Disappointment with battery capacity and "Nissan miles"

[ENIAC]

People don't do a business case analysis when they buy a car. If they did we would all be taking mass transit.

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors. That's precisely why this forum is a questionable place for newcomers to get advice, and why people ask their friends for advice rather than strangers.

I was speaking about whether I would recommend it to my friends. Everyone I know makes their car purchasing decisions on the basis of multiple factors, including family size, commute distance, economics, color, driving characteristics, safety, etc.

As for the battery replacement issue - Nissan is not entirely forthcoming on the issue of battery degradation, but this happens to all batteries over time. The only issue is the rate, and this is hotly debated by people on the forum, but in the absence of definitive information it comes down to a risk evaluation by the consumer. If you are counting on using a Leaf for a long commute and you need to charge 100% to get that, then once the battery has degraded 10% or 20%, you may be in a situation where you can no longer make your round trip commute on a full charge. When advising my friends I warn them about this issue, though clearly some want to ignore it.

If that's a major concern for you or your friends, then I would recommend leasing rather than purchasing the LEAF. However, I decided to purchase. When I have my pack tested at year one, I'll have my first data point based on empirical information. Here's how I believe it will play out. After 6 or 7 years my pack will have degraded to the point where I'll need to charge to 100% rather than 80% that I'm doing now. I will have recovered all of the range and more than when the LEAF was new and charging at 80%. Also, the ubiquitous EV charging infrastructure will make range issues moot anyways. At ten years, if I still own the car, there will be new and improved modules for the pack. So I'll have some modules swapped out and the result will be that I'll have even more kWh than when the pack was new! I'll keep the old modules and connect them to my solar system to charge during the day and draw from once the sun has set. After another decade in that application, I'll sell them to a battery recycler.

By the way, when you're looking at the new ICE cars, be sure to warn your friends about the CVTs. When those puppies fail, you're looking at $7500!

 

[planet4ever]

$4/gal gas is a bargain compared to $0.41/kwh electricity, particularly if you are driving a Prius as I have. At $4/gal I'm paying only $0.08/mile. 27kwh for 90 miles works out to $0.123 per mile to drive the Leaf. That's why I have to warn them about the very complicated situation for electricity pricing of PG&E customers. The solutions for this are not simple at all:
1. I could get a PV system, but that involves considerable capital investment and it's not an option for me due to the configuration of my house.
2. I could switch to E9 rate plan, but then I'd be paying $0.569/kwh for daytime usage to heat my pool with the solar heater.
3. I could switch to E9B, but that requires a second meter, and again a big capital cost.

With E9B you'll be paying $0.06/kWh to $0.068/kWh to charge your car, and no change in electricity cost for the house. If you drive 15K miles per year you might use up to 5,000 kWh for the car. Compared to $.41/kWh that would save you more than $1700 per year. The capital cost would probably be paid off in less than 2 years, and after that you would be paying about $0.02/mile. What's so complicated about that?

Ray

 

[Jimmydreams]

Really? From the guy who puts more miles on their LEAF than any of us. Really? The first frigging day I put over 80 highway miles on my LEAF!

Yes, "really". The people I talk to are not that willing to make many compromises and they drive long commutes at highway speeds. So, "really", I tell them 60 mile commutes allow for some small side-trips or errands and still arrive at home without worrying about being into the second Low Battery warning.

If I told them something else, I'd be untruthful.

I don't understand your incredulity at my comments. Should I tell people they can rely on the 100 mile number? Should I say since you got 80 highway miles in YOUR Leaf that that number should be the standard? I don't know how fast you drive. I don't know how many hills you have. I DO know the terrain in San Diego, so I stand by my comments.

As of this morning, ENIAC, I have 3531 miles on the ODO. I believe I know what I'm talking about.

 

[mwalsh]

I must admit that I do qualify any recommendations with "and if you drive it like this you'll get around xx miles". That way they understand different driving styles and sets of circumstances will have an effect on available range. I think it's an important part of setting expectations that is pretty much overlooked by manufacturers looking to give a firm figure per charge.

 

[EricH]

People don't do a business case analysis when they buy a car. If they did we would all be taking mass transit.

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors. That's precisely why this forum is a questionable place for newcomers to get advice, and why people ask their friends for advice rather than strangers.

I was speaking about whether I would recommend it to my friends. Everyone I know makes their car purchasing decisions on the basis of multiple factors, including family size, commute distance, economics, color, driving characteristics, safety, etc.

