DFW Metroplex

[adric22]

I live in the McKinney area, and would love to know if this is or is not the forum for my N.Dallas/Texas geog. area. I will go where I am supposed to.

Well, I'm currently setting up a new website called www.dfwgreencars.com unfortunately it is not quite finished yet.. I'm still having a little trouble with the forum accepting new registrations. This will be more than just a website. I'm planning to have a huge get-together in June or July for all of the DF/W area to bring their green cars.. So expect to see a lot of Prius, Honda CR-Z, Insight, Chevy Volt, Nissan Leaf, smart cars, etc. Not 100% sure on the location yet because I'm not sure if the original place I was going to do this will be able to handle the volume of attendees. I'm going to be doing some advertising, so I am hoping for potentially hundreds of people to show up.

By the way - since the forum isn't working yet, if anyone wants to get in on the initial planning of this get-together, send me a private email at [email protected]

 

[jwhitehouse]

... If TPMS alerts were an issue why wouldn't Nissan either / or put it at the factory or mention it in the owners manual. I suggested to the Nissan CSR that I thought RAQ should be drive out cost not a subtotal of the car price. Has anyone that has air in their tires had the TPMS alert in their Leafs?

I'm stuck on this nitrogen thing. I see hundreds of vehicles a day, and I've seen them with and without nitrogen filled tires. With the nitrogen in the tires, there is a significant reduction in the number of times I'll jump in a vehicle (on a cold morning) and see the TPMS warning light on. It may be that the machine puts a drier gas back in the tires, and the lack of moisture reduces the fluctuations in tire pressure due to expansion, or it may be the nitrogen. What I'll tell you for sure is that it is effective. The TPMS sensors work the same, and it's a good thing to know when your tire pressure is low, but if the system is more efficient and effective with its early warning, I know I pay more attention when I see the light come on.

The second point to the RAQ, the quote is not a drive-out price, but it should be accurate for what it is. You shouldn't expect any additional costs for equipment, services, or options that you didn't order (that's what the nitrogen is), unless you want the product. You should expect an explanation of other expenses incurred. Nissan says the quoted pricing does not include destination and handling fees, sales tax, title, and license fees, or the cost of a home charging station. Your dealer should be able to give you a breakdown of those charges, but some will vary depending on the structure of the financing.

 

[shay]

... If TPMS alerts were an issue why wouldn't Nissan either / or put it at the factory or mention it in the owners manual. I suggested to the Nissan CSR that I thought RAQ should be drive out cost not a subtotal of the car price. Has anyone that has air in their tires had the TPMS alert in their Leafs?

I'm stuck on this nitrogen thing. I see hundreds of vehicles a day, and I've seen them with and without nitrogen filled tires. With the nitrogen in the tires, there is a significant reduction in the number of times I'll jump in a vehicle (on a cold morning) and see the TPMS warning light on. It may be that the machine puts a drier gas back in the tires, and the lack of moisture reduces the fluctuations in tire pressure due to expansion, or it may be the nitrogen. What I'll tell you for sure is that it is effective. The TPMS sensors work the same, and it's a good thing to know when your tire pressure is low, but if the system is more efficient and effective with its early warning, I know I pay more attention when I see the light come on.

The second point to the RAQ, the quote is not a drive-out price, but it should be accurate for what it is. You shouldn't expect any additional costs for equipment, services, or options that you didn't order (that's what the nitrogen is), unless you want the product. You should expect an explanation of other expenses incurred. Nissan says the quoted pricing does not include destination and handling fees, sales tax, title, and license fees, or the cost of a home charging station. Your dealer should be able to give you a breakdown of those charges, but some will vary depending on the structure of the financing.

I am not sure if you are wanting me to respond or not. I was not arguing if nitrogen had merit. My frustration was the nitrogen was not presented as option. It phrased to indicate that was required (by Nissan) and upon me declining it, I was told it would have to be approved by Nissan. I find this dishonest if not outwardly unethical.

