Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

[planet4ever]

Oops! I'm showing my age. The 55 speed limit was nearly 40 years ago. I believe it came into being when Nixon was President and he left office in 1972.

You're showing your age, all right -- you just had a "senior moment". Nixon didn't leave office in '72, indeed he was reelected in '72 and Watergate didn't knock him out until '74. But you are right that Nixon signed the 55 speed limit law -- in 1974. It was actually in effect for 13 years, until the 2nd Reagan term. So 30 years ago was just about the middle of its lifetime.

Speaking of age, I remember buying gas for 25 cents a gallon while I was in college in the late '60s.

Ray

 

[hodad66]

$.25 is my low memory also..... for my "57" Chevy..... :mrgreen:

 

[Deleted member 1622]

ENIAC -

Sorry, I beg to differ, I WAS called a spy who has tried to spread misinformation, you can read TRONZ's post about it below and it's pretty clear what his meaning is. Hopefully most people on this forum are not operating under this paranoid delusion, though I've seen other posts that make me think TRONZ is not the only one who thinks this way.
Anyway, in answer to your question about battery capacity, I will certainly have it checked out at our 1,000-mile service coming up in a few weeks, but I don't think it's a capacity issue. You say you went 112 road miles in January, but were you on the highway at all during that time? It's the highway issue that makes a big difference on range. I am sure I could get 112 miles if I went on city streets and did constant stop-start motion with coasting.
My 50-mile estimate is based on my wife's current commute and the 80% recommended charge (so the range is obviously higher for 100%). She goes from Berkeley to Vallejo in the Bay Area every day -- that's a 43-mile total commute. Without a little extra juice in the morning before she leaves, the car will read 15 miles left after she comes home, and that's as close as we want to get it, there's no point in running to single digits. So that's why I say 50 highway miles is the recommended distance... this is not a crazy recommendation, and I am not the only one saying this. In fact, the very first person to get a Leaf delivered to him in the U.S., Oliver Chalouhi in the Bay Area, posted this exact same sentiment here:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/12/16/first-leaf-owner-olivier-chalouhi-gives-updates-on-vehicles-performance/
"Although Chalouhi loves his LEAF and he’s glad he bought it, he does not recommend the vehicle for individuals with a daily commute over 25 miles each way, this of course being at freeway speed. "

I think people need to realize that everyone's experience will not be the same for this vehicle. That means my observations about a 50-mile range on the highway at 80% are just as valid as the guy who gets 100 miles driving around town on streets.
Let's be a little more open to hearing about these different experiences, instead of assuming that someone else is wrong because he's having a different experience from you. When all 20,000 of these cars get on the road by the end of this year, I think the true range for highway commuters will be apparent.

Josh

Malcolm --

Josh

Josh, no offense, but there's no need to lash out at TRONZ and the other members on the board. No one on the board called you a spy. Back on topic, I simply don't understand how a new LEAF owner would be satisfied with 50 mile range. That's not right. One day in Jan I put 112 miles on my LEAF. So when I read you are getting only 50, I'm shocked. Have you talked to your dealer about this issue? I asked this earlier in the thread and I'll asked it again, are you sure your battery pack is functioning properly?

Posted earlier by TRONZ:
Not trying to be a jerk or anything here but where did barsad22 buy his car and where is he driving it around? Did I miss something??? I mean, usually when I pick up the phone and someone starts asking me questions making provocative statements I ask "who am I speaking with"? I re-read some of the "interesting" and "conflicting" word choices in the OP and would really appreciate you providing at least your VIN# and dealer info here;

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... 1I8B#gid=0

barsad22, your OP is written with alot of "spin" words for and against the LEAF. But lets be clear, "spin" is "spin" and the purpose of writing conflicting "spin", as you have, is to plant doubt and controversy for readers that don't know any better. Mission Accomplished, eh . It would also seem you are eager to be the victim of Nissan, "warn" future LEAF buyers (first words of your OP) and claim to be attacked on this thread when everyone is just offering alot of great, thoughtful advice. Most very early adopters are more than happy to share there order/delivery info. Considering all the above, it is very strange that you do not!