??? I don't get the hostility, nor the blanket assertion that "EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis." First, one might choose to define an "enthusiast" as someone who ingores purely rational/financial factors in their pursuit of wine/stamps/horses/etc. in the first place. Second, entire car brands (BMW, Jaguar) are built on the fact that almost nobody chooses a car purchase entirely on business case analysis -- one glance at Consumer Reports' car issue will show several popular brands with abysmal reliability and resale values.

I've found this forum to be a goldmine of technical information on the Leaf - none of which has impacted my purchase decision but much of which has refined, tempered, or informed my expectations about the Leaf experience. I would (and have) referred people to this forum as a great source of current and detailed info on the Leaf.

Lastly, I do business case analyses for a living, so that in my off time I can relax and make occasional purchases that, while not strictly cost-efficient, reflect my values and preferences... like a new car. I make no pretense that a Honda Fit would be more expensive mile-for-mile than a Leaf, but (like every BMW owner) I chose to make a statement and/or be proud of what I drive, irrespective of the extra cost. I also like taking advantage of government incentives, and free/discounted fueling opportunities that I see today and which I hope will persist for at least a few years. I like people stopping me to ask about my car (which happened for the three years I drove a Think City). I think that only a tiny minority of car purchases are made explicitly and solely on a financial basis, so EV purchases (by informed buyers) are no less "business case" based than BMW or Humvee purchases.

Why pick on "EV enthusiasts"?

 

[TRONZ]

Some people fail to see that a car like the LEAF is actually a far better car than your typical mid size hatchback. They think it is some sort of performance/technology compromise so must be based on a financial reason only. Those that actually drive a LEAF come around real fast. For those that wouldn't be caught dead in an EV, it's all good. They will be getting their $6.00 gas soon enough. :lol:

 

[lonndoggie]

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors. That's precisely why this forum is a questionable place for newcomers to get advice, and why people ask their friends for advice rather than strangers.

I've found this forum to be a goldmine of technical information on the Leaf - none of which has impacted my purchase decision but much of which has refined, tempered, or informed my expectations about the Leaf experience. I would (and have) referred people to this forum as a great source of current and detailed info on the Leaf.

On both points:

"Business" Case Analysis (it's an economic analysis--I ain't running a business):
I wouldn't be buying a Leaf if it didn't make economic sense for our family: We'd already decided, before the Leaf hit our radar, that were going to be buying a new commuter vehicle (probably a hybrid) to replace a now 11-year-old ICE vehicle. The various incentives brought the price within range. It fits our needs (we have other cars for long hauls/large hauls, my commute is short). The maintenance costs over 10 years--including battery replacement--are extremely likely to be lower than those any ICE I've owned. With gas prices doing what they're doing, and given the rate at which I'll be charged for electricity for late-night refueling at home, we'll save on energy. After all that, we can start to get into the more emotional aspects (it's cool, it's green, it's quiet) that further tipped the already tipped scales.

MNL as a Source Of Valuable, Objective Information:
There is so much, it's hard to imagine how you could think otherwise. But let me offer this, as something I learned recently that might benefit you as well (assuming that you are still considering a Leaf, given how it seems to be a major fail for you): I learned (I think, no one responded with a "Yes, that's right" when I asked if this was the case), that the second meter (at least in SDG&E territory) is installed in series with the house meter, after it. Thus, no additional trenching would be required if you went with E9B. It's not another SERVICE, it's just another meter. This may be why PG&E isn't making a big deal about the expense--other than wiring it in, there isn't much. And, if you're in one of the newly added EV Project areas, maybe you can qualify to get the meter free, too (SDG&E/EV Project are doing that for me).

 

[walterbays]

It's certainly evident from this forum that EV enthusiasts don't like a business case analysis, because their enthusiasm for EVs outweighs any economic factors.

The midsize SUV is one of the most popular car classes - or at least was before the recent gas price spike. One of the top selling models is the Jeep Grand Cherokee. Equipped similarly to the Nissan Leaf it lists for $38,410 and up. (No government tax credits apply.) It gets 16 MPG city and 23 MPG highway. It has been selling about 11,000 units per month.

The Cadillac Escalade has been selling 1,300 units per month - still rather more than Leaf has been selling. It starts at $63,160 and gets 14/18 MPG.