To your second point, I realize the quote from the RAQ process is exclusive of TTL and destination. I was suggesting an approach that IMHO opinion would better. I would normally negotiate a car on drive out price. With the Leaf, you get a quote that is car plus factory and port installed options for whatever the best price you can get is. Then you have this unknown delivery charge that could be set to anything since it is not covered as part of the quote. Then the dealer can add option(s) which is what I felt was being done here without my permission. If the RAQ process was for drive out price, then this could have been avoided.

 

[davewill]

I am not sure if you are wanting me to respond or not. I was not arguing if nitrogen had merit. My frustration was the nitrogen was not presented as option. It phrased to indicate that was required (by Nissan) and upon me declining it, I was told it would have to be approved by Nissan. I find this dishonest if not outwardly unethical.

Is this your first car purchase or something? I have yet to find a car salesman that won't say or do almost ANYTHING to pad a deal. Anyway, I'll say it as clearly as I can...it's a SCAM. Nissan doesn't require it. If you find you want it later, you'll undoubtedly be able to find it cheaper. In the immortal words of Nancy Reagan, "Just say no".

 

[shay]

I am not sure if you are wanting me to respond or not. I was not arguing if nitrogen had merit. My frustration was the nitrogen was not presented as option. It phrased to indicate that was required (by Nissan) and upon me declining it, I was told it would have to be approved by Nissan. I find this dishonest if not outwardly unethical.

Is this your first car purchase or something? I have yet to find a car salesman that won't say or do almost ANYTHING to pad a deal. Anyway, I'll say it as clearly as I can...it's a SCAM. Nissan doesn't require it. If you find you want it later, you'll undoubtedly be able to find it cheaper. In the immortal words of Nancy Reagan, "Just say no".

Nope. I do agree with a it's a scam. I thought that from the second I saw the numbers.

 

[jhm614]

Is this your first car purchase or something? I have yet to find a car salesman that won't say or do almost ANYTHING to pad a deal. Anyway, I'll say it as clearly as I can...it's a SCAM. Nissan doesn't require it. If you find you want it later, you'll undoubtedly be able to find it cheaper. In the immortal words of Nancy Reagan, "Just say no".

I've got to say that my salesguy went the other way -- he said "we've done this, this and this (and one of "thises" was nitrogen)" but we won't charge you for any of it because we didn't ask you about it first. All I could say was "Thanks." It was literally a 30 second conversation.

 

[Pipcecil]

@senordaley I thought I would repost my last information on eVgo and your options on choosing an EVSE:

Nissan AeroVironment + Installation: Standard total cost is $2,200 (a $100 home assessment is required). Both the unit and installation are covered for 3 years and repairs are done onsite. This is the "official" offical charger and installation. EVSE is only a standard one, no wireless communication, etc. EVSE is hardwired into breaker box. Comes with a 30% tax credit on unit and installation (~$660)

Nissan AeroVironment + local installation: Unit cost is $1,000. My local electrictian quoted $300 installation. Unit is covered for 3 years maitenence, but for unit repair it must be mailed to AV (no local repair). EVSE is basic, no wireless, tracking, etc. Tax credit of ~$390.

ECOtality Blink Charger + local "installation": Unit cost is $1,500. EVSE plugs into wall via a 220 "Dryer" socket outlet. Installation cost for the addition of the socket in garage was quoted at $300. Unit is covered warranty for 1 year. EVSE is full wireless and utility link-up with usage data, utility smart grid, etc. Tax credit of ~$540.

Coulumb & Leviton EVSE: The only other UL certified home EVSEs (Leviton has other chargers that are not UL certified). At the time of my research both were unavailable for order. This could change. I ignored all other EVSEs that were not UL certified.

eVgo: uses AV's charger (offical Nissan charger). Version is the full wireless and utility link-up, smart grid, etc. (similar to Blink). Plans are a per month pay and start off as $50 for EVSE only, $80 for EVSE and access to public chargers (level 2 and level 3 DC quick chargers), $90 for EVSE, public EVSE, and electricity paid to charge vehicle. Home assessment is free. No tax credit is available with eVgo. $90 dollar plan is only compatible if you use Reliant, TXU, Green Mountain Energy, and Direct Energy (HILCO co-op is currently in the works). Electricity payment is only good during "off-peak" hours defined as 8pm-Noon (next day) and all weekend. EVSE is set to default charge only during these times (can manually override it via web/on unit). Plans including the public charging network ($80 and $90) will not be charged the monthly part of their bill ($30) until 70 chargers have been installed (estimated ~August 2011), so the plans would be $50 and $60 respectively. Warranty and maintence of device and installation is for life (i.e. you are paying, you get warrant and maintenence) on site. After the three year contract is up, there are a few options you can continue with:

1) Continue on current plan - we have determined is a pretty bad idea as the price of the EVSE over the life of the vehicle (10 years) is $6,000
2) Request a new plan with current charger - no current info on these plans. Will there be a reduced rate for those that have "paid" on the EVSE for 3 years?
3) Request a new plan with new charger - assuming its probably going to be the same monthly rate or more. I don't know what can happen for an EVSE that is so awesome that I want an upgrade in 3 years...but there is no telling (induction charging?)
4) Request to purchase current charger at fair market value and discontinue eVgo service - who knows that FMV will be? Consideration for current payment into the EVSE? Can't "own" and keep service
5) Terminate eVgo contract and EVSE is removed from home.

As for the eVgo plans, for 36 months, the EVSE is paid @$1,750 the public infrastructure @$1,080 and the electricity @$360. It really depends how much your electricity cost and your usage (especially if you have access to a charger at work) and how much you would use the public charging system. At a 2/3 battery usage per day with some weekend driving, my cost for electricity (on HILCO w/ fees, etc.) turned out to be ~$50 per month (all estimated, no car yet)

So there are all your options for an EVSE. eVgo is still planning to implement their level 3 CHAdeMO chargers throughout the metroplex, but you will have to be appart of their plan to utilize them. Its up to you to determine if the cost is worth it (for my wife and I it was).

In response to the car cost, I don't know about everyone else, but when I received my quote from the dealership, my destination charge was included in the price. The only cost not included was TT&L.

In response to the Nitrogen in the tires, (minus the dealership saying its required), its actually a chemistry lesson. Firstly, oxygen in its natural state (O2) is a smaller molecule than natural nitrogen (N2). This has alot to do with the electron density in the cloud, the slightly higher positive charge of the O2 molecule, etc. (I can explain it more but it would bore most people). Anyways, because rubber is a permable material (if you own a bicycle you see this in action faster than with a car tire), the oxygen, a smaller molecule, leaks out at a greater rate than nitrogen. (Average loss is ~1.5 psi for air a month versus ~1.5 psi for pure nitrogen in 6 months). Both oxygen and nitrogen behave similarly with heat expantion, but water molecules do not. Water expands in size when heated and contracts when cooled, which can varry your psi of your tires, especially in hot weather or fast driving (such as racing). This variablity becomes greater with more wild swings in temperatures. In addition, with Air, you have free oxygen floating around and free hydrogen (in H2) floating around. Both are nicely reactive to each other in a enclosed, pressurized space and will readily form H2O, creating more water vapor in your tires. Pure nitrogen won't react with free floating Hyrdogen very easily and it definetely won't make water or water vapor, which is the cause of the problem. As you can imagine, using any other heavier gas will work too (like Xenon or something), but nitrogen is easy to pull by itself out of normal air.

So, nitrogen provides a more consistant psi pressure both in retention and in temperature fluxuation. But, air still works just as well. I use air for all my tires and never have problems. Yes I bring out the air pump more often and watch tire pressure as temperature changes, but thats part of the gig.

 

[jwhitehouse]

I am not sure if you are wanting me to respond or not. I was not arguing if nitrogen had merit. My frustration was the nitrogen was not presented as option. It phrased to indicate that was required (by Nissan) and upon me declining it, I was told it would have to be approved by Nissan. I find this dishonest if not outwardly unethical.

To your second point, I realize the quote from the RAQ process is exclusive of TTL and destination. I was suggesting an approach that IMHO opinion would better. I would normally negotiate a car on drive out price. With the Leaf, you get a quote that is car plus factory and port installed options for whatever the best price you can get is. Then you have this unknown delivery charge that could be set to anything since it is not covered as part of the quote. Then the dealer can add option(s) which is what I felt was being done here without my permission. If the RAQ process was for drive out price, then this could have been avoided.

