NY (read, extremely cold in the winter with no garage to keep the vehicle warm in) with no charging infrastructure whatsoever--they frequently drive 35-50 miles one way just to go to the store or doctor

So yes, there are people I know that would not be a good candidate for an EV. But the vast majority could, once they get past the hurdle of thinking about the EV like they do a gas vehicle where you drive it until the tank reads 1/8th full and then pull into the nearest gas station to fill up and that process should be quick and convenient. Before being widely accepted, we have an enormous job of educating people of what their true energy needs are if they assume they can start each day with a full "tank". I do truly believe that if I look out on the roads that a SIGNIFICANT (but not all) number of those cars could easily be replaced with EVs. I only consider EVs to be niche in the sense that people are not going to realize that they could get by with an EV and not be willing to commit to them.

 

[Jagular]

EVs are in the early adopter phase. Geoffrey Moore's book, Crossing the Chasm, talks about technology adoption curves, and the chasm is the jump between early adopters and progressive adopters (not sure of the exact phase Moore calls this but it is a much faster adoption as the technology becomes a safer bet). So, on a bell curve, there's a quick early adoption with a large chasm between early and progressive. There are a lot of technologies that never make it across the chasm and electric cars and the technologists providing support for them probably won't make it, unfortunately. I would argue that hybrids have crossed the chasm (virtually every large auto manufacturer has a hybrid strategy) and hybrids are a safe bet now. It's too early to tell with EVs.

 

[edatoakrun]

The reality is, EV's will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

Voice of "reality", circa 1903, below.

The reality is, automobiles will remain a niche vehicle for years to come.

They are expensive, can't be driven on the current rough roads, and how are you going to get fuel for them, once you are outside of major cities?

I can hitch up my team, and cross the entire United States! There are livery stables and blacksmiths in every town, on my route.

Yes, it will be a few years before BEVs are widely recognized as the superior vehicles that they already are today, and before mass production brings down prices to the same level as inferior ICEV technologies.

But only a few years, IMO.

 

[cwerdna]

I figured I'd add it here instead of starting a new thread...

Global auto execs don't see electric cars making big inroads for at least a decade:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/05/global-auto-execs-dont-see-electric-cars-making-big-inroads-for/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In polling 200 C-level executives in the global automotive industry for the 2012 automotive survey, KPMG found that nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of executives don't expect electrified vehicles (meaning all e-vehicles, from full hybrids to FCEVs) to exceed 15 percent of global annual auto sales before 2025. Executives in the U.S. and Western Europe expect even less adoption, projecting e-vehicles will only account for 6-10 percent of global annual auto sales.

 

[tps]

nearly two-thirds (65 percent) of executives don't expect electrified vehicles (meaning all e-vehicles, from full hybrids to FCEVs) to exceed 15 percent of global annual auto sales before 2025. Executives in the U.S. and Western Europe expect even less adoption, projecting e-vehicles will only account for 6-10 percent of global annual auto sales.

That's still a lot of cars! Enough to be monetarily worth someones time to make them.

If the naysayers were ultimately right, as was pointed out in a post above, we'd all still be driving around with horses and wagons. Those who deny change are basically denying reality. Things will change over time. What we can't easily predict is exactly how or when that change will occur. Carlos Ghosn famously said "We must predict the future and prepare for it. If it comes, we'll be ready."

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

it all depends on how gas prices go. i personally think China alone will be doing more than 10 million EVs annually by 2020

 

[Train]

In my area practically everyone I've talked to would have no trouble at all using a LEAF for their daily commuting needs, and that doesn't include having a charging station at work (which a growing number are starting to have access to).

Indeed, I agree with this. For a commuter car, the Leaf and other EV's can be a good choice if one has another petrol vehicle.

Yes, it will be a few years before BEVs are widely recognized as the superior vehicles that they already are today, and before mass production brings down prices to the same level as inferior ICEV technologies.

But only a few years, IMO.

Superior? In what way? They don't have a superior range than a petrol powered vehicle. They aren't cheaper; in fact, they are quite expensive. Total cost of ownership is unknown right now but it would take years to recover the initial higher cost of a BEV. Long term, let's say 10 years and 120,000 miles, what do we have? Depending on electrical rates and pump prices, EV's may come out on top.