It seems evident to me that most car buyers, ICE, PHEV, Hybrid, and EV, are not making a solid business case analysis.

 

[planet4ever]

I learned (I think, no one responded with a "Yes, that's right" when I asked if this was the case), that the second meter (at least in SDG&E territory) is installed in series with the house meter, after it. Thus, no additional trenching would be required if you went with E9B. It's not another SERVICE, it's just another meter. This may be why PG&E isn't making a big deal about the expense--other than wiring it in, there isn't much.

Each utility seems to do things a bit differently, even when we are talking about regulated utilities in the same state. I'm pretty sure PG&E, which covers most of northern California, doesn't do meters in series. And it appears (though I'm a bit less sure of this) that E9B is effectively a second service with a separate baseline quantity. That's so you can be in tier 1 or 2 for the car even though your E1 house service may be in tier 3 or 4. That's also apparently why some cities, such as San Francisco, don't allow E9B, because they are fighting to keep single housing units from being effectively split into two.

And, if you're in one of the newly added EV Project areas, maybe you can qualify to get the meter free, too (SDG&E/EV Project are doing that for me).

PG&E does have a meter cost, but it doesn't hit you up front. You are basically renting the meter for about 22 cents a day plus another 15 cents minimum charge when you don't use it. i.e. it's going to cost you a bit more than $11/month even if it is just sitting there. But the cost Googler was referring to was for getting the service to the house and installing a second distribution panel.

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

$4/gal gas is a bargain compared to $0.41/kwh electricity, particularly if you are driving a Prius as I have. At $4/gal I'm paying only $0.08/mile. 27kwh for 90 miles works out to $0.123 per mile to drive the Leaf.

I've been saying all along that we should be careful in saying these things are for everyone. For PG&E customers it's not at all obvious.

granted your electricity rates are extreme, but lets examine this "bargin" of yours.

some studies seem to think that our accelerated burning of fossil fuels has lowered some people's life expectancy as much as 6 years due to complications of our lungs inability to filter out airborne pollutants.

in some areas (mostly in Cali) pollution from cars attributes more than half to those airborne particles. so when talking about bargains, how much is YOUR life worth?

ok, that is all speculation and probably cannot be proven despite a HUGE body of evidence to the contrary.

my Prius, i averaged (when i drove it, the average WILL go down about 4 mpg due to differences in driving needs and styles.) 54 mpg.

besides gas, i also spend an additional $100 a year on various fluids, filters, etc. i dont drive much. up until i got my Leaf, i had owned the Prius 20 months but driven only 17,000 miles. that includes a 12 day car trip that took up almost 4,000 miles alone.

or if looking for bargains, what you should really do is finance the American debt. the return on the investment i hear is awesome!! now, foreign oil is not solely responsible for that debt, but the effect of sending half a trillion bucks to a foreign country annually must make some difference to our bottom line.

or better yet, you can continue to NOT SUPPORT your local economy (electricity may be expensive but it is primarily a 100% AMERICAN based product. i would say local, but some parts of Cali imports almost of their electricity from another state) now doing so will undermine the financial engine that fuels job growth. people all around you will foreclose, causing prices on nearly everything to go down and then u will save money because you wont have to spend as much money!!

 

[lonndoggie]

I learned (I think, no one responded with a "Yes, that's right" when I asked if this was the case), that the second meter (at least in SDG&E territory) is installed in series with the house meter, after it. Thus, no additional trenching would be required if you went with E9B. It's not another SERVICE, it's just another meter. This may be why PG&E isn't making a big deal about the expense--other than wiring it in, there isn't much.

Each utility seems to do things a bit differently, even when we are talking about regulated utilities in the same state. I'm pretty sure PG&E, which covers most of northern California, doesn't do meters in series. And it appears (though I'm a bit less sure of this) that E9B is effectively a second service with a separate baseline quantity. That's so you can be in tier 1 or 2 for the car even though your E1 house service may be in tier 3 or 4. That's also apparently why some cities, such as San Francisco, don't allow E9B, because they are fighting to keep single housing units from being effectively split into two.

I never thought SDG&E would do meters in series, either, but when Jimmydreams said they subtract his EV meter kWh usage from his house meter before calculating his bill, it became pretty obvious that's what they do. Doing that math allows you to have different baseline rates, if that's what you're doing. I think JD is on baseline for his house and (definitely) TOU for his car, but you could mix-n-match as needed.