Just so everyone who might read this knows...I think it's wrong to tell someone a product is one price, and then charge them a higher price when they come to buy it. In the automobile business, I think it's wrong to lead someone to believe a vehicle is one price, and not tell a potential buyer that added equipment is not included in that price. Nitrogen in your tires is not a scam, but you don't need it. THANK-YOU "Pipcecil" for a well-put scientific explanation.

If you have any questions about the cost involved in a LEAF purchase, the answers should be at your local Nissan dealership (or this forum ). Since vehicle acqusition cost will differ between States, Counties, and Muncipalities, the local dealer should be the best source of pricing information to get you an "out-the-door" figure.

 

[SierraQ]

So, nitrogen provides a more consistant psi pressure both in retention and in temperature fluxuation. But, air still works just as well. I use air for all my tires and never have problems. Yes I bring out the air pump more often and watch tire pressure as temperature changes, but thats part of the gig.

Our current car (don't have a Leaf yet) has TPMS and in DFW the past two winters the system went off because the pressure dropped from normal 30-32 PSI to 26-28. It did this pretty much every morning until I spent ten minutes adding a few extra PSI. In the spring I let it back out as the pressure had gotten up to 36-38 due to heat.

So if that sounds like an egregious amount of work then by all means get nitrogen. I view it as a waste of money... for a car. However, you guys have me thinking about our mountain bikes which are terrible at losing PSI every month by 10 PSI or more and that is with new tubes. (Of course now that I have a compressor airing things up is no longer a mini-workaround with the hand-pump. )

You know, this got me thinking about people w/o an air pump. Right now you go to gas station, fill up, and receive complimentary air for the tires for buying fuel. With the Leaf you will go to the gas station, attempt to explain to the attendant that you can't possibly fill up, and... what will happen? :lol:

 

[SierraQ]

So far I've seen exactly ONE Leaf owner in DFW. I assume there are more hiding in the suburbs or somewhere. I was just curious what kind of range current owners are getting specifically in DFW traffic--especially highways, HOV lanes, etc. using A/C and/or heater. I don't need detailed breakdowns--plenty of other topics have those. But I really need to know what real-world experience is in DFW. Our commute is 70 miles so I have a little range anxiety considering most of it is HOV-highway and Texas likes to broil its inhabitants every summer so A/C is not optional.

Are you getting 80 miles out of 100 in rush hour on a slow freeway? 70 with the A/C cranked on a fast freeway? 25 because you got stuck in 60MPH headwind in last night's tornadoes??? That's what I'm after...

 

[senordaley]

Hey Pipcecil: Can you offer us any feedback on the following home chargers?
I found this site and have been reading over their offerings.

http://www.gogreensolar.com/collections/ev-chargers/price:2000:2500

they have a variety of charge/no charge units, and primarily I would want
to know if there is any significant benefit to the 50A v. 30A units on this
particular page. If you wander around their site, you can see all of their
units, most of which we would not use in a garage. But, there are more
out there!

 

[dallasleaf]

