Electric bill cost for the leaf?

[Rat]

500 mi./mo for me and probably $20 - $30 a mo during summer on E9A over what I spent last year. I haven't received the bill yet for the first full month on the winter rates. Last winter I actually saved $10/mo by being on E9A but that's because I didn't have the car yet, even though PG&E put me on the EV rate. I expect the winter costs to be almost no increase over pre-TOU pre-Leaf costs, but it will take a full year on E9A with the car to know for sure. If it comes out to around $20/mo altogether, that's about 20 - 25% of the cost of gas for that mileage for us. I doubt the Leaf will pay for itself for me since I just don't have high mileage (being retired).

 

[Stanton]

Based on CarWings data for the month of November (I don't keep track of anything else), I used 211 kW to drive 978 miles, which comes out to about 4.6 m/kW. Since I pay 9.5 cents/kW here in Dallas, it cost me about $20 to power my Leaf for a month. Even if you throw in another 15% loss due to charging inefficiencies, it still costs me well under $25/month to drive my Leaf. However, the most amazing statistic to me is: the month BEFORE I got my Leaf I spent almost $350 on gas (my other 2 cars are a Mini Cooper and Ford Expedition--two ends of the fuel economy spectrum), and last month I spent about $125 on gas. Even adding in the cost of electricity for my Leaf, my gas bill dropped by more than half!

 

[cwerdna]

I wonder if the OP is really still interested or read my post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=158814#p158814" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. I think his question by itself isn't useful unless he knows he lives in an area w/cheap electricity.

I think others would be best served but not spending the time type up replies unless the OP's last visited date has advanced beyond Thu Dec 15, 2011.

 

[smkettner]

I drive about 50 mpd or 1500 miles per month. Just switched to Southern CA Edison TOU rates for EVs. Bill for Super Off Peak came to $65 last month and probably includes a small amount of other stuff running at night. 184 kWh @ 10 cents and 311 kWh @ 16 cents (tier 2). Very happy.

Neighbor was almost $300 (no EV) my bill was $180 That nearly killed him. Flourescent & LED lights sure help. His DW insists on incandescent :roll:

 

[shay]

Based on CarWings data for the month of November (I don't keep track of anything else), I used 211 kW to drive 978 miles, which comes out to about 4.6 m/kW. Since I pay 9.5 cents/kW here in Dallas, it cost me about $20 to power my Leaf for a month. Even if you throw in another 15% loss due to charging inefficiencies, it still costs me well under $25/month to drive my Leaf. However, the most amazing statistic to me is: the month BEFORE I got my Leaf I spent almost $350 on gas (my other 2 cars are a Mini Cooper and Ford Expedition--two ends of the fuel economy spectrum), and last month I spent about $125 on gas. Even adding in the cost of electricity for my Leaf, my gas bill dropped by more than half!

That is quite a savings. Has the Leaf replaced more of the Expedition miles?

 

[suwaneedad]

I'm a finance guy. I am taking delivery of my '12 LEAF next week purely for financial reasons (although I admit not sending money to the Middle East is great...I much prefer to buy West Virginia and Kentucky coal; and I admit liking the polar bear LEAF ad which probably translates into me being a hero to my daughters).

I will save ~$2500 a year on gasoline ($3/gal assumed) by 1) shifting my 12k miles/yr to the LEAF from my 23MPG commuter, 2) shifting my 17yo son's 10k mi/yr from the 11MPG Expedition to my 18MPG commuter (mileage reduction for his local driving + teen lead-foot), and 3) diverting 3k mi/yr from my wife's 23MPG run-about to the LEAF. So all in, 15k mi/yr on the LEAF, with downstream positive ripple effects in my driveway.

We enjoy cheap power here in Georgia (12 cents on average throughout the year in my house, with TOU plan available but I'm not modeling to use it), and my $2500 fuel savings assumption is based on 4mi/k. I'm also going to enjoy $500/yr of toll savings on my commute (free HOT lane for EVs).