But that petrol car can still be driven with the same range it had when it was new. Aside from some spark plug, coolant, some fluid and filter changes, it will go for another 80,000 miles. The BEV is going to require a replacement battery. At what cost? $10,000? $8000? $6000? Certainly enough to lose any savings by using electricity as opposed to petrol.

At this point in time, they aren't superior vehicles. They do some things well and other things not so well. The reason they are niche vehicles is because their mission is limited.

Again, what the future holds is anyone's guess. It may or may not be EV's. If natural gas, hydrogen and other technologies develop, and if they prove to be more cost effective, practical, and the choice of the consumer, then that's where the market will go.

But for now, convincing the average consumer to spend an extra $10,000 for a car that has 1/4 the driving range is a tough sell.

The "reality" is that they will have a limited role for years to come. It doesn't matter how many "quick" charging stations they install on freeways, most people's time is worth more than sitting a half hour waiting for their car to charge to go only 50 more miles. Range has been the bugaboo of EV's before and it will continue to be its glaring weakness. They are accepted for what they are but they are not superior. Not right now. Not by a long shot.

 

[FairwoodRed]

They aren't cheaper; in fact, they are quite expensive. Total cost of ownership is unknown right now but it would take years to recover the initial higher cost of a BEV.

Let me argue against your “quite expensive” idea. I got rid of a Mazda6 to get my Leaf. The payment on the Mazda was $240 and the fuel was $450 per month. My payment on the Leaf (zero down, without tax credit) is $505 and the fuel costs me $60 per month. How is $565 for the Leaf more expensive than $690 for the Mazda? I could care less how long it takes to recover the initial costs because I’m paying less money every month. I say every month because it was the 90’s since I didn’t have a car payment, so monthly cost is the only thing that matters to me.

Range has been the bugaboo of EV's before and it will continue to be its glaring weakness. They are accepted for what they are but they are not superior. Not right now. Not by a long shot.

If you think that range is the defining advantage of an ICE, with no offsetting disadvantage, then I suggest that you drive a Tanker Truck. With 13,000 gallons on board, your range is far superior to any Sedan on the road today. Of course that Tanker Truck will cost you a lot more per mile too. In the range equation, the only part that matters is do I have enough range for today’s driving needs. I really don’t need 600 mile range, or even 300 mile – I have a truck for what the Leaf isn’t appropriate for, and it sits all the time. So why would I pay the higher per mile cost of an ICE for range I don’t need?

Any car can be shown to be superior to any other, just by changing the individual owner’s circumstances. I accept Nissan’s word that 70% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day and that 60% have a second car. Assuming no overlap, that still leaves 100 million people that have circumstances where an EV could be superior as a second car for daily driving. Superior because it is cheaper per mile.

 

[wcanl]

...with Ford's EV out, it is getting panned. Nissan will have to bring out the Infinity EV soon. We know Tesla's plan for the S and upcoming X. Nissan is showing the guts to make a serious beachhead in the EV market. They have sold more EV cars in 2011 than all others--ever (someone quoted that here on MNL).

Tesla is showing their hand in superior design, the safest car, highest mileage battery, new sleek plug that looks better than all the other "committee" designed plugs.

GM Volt is a joke, plug in Prius, is a similar joke--get a Corolla instead for better economics. Everyone else is late to the game or buying parts from others.

If Nissan and Tesla quickly capitalize on their head start, meet in the middle on pricing, they will own the market. Tesla is building their own quick charging network near highways. We Leafers will be the ones buying converters from our Chadmo's and 1772 plugs to Tesla's connector.

I do worry that the dealer told me to only quick charge the Leaf once per day. That means a 200 mile range per day and Las Vegas and San Diego are still out of the question for me. The upcoming Infinity EV better have a better range battery.

Except that the Ford F-series and Silverado sold almost a million units combined in 2011 in US (hey Cwerdna, it's me cycledrum, Prius not a niche, it's mainstream). Did Leaf sell 10k this year? Not to bash, just keeping it real. And Prius family sold at 135k one of which I bought.

Last I checked in Jan '11, Tesla had lost $ 450 mill since starting out in '03. I hope they make it, they are here in Bay Area, but they'll have to make money someday.