I joined the elite group of Leaf-ians by getting an orphan Leaf on April 2, 2011. Was looking for something else at Bankston Nissan in Dallas and stumbled on this car that had been refused. I have another electric car, a 1999 VW Golf conversion that I have been driving for about two years.
I thought I had posted up on this DFW forum, but I think it was the Texas forum that I put up my info.
I am a member of NTEAA, North Texas Electric Auto Assoc. Regardless of what you may have heard we are an advocacy group promoting alternative vehicles and have been involved with the North Texas Council of Governments to help create the infrastructure for charging stations zoning and permitting.
Our members live all around the North Texas area.
Most of our meetings are around promoting those business that believe in what we are doing, driving clean electric cars.
Enough about that for now! My wife and I have put over 2500 miles on the Leaf since we got it. Most has been in town, with some mixed highway driving. We are in East Dallas and we have driven to Arlington and back on the highway, returned with 25 miles left on the gauge. I made a trip to Euless and back with about 30 miles left on the gauge.
My wife likes to drive in Eco mode, I prefer the standard drive mode. I think it makes her feel comfortable to see the higher number that the Eco mode gives you. Having driven an EV for some time, I have a feel for the way to drive without putting too much strain on the battery. My VW has a range of about 50 miles fully charged.
Love the car, love the way it drives. I would say a real in town average is 80-90 miles. On the freeway 70+ miles. The AC does not really effect mileage that much. You are only running a 12V fan and compressor. The heat is going to be the big juice robbing function.
Of course we are all learning the possibilities of these cars. The best part has been only buying 2 tanks of gas for our SUV in two months! I drive the VW daily to work and my wife does all of her driving in the Leaf. I think she is averaging about 200+ mile a week with kids in school and her small business. I do about 150 miles a week in the VW.
We had the EVGO charge station installed. We did not get the option of the cheap charger since we did not order a car. It seemed the easiest route, and I do know we will have to do something else after 3 years, but we will see. I do like the fact that starting in June we will be able to log in to see our exact charge usage and be able to really tell what it is costing us. I know the Blink stations have a similar function on their charge stations. This also gives us the upgrade option of utilizing the charge stations going up around the area.
Well, I look forward to the discussions yet to come.

 

[Pipcecil]

@senordaley - Looking at their specs, currently the two main offerings seem pretty standard. A couple of things, firstly, they aren't UL listed. For me, thats a complete deal breaker. The tech is all too new without making sure its certified to comply with all the current EVSE standards, but that is not to say the units are bad in any way, just be aware there can be a risk invovled.

As you can tell, the 30A vs. 50A obviously charges faster, but thats not the only limit. Your internal car charger in the Leaf is set at 3.3kw would will be your biggest bottle neck. Granted if this is ever upgraded or your get another EV that can utilize a greater kw pull (like the ford focus EV) you could see more benefit. Although, the 6.6 kw charger on the ford focus still can only use a maximum of a 30 A pull. You would need a vehicle with a higher internal charger to get any benefit out of the 50 A right now (but who is to say those won't come out in the future). Also, on most household pannels, the max you can put on a normal break slot is 20 A, AeroEnvironment and most other electrictians will usually install a tandom 20 A + 20 A breaker (this is what they do for your dryer socket) for a total of 40 A dedicated. The leaf really only needs 20 A but the 40 is for safety and with the future intention of going with a 6.6 kw charger in the vehicle (most likely). So for the 50 A unit, your breaker box would need to support 3 full slots? It may take another sperate additional box installed (I am not an electricitian so I am guessing for the 50 A). So 30 A is way more than you need for now, I wouldn't consider the 50 A since it will be a long time before you could utilize that for a car and the rewiring would be pricer.

GoSmart has the chargers listed at 2,250, but I found other places listing their units for 900. Maybe the 2,250 comes with installation or they raised their price?

@dallasleaf - you have been quite lucky to get an orphan. I have tried to get one for awhile now and have been unsuccessful. Mostly, its been due to the limitations my wife and I have: must have QC port and can't be silver! Also, I may have actually met you before (or seen you anyway). I work for the North Central Texas Council of Governments. Although I don't work directly with the NTEAA team here, I know all the staff that does. They are hoping to install a level 2 charger here at work, which I may be the only one that will be using it anytime soon. But if you come to the office, we can switch so you can get the extra juice while at a meeting here...that is, when they install the charger

 

[davewill]

...electrictians will usually install a tandom 20 A + 20 A breaker (this is what they do for your dryer socket) for a total of 40 A dedicated. The leaf really only needs 20 A but the 40 is for safety and with the future intention of going with a 6.6 kw charger in the vehicle (most likely). So for the 50 A unit, your breaker box would need to support 3 full slots? ...

No, it doesn't work like that. For a 30a EVSE you install two 40a breakers. The two breakers are for each of the hot legs of a 240v circuit, 120v circuits use one, 240v circuits use a tandem. They are not added together as you suggest. The 50a unit would likely require a double 65a breaker...and lots of expensive wiring, maybe panel upgrading, etc...