So with the $3000/yr saved, unless maintenance on this vehicle is more costly than on an ICE vehicle, I plan to have driven for about $50 per month assuming I use the LEAF for 8 years and recover zero residual value. If I get 10 years from my LEAF and no residual, I will have driven completely free for a decade. That is bizarre math, and math that probably only appeals to finance people like me.

Because of this math, I'm wondering why on earth people view the LEAF as expensive. It is potentially completely free transportation (measured as cost of vehicle purchase - fuel savings), leaving me an enormous financial reserve for things like maintenance and battery degradation, should those components become surprisingly expensive (unlikely, given Nissan's desire for this platform to succeed). Although if degradation does occur, my hedge there is to sell the car to an "in-towner" who happily only requires ~50ish miles of capacity. I am a suburbanite 50 mi RT highway commuter.

Buying a LEAF is also a major hedge against inflation, which feels highly likely to me as the path to getting our nation and its homeowners out of their current "upside-down" status. The Arabs will want more fiat currency per barrel as inflation takes a firmer root, ensuring my $28k after-tax LEAF SV becomes the best money I have ever spent.

I'm buying my LEAF with complete confidence in the technology, reminded of my sister's Lexus LS400 model year 2, which ran over 15 years without requiring ANY major maintenance. Toyota over engineered the early Lexi to ensure customer sat, and I'm confident Nissan is doing the same here with the LEAF. Once profit motive enters the picture, the LEAF quality will erode just has quality at Honda and Toyota. (Get your LEAF now.) But I digress.

 

[walterbays]

So with the $3000/yr saved, unless maintenance on this vehicle is more costly than on an ICE vehicle, I plan to have driven for about $50 per month assuming I use the LEAF for 8 years and recover zero residual value. If I get 10 years from my LEAF and no residual, I will have driven completely free for a decade.

Regular maintenance pretty much amounts to rotating the tires and checking the brake fluid. Your worst case scenario might be needing to replace the battery pack, while the rest of the car still had many years of life left. Likely a battery degraded to, say, 60% capacity would not have a zero residual at that point because it would still have many years of life left at an electric utility, buffering power demands and reducing use of expensive peaker plants. So maybe figure average depreciation on the rest of the car, and 50-75% depreciation on the battery?

Buying a LEAF is also a major hedge against inflation, which feels highly likely to me as the path to getting our nation and its homeowners out of their current "upside-down" status. The Arabs will want more fiat currency per barrel as inflation takes a firmer root, ensuring my $28k after-tax LEAF SV becomes the best money I have ever spent.

+1. And I do not hope for the Middle East to go crazy, for Ahmedinejad to launch missles at Israel or vice versa, for a blockade of the Persian Gulf, for a Shiite uprising in Saudi Arabia, etc. I do not wish for gas to go to $6 or $8 per gallon with all the consequent suffering in the US and worldwide. But that really isn't the most stable part of the world on which to base personal or national plans, and it's worth preparing for some bad contingencies.

 

[edatoakrun]

I'm a finance guy. I am taking delivery of my '12 LEAF next week purely for financial reasons...

I'm wondering why on earth people view the LEAF as expensive. It is potentially completely free transportation (measured as cost of vehicle purchase - fuel savings), leaving me an enormous financial reserve for things like maintenance and battery degradation, should those components become surprisingly expensive ...

Buying a LEAF is also a major hedge against inflation, which feels highly likely to me as the path to getting our nation and its homeowners out of their current "upside-down" status. The Arabs will want more fiat currency per barrel as inflation takes a firmer root, ensuring my $28k after-tax LEAF SV becomes the best money I have ever spent...

Agreed.

As a California LEAF buyer, with CARB incentives, and high gas prices/low electricity prices, ICEVs are not even competitive with the much lower LEAF total operating costs. I used the calculator below, to arrive at the cost estimates I posted in the Thread below, back in November 2010.