 

[hodad66]

I know that if I had anything close to 100 mile daily travel
that I certainly wouldn't be looking at a Leaf. This is new
technology, performance and driving styles vary.

My travel won't come close to 50 miles so do I worry? No
All I want is to be able to buy one. Perhaps Nissan should
be looking at the reserved stated usage rather than what
state they live in.

 

[evnow]

So that's why I say 50 highway miles is the recommended distance... this is not a crazy recommendation, and I am not the only one saying this. In fact, the very first person to get a Leaf delivered to him in the U.S., Oliver Chalouhi in the Bay Area, posted this exact same sentiment here:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/12/16/first-leaf-owner-olivier-chalouhi-gives-updates-on-vehicles-performance/
"Although Chalouhi loves his LEAF and he’s glad he bought it, he does not recommend the vehicle for individuals with a daily commute over 25 miles each way, this of course being at freeway speed. "

50 miles is definitely not a crazy recommendation - a lot of people recommend 50% of EV stated miles.

BTW, "gudi"'s comments were misconstrued and he restated his views after that. You can probably find the posts here if you search. Also in plugincars.com.

70 is a good limit I'd suggest for people in warm climates and use freeways responsibly.

ps : In carwings for Mar 6th, the highest for US was 77 miles. mwalsh had 66 miles and Gudy had 57 miles.

 

[Googler]

I've had many friends ask me what I think of my new Leaf, and whether I would recommend it. My answer is always "no" unless your requirements are very constrained. I would have preferred that they dramatically shrink the size and weight of the car, and put in a 20% larger battery. I had originally signed up for an Aptera, and I wish they had been able to deliver instead of Nissan. It's just not a practical car for most people yet. Maybe in the next generation.

 

[ENIAC]

I've had many friends ask me what I think of my new Leaf, and whether I would recommend it. My answer is always "no" unless your requirements are very constrained. I would have preferred that they dramatically shrink the size and weight of the car, and put in a 20% larger battery. I had originally signed up for an Aptera, and I wish they had been able to deliver instead of Nissan. It's just not a practical car for most people yet. Maybe in the next generation.

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

 

[Jimmydreams]

I've had many friends ask me what I think of my new Leaf, and whether I would recommend it. My answer is always "no" unless your requirements are very constrained. I would have preferred that they dramatically shrink the size and weight of the car, and put in a 20% larger battery. I had originally signed up for an Aptera, and I wish they had been able to deliver instead of Nissan. It's just not a practical car for most people yet. Maybe in the next generation.

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

I tell them if they commute more than 60 miles round trip, no. Otherwise, if you're willing to make some small considerations concerning your vehicle, then yes. Face it, $4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet. How is thinking about where and how fast you drive your Leaf different?

Besides, I tell them I'm getting the equivalent of 100mpg at $4/gal gas. THAT usually gets their attention!

 

[ENIAC]

ENIAC -

Sorry, I beg to differ, I WAS called a spy

I checked, and no one called you a spy. What is it exactly do you think we are accusing you of spying on? No one here has any secrets worth spying on in the first place.

I am sure I could get 112 miles

I agree!

 

[ENIAC]

I've had many friends ask me what I think of my new Leaf, and whether I would recommend it. My answer is always "no" unless your requirements are very constrained. I would have preferred that they dramatically shrink the size and weight of the car, and put in a 20% larger battery. I had originally signed up for an Aptera, and I wish they had been able to deliver instead of Nissan. It's just not a practical car for most people yet. Maybe in the next generation.

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

I tell them if they commute more than 60 miles round trip, no. Otherwise, if you're willing to make some small considerations concerning your vehicle, then yes. Face it, $4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet. How is thinking about where and how fast you drive your Leaf different?

Besides, I tell them I'm getting the equivalent of 100mpg at $4/gal gas. THAT usually gets their attention!