A dryer socket is usually a NEMA 10-30, and should have a tandem 30a breaker installed.

 

[Pipcecil]

For a 30a EVSE you install two 40a breakers

Hmm that might be a typo why would you need 80a of breakers for a 30a EVSE? I know, unless its a special breaker, the max you can add into a slot is 20a. To get the 40a, which is what my dryer is 2 20a breakers that are joined together so they both are tripped (used) together - how the backwiring is done, I don't know, I just know its 2 20a on top of each other (tandom) joined together by one bar. My stove on the other hand is a specalized 30a breaker. If this is not standard then my house, all my neighbors, my parents, and my inlaws all have incorrect box wirings. The local electrician I had come out and look at it saw no problems and quoted to add 2 20a breakers in tandom for the EVSE. when eVgo did their assessment, they said the same thing.

 

[davewill]

For a 30a EVSE you install two 40a breakers

Hmm that might be a typo why would you need 80a of breakers for a 30a EVSE? I know, unless its a special breaker, the max you can add into a slot is 20a. To get the 40a, which is what my dryer is 2 20a breakers that are joined together so they both are tripped (used) together - how the backwiring is done, I don't know, I just know its 2 20a on top of each other (tandom) joined together by one bar. My stove on the other hand is a specalized 30a breaker. If this is not standard then my house, all my neighbors, my parents, and my inlaws all have incorrect box wirings. The local electrician I had come out and look at it saw no problems and quoted to add 2 20a breakers in tandom for the EVSE. when eVgo did their assessment, they said the same thing.

Because you don't add up the two poles like that. If you need a 30a circuit, you need a 2 pole, 30a breaker. A 30amp EVSE needs a 40amp circuit, therefore you install a 2 pole, 40a breaker.

P.S. just dawned on me that you might actually be talking about TWO double pole breakers wired in parallel...but I've never seen that done. It WOULD add up the way you're describing, though.

 

[SierraQ]

... Love the car, love the way it drives. I would say a real in town average is 80-90 miles. On the freeway 70+ miles. ...

Thank you, dallasleaf. You are the "one Leaf owner I've met in DFW" mentioned previously so of course you would end up answering my question about range in DFW. By the way, it was very nice to meet you both. The encounter helped my wife become more interested in and comfortable with the Leaf. Awesome!

 

[dallasleaf]

OK DFW EV lovers!
North Texas EEA is hosting the first Leaf reunion on Saturday June 11 at REI and Bankston Nissan in Dallas.
Details are at our website http://www.nteaa.org.
We are meeting with the folks at North Texas Renewable Energy Group (NTREG) (http://www.txses.org/NTREG).
The first part of the meeting will happen at REI and then move over to Bankston to see the Leaf as well as some conversion cars.
The folks from EVGO will be there to answer questions about their program. There may be a Mitsubishi i Miev. There has been one rumored to be in town.
We are not trying to one-up anyone in the area, this meeting has been in the works since April. We want to see how many Leafs we can get out for this big event.
There are 4 that belong to club members and we are hoping they all will be there. Bankston has told us their Leaf expert will be on hand to answer any questions.
All those who are interested come on out to see some actual cars and drivers. Those other new Leaf owners who are in the area, bring your car for us to see.
Any EVs or hybrid cars of any make are welcome. I am trying to figure out a way to get the Leaf and my VW conversion there for the day.
By the way you can see my VW at http://www.evalbum.com/2485. EV Album is a great site with EVs of all types from around the world. I going to add the Leaf in the coming days.
Hope to see everyone on the 11th!

 

[scottysize]

Picked ours up Thursday after just a little over a year wait. Not too bad. Love it, however, if you ordered from North Texas Nissan in Grapevine, go elsewhere. That dealer, specifically Richard the salesman is horrible.

 

[senordaley]

I had just learned about the ev auto enthusiast meet on the 11th. The salesman
at Bankston Nissan of Dallas told me about it. Sounds pretty interesting, and I
do think I will attend.

Our local dealers are potentially in a price agreement, as no dealer appears to be willing
to sell under sticker. In other large markets, there are sales of up to 7% under sticker.

What's going on around Dallas?