And, if you're in one of the newly added EV Project areas, maybe you can qualify to get the meter free, too (SDG&E/EV Project are doing that for me).

PG&E does have a meter cost, but it doesn't hit you up front. You are basically renting the meter for about 22 cents a day plus another 15 cents minimum charge when you don't use it. i.e. it's going to cost you a bit more than $11/month even if it is just sitting there.

Ouch. The $.15/day will likely not come up much, but .22/day is sucky.

But the cost Googler was referring to was for getting the service to the house and installing a second distribution panel.

Which I still don't get. The only reason you'd need a new line trenched is if the service coming in was insufficient to supply the house and the evse. If so, he'd need the new line even without the meter. Not sure what it takes to branch off a line above the existing panel, so those costs would be there.

Anyway, all this is definitely making me glad I'm in SDG&E's service area and not PG&E's or LADWP!

 

[GeekEV]

On the subject of range and projections, today I did 66 miles in eco mode with no climate control. Well over half of it was freeway miles at 60-65 mph. I arrived back home with 30 miles on the estimated range. That seems pretty good to me. I was pleased...

 

[wwhitney]

Which I still don't get. The only reason you'd need a new line trenched is if the service coming in was insufficient to supply the house and the evse. If so, he'd need the new line even without the meter.

I'm a PG&E customer, and I was told that if you want to touch the service is any way, you need to bring it up to their current standards. For example, I have a 1980-ish 2" underground service conduit, but the current requirement is a 3" underground service conduit, so that would require retrenching. Even if the existing conductor in the existing conduit is of adequate size.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[garygid]

SDG&E has similar "touchy" service-upgrade requirements that require trenching.

 

[lonndoggie]

SDG&E has similar "touchy" service-upgrade requirements that require trenching.

Which, again, would potentially be a problem installing just the evse, yes? Not sure what constitutes "touching the service" -- changes before the panel?

(Several million years ago, I worked at SDG&E in the electrical distribution engineering department--but as a programmer, not a power engineer. Obviously, not much of that rubbed off on me...)

Let me amend my "glad I'm in SDG&E service area" to add "and that I have a reasonably new house".

 

[DaveEV]

SDG&E has similar "touchy" service-upgrade requirements that require trenching.

Which, again, would potentially be a problem installing just the evse, yes? Not sure what constitutes "touching the service" -- changes before the panel?

Would be nice to know. Apparently my underground service wires are rated for 125A but my main panel is only rated for 100A and I know that my load calcs could be over 100A w/the EVSE added. But 125A would probably be OK. Either way I wouldn't mind a higher rated service panel which will make it easier to add more PV down the road. A previous electrician said that it might be possible to upgrade the panel to 125A without retrenching and bringing the entire service entrance up to current code. Maybe. Depends on SDG&E and he's seen it go either way. Definitely going any higher than 125A will require retrenching and pulling new conduit/conductors from the street. Will find out soon enough!

 

[Herm]

I was speaking about whether I would recommend it to my friends. Everyone I know makes their car purchasing decisions on the basis of multiple factors, including family size, commute distance, economics, color, driving characteristics, safety, etc.
.
As for the battery replacement issue - Nissan is not entirely forthcoming on the issue of battery degradation, but this happens to all batteries over time.

This is the first year of a totally new class of car, you would have to be crazy to recommend it to anyone that was not an enthusiast.. and if they are an enthusiast they probably know all about it anyways. Regarding range, just tell them what Nissan says.. anywhere from 50-100 miles or so, and the EPA official 73 miles range.. throw in that some very careful drivers are getting 190 miles of range. That should get them the idea that range is variable, and if they are interested tell them why.
Nissan is very forthcoming on the battery life issue.. again everyone will get different results but 5 years/ 100k miles should be safe numbers unless they live in Death Valley. Some people will get 12 years / 300k miles.

 

[andrer75]

I'd say don't look at the miles on dash. Look at battery capacity. It's based on the last fee min of driving. Gas cars don't usually have that and we usually look at what's left in the tank. You will be fine driving for at least 70 miles or more if you switch to ECO.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

If you focus on driving consistently and learn how to adjust the average in your head a bit for most recent changes, like going up or down hills, the GOM can be very helpful, especially toward the end where it fluctuates less. For long trips I start with a zeroed out trip odometer and MPkW meter and add the trip odometer and gom to assure I stay within the target distance, moderating my driving as needed to keep the MPkW up ... works like a charm!