Really? From the guy who puts more miles on their LEAF than any of us. Really? The first frigging day I put over 80 highway miles on my LEAF!

 

[walterbays]

$4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet.

So far in the San Diego paper's poll, 49% report they are driving less and 14% report they are slowing down. (You can only choose one answer.) http://www.signonsandiego.com/polls/2011/feb/how-are-gas-prices-most-affecting-you/results/ But I still see vehicles sitting in parking lots with their engines running. It was a mild pleasant day today, but they had the windows up and were burning gas to run the A/C. Something to think about while we're lamenting how many kWh it takes to run the LEAF climate control for an hour in extreme temperatures: it could be worse - gallons worse.

 

[Googler]

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

No - it's more complicated than that. In particular if they are PG&E customers then they need to perform a very complicated analysis on their energy usage to see if it makes sense. They also have to be willing to take a risk on a car that needs a $10K battery replacement in six years. They also need to estimate when California will run out of the $5K rebates.

I tell them if they commute more than 60 miles round trip, no. Otherwise, if you're willing to make some small considerations concerning your vehicle, then yes. Face it, $4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet. How is thinking about where and how fast you drive your Leaf different?

$4/gal gas is a bargain compared to $0.41/kwh electricity, particularly if you are driving a Prius as I have. At $4/gal I'm paying only $0.08/mile. 27kwh for 90 miles works out to $0.123 per mile to drive the Leaf. That's why I have to warn them about the very complicated situation for electricity pricing of PG&E customers. The solutions for this are not simple at all:
1. I could get a PV system, but that involves considerable capital investment and it's not an option for me due to the configuration of my house.
2. I could switch to E9 rate plan, but then I'd be paying $0.569/kwh for daytime usage to heat my pool with the solar heater.
3. I could switch to E9B, but that requires a second meter, and again a big capital cost.

I've been saying all along that we should be careful in saying these things are for everyone. For PG&E customers it's not at all obvious.

 

[leafkabob]

They also have to be willing to take a risk on a car that needs a $10K battery replacement in six years.

Googler, is that correct? I did not think the battery pack is good for only six years? Can you point me to a cite for that?

 

[palmermd]

They also have to be willing to take a risk on a car that needs a $10K battery replacement in six years.

Googler, is that correct? I did not think the battery pack is good for only six years? Can you point me to a cite for that?

 

[Ready2plugin]

Googler: Please let us in....it sounds like you work at Google, where you are getting a large check to help purchase your EV...and Prius for that matter. You have charging at work, and you have a big enough house/pool that puts you in the upper tier for PG&E. I would stop complaining about the cost to charge your LEAF at home, since I believe you already admitted that you will be charging at work for free. The $10k/6yr is just FUD at this point...you have no idea the cost or the life of the battery pack...especially 6 years down the line...

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

No - it's more complicated than that. In particular if they are PG&E customers then they need to perform a very complicated analysis on their energy usage to see if it makes sense. They also have to be willing to take a risk on a car that needs a $10K battery replacement in six years. They also need to estimate when California will run out of the $5K rebates.

I tell them if they commute more than 60 miles round trip, no. Otherwise, if you're willing to make some small considerations concerning your vehicle, then yes. Face it, $4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet. How is thinking about where and how fast you drive your Leaf different?

$4/gal gas is a bargain compared to $0.41/kwh electricity, particularly if you are driving a Prius as I have. At $4/gal I'm paying only $0.08/mile. 27kwh for 90 miles works out to $0.123 per mile to drive the Leaf. That's why I have to warn them about the very complicated situation for electricity pricing of PG&E customers. The solutions for this are not simple at all:
1. I could get a PV system, but that involves considerable capital investment and it's not an option for me due to the configuration of my house.
2. I could switch to E9 rate plan, but then I'd be paying $0.569/kwh for daytime usage to heat my pool with the solar heater.
3. I could switch to E9B, but that requires a second meter, and again a big capital cost.

I've been saying all along that we should be careful in saying these things are for everyone. For PG&E customers it's not at all obvious.