In the winter time you have to rely on preheating for 30 minutes or more if you want to eliminate/diminish climate control use... you can double your winter time range that way.

I'd say don't look at the miles on dash. Look at battery capacity. It's based on the last fee min of driving. Gas cars don't usually have that and we usually look at what's left in the tank. You will be fine driving for at least 70 miles or more if you switch to ECO.

 

[wescom]

I know this is an old post, but I am replying to it because it captures my disappointment as well, which I have had for nearly two years now. I'm sorry I don't read the forum all the time; I am very busy. Nevertheless, I searched and scanned the forum for a solution, but the search did not find one for me easily.

First of all: My driving habits: 35-38 mph, flat city streets, 12 miles/day, N California weather (generally mild), ECO mode always, charge to 80%, never turn on heat OR A/C, do not slam on accelerator at all, and the onboard indicator says 4.9 mi/kWhr. Car received ~Aug 2011.

I absolutely agree that there is a difference between "Nissan miles" and actual miles. In fact, I record before and after EVERY charge, both the change in "Nissan miles" from the "miles to go" indicator, and my actual odometer miles. The ratio between these two is about 60%, that is, the car actually goes about 60% the miles you would expect if you believed the "miles to go" indicator. So to be safe, I generally divide the "miles to go" by about a factor of two!!

I have had my Leaf serviced by Nissan, and they found nothing wrong, and they did one software update, too.

Thus, to me, it appears that the "miles to go" indicator grossly overestimates the distance available. Why is this? You might argue that, "You are heavy on the accelerator." Maybe so, but it would make the car really hard to enjoy if I CRAWLED out from every light. I accelerate just like the rest of the traffic, without over-accelerating. Anyway, no matter what one might say about my driving habits, my numbers are exact: the "miles to go" display change is far larger than the actual miles driven, even though my driving habits (see above) are near-optimal

Several thoughts:

(a) Given that there are several computers on board, I do not see why the car does not dynamically adjust the conversion factor, say, once a week or once a month. The car has the actual data on odometer miles driven for a certain degree of charge, and it also knows its own "miles to go" estimate. There is really no reason why the conversion factor would not be 1.0; this is just a little programming. This would compensate for many differences between drivers, and the display would be much more accurate.

(b) Could the overestimation be intentional? I know this has been implied before. I don't have an opinion and I don't really care, but it would seem to be in the best interests of Nissan for this display to be accurate.

I am a Nissan Leaf lover, and I tell people about all the nice and wonderful aspects of this car, EXCEPT I tell the truth about the difference between "miles to go" and actual distance one can expect.

regards to all, and I hope I have missing something simple I can do to improve this,

wescom

Professional EV drivers:
There's no need to sell me on the car or tell me I had too high expectations, or to tell me that I'm an "inefficient driver" so really it's my fault rather than Nissan's. I'm an EV driver, just like you, and I support an EV future, just like you. I wouldn't have spent my life savings if that weren't the case.
What I'm trying to put out there is that Nissan is following a dangerous path and jeopardizing the Leaf's future on a mass market by putting numbers out there that don't correspond to real driving experience. We don't want this car only sold to the 20,000 people who like to get on MyNissanLeaf and talk about the car, or who have been driving EVs for 20 years. We want to sell 1,000,000 of these Leafs to people who today have never heard of the Leaf or even that there are electric cars on the road. That's the only way the world will change -- otherwise the Leafs will end up like the GM models, in a car crusher. And I think we agree that's everyone's worst nightmare.
In answer to your questions, yes, I live on a hill, and yes, I drive normal highway speed, which in 2011 is not 55-65 but is more like 65-70 unless you are going to hang out in the right lane. No, I don't blast climate control all the time and we drive in Eco mode nearly all of the time.
If one user truly got up to 107 miles on a 100% charge, then I guess there is extremely high variability on battery capacity, because as I said, I haven't cracked 90. Maybe it will improve as its used, but I doubt it.
As for the 50-mile highway range, I meant that it's 50 road miles on the recommended 80% charge, but even that will get you very close to 10 "Nissan miles" left. I find it hard to believe that people are going 60-70 miles on the highway at 80% charge.
Anyway, thanks for the driving tips, we will get better with practice. But I stand by what I said about Nissan's misinformation.

Josh