 

[ENIAC]

You should have said "no" unless you're one of the 5% who actually need to travel further than a LEAF can go in a day. Don't you think that would have been a better answer?

No - it's more complicated than that. In particular if they are PG&E customers then they need to perform a very complicated analysis on their energy usage to see if it makes sense. They also have to be willing to take a risk on a car that needs a $10K battery replacement in six years. They also need to estimate when California will run out of the $5K rebates.

People don't do a business case analysis when they buy a car. If they did we would all be taking mass transit.

I tell them if they commute more than 60 miles round trip, no. Otherwise, if you're willing to make some small considerations concerning your vehicle, then yes. Face it, $4/gal gas makes think about where and how fast they drive because it affects their wallet. How is thinking about where and how fast you drive your Leaf different?

$4/gal gas is a bargain compared to $0.41/kwh electricity, particularly if you are driving a Prius as I have. At $4/gal I'm paying only $0.08/mile. 27kwh for 90 miles works out to $0.123 per mile to drive the Leaf. That's why I have to warn them about the very complicated situation for electricity pricing of PG&E customers. The solutions for this are not simple at all:
1. I could get a PV system, but that involves considerable capital investment and it's not an option for me due to the configuration of my house.
2. I could switch to E9 rate plan, but then I'd be paying $0.569/kwh for daytime usage to heat my pool with the solar heater.
3. I could switch to E9B, but that requires a second meter, and again a big capital cost.

I've been saying all along that we should be careful in saying these things are for everyone. For PG&E customers it's not at all obvious.

According to PG&E website.

The E-9 rate has two basic options, metering the whole house (option A) or just the charger (option B). You should review the rate and make your own decisions based on your personal needs and lifestyle.

Sounds like you should simply select E-9 option "B".

 

[Googler]

According to PG&E website.

The E-9 rate has two basic options, metering the whole house (option A) or just the charger (option B). You should review the rate and make your own decisions based on your personal needs and lifestyle.

Sounds like you should simply select E-9 option "B".

Option "B" requires a second meter, so it's not as simple as checking a box on a form. I had an electrician to my house who told me I needed to trench to the street in order to get a permit for a second meter. That would cost thousands of dollars and destroy our roses. PG&E is silent on this.

 

[SteveInSeattle]

It certainly sounds like there are places where local utility rates make the Leaf a less attractive alternative-- I don't understand why it leads to the back and forth debate. In Seattle the Leaf will make sense financially and environmentally, maybe not so much in San Diego. Likely there will be policy changes and maybe the Leaf will be more economical after those changes. The Prius is a vast improvement over the typical SUV, so us Leafers should support those that opt for a Prius-- we are all on the same side, trying to be more sparing with carbon producing fuels.

 

[Googler]

People don't do a business case analysis when they buy a car. If they did we would all be taking mass transit.

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors. That's precisely why this forum is a questionable place for newcomers to get advice, and why people ask their friends for advice rather than strangers.

I was speaking about whether I would recommend it to my friends. Everyone I know makes their car purchasing decisions on the basis of multiple factors, including family size, commute distance, economics, color, driving characteristics, safety, etc.

As for the battery replacement issue - Nissan is not entirely forthcoming on the issue of battery degradation, but this happens to all batteries over time. The only issue is the rate, and this is hotly debated by people on the forum, but in the absence of definitive information it comes down to a risk evaluation by the consumer. If you are counting on using a Leaf for a long commute and you need to charge 100% to get that, then once the battery has degraded 10% or 20%, you may be in a situation where you can no longer make your round trip commute on a full charge. When advising my friends I warn them about this issue, though clearly some want to ignore it.

 

[mwalsh]

People don't do a business case analysis when they buy a car. If they did we would all be taking mass transit.

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors. That's precisely why this forum is a questionable place for newcomers to get advice, and why people ask their friends for advice rather than strangers.

I agree with ENIAC. Whether a car purchase makes financial sense rarely enters into the decision process for most people.