When I picked up my car last May, I did decide to lease (with maximum down payment) so I will wind up with a few hundred dollars higher LEAF TCO, than posted below.

5,000 miles later, so far, so good...

http://www.befrugal.com/tools/electric-car-calculator/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Entering my own anticipated driving pattern and electricity costs (PG&E off-peak, $.06 per kWH), and entering $4.00 gas, results show total 15 year ownership costs of $32,200 for a LEAF, vs $46,300 for a PRIUS and $51,800 for a Ford (gas) focus.

Outright purchase, with Federal Tax credit and CA $5,000 rebate included, default maintenence cost estimates as provided.

I believe these figures may understate the LEAF ownership cost advantage, as the residual/resale value (which is not included in this calculator) of all EV's will likely be superior to ICEV's.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1725" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[bowthom]

Hello,
What you are seeing as variable charger efficiency is caused by the need to preheat the car in the AM. My charger is pretty consistent at 89% up 2% from when the charger was replaced earlier this year. Carwings always under report's miles driven because, I believe, it is using GPS which cuts off corners depending on bread-crumb placement. As far as I know my car has NOT had the NTB11-041 update. I have received no notice to bring in the car the for update but it is due for the 12 month service in Feb.

Hi bowthom,

Have you seen this thread?

As I posted earlier, Since I had the Carwings update done on 8/3, my Dash and Carwings miles/kWh numbers seem to match.

Even more interestingly, the daily Driving Records/electricity consumption now seem to accurately reflect the kWh delivered from my Modified L2, as best as I can calculate by recharge time.

Has anyone tried a 100% charge to Turtle discharge drive since having the update?

What total electricity consumption (kWh) did carwings report-and do you believe it to accurately reflect total battery capacity?

If you have a meter at the wall, what L2 charging efficiency percentage did it show for your recharge, using the Carwings energy consumption report?

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the looks of your report below, I assume you have not yet had the NTB11-041 update?

It looks like you are seeing variable charging efficiency, of about 80-90%-correct?

Have you tried to use your info to calculate available battery capacity at different battery temperatures?

You seem to report that CW has underreported your "miles driven" by close to the same 2.5% that I also have seen, but it is not a constant for you? Mine is 2.5% off for each individual day of driving.

How close is your "actual" m/kwh to that reported on your screen, as opposed to your dash?

Before you have this update done, you may want to check a day’s odometer miles against the same day's CW “miles driven” daily report, as well as another source, and re-check the same after the update.

I suspect Carwings was actually wrong from delivery, and understated mileage by the same 2.5 % as I have seen since the update, and that I just never noticed this relatively small discrepancy.

This could also explain the similar (identical?) 2.5% discrepancy between “dash” and “screen” miles/kWh, which have remained the same on my car, both before and after the update.

Meaning the higher screen number (4.4 m/kWh screen, 4.3 m/kWh dash, on my car since delivery) rather than the dash, may be correct.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hello,
Here are my numbers.

Sept

Nov

 

[suwaneedad]

Thanks Ed.
Hey can you explain how folks are getting the wall to wheels power use metrics? Is it enabled by a special program out West, that I won't leverage here in Georgia? I won't have any metering specific to the power sent from the unit, through the 18' cable and into the car. Because of that, I'm planning to just measure it based on whatever the Leaf tells me I have used in terms of electricity and adding 15% to it for line loss/etc. Sound about right?

Just had my delivery date move out to week of January 3 (from Dec 23), which is a bummer due to desire to get tax credit into 2011. Might search for an orphan to cure that problem.

 

[keydiver]

As long as I had a VIN, my dealer offered to write up the sale in 2011 if the car was going to land at the dealership a few days too late.

 

[lpickup]

Because of this math, I'm wondering why on earth people view the LEAF as expensive.

I think it's simply because they look at the LEAF and to them it looks like a $15K Versa and suffer a very serious case of sticker shock when the sticker says $39K. Or maybe they are comparing the cost to what they paid for their last car 5-10 years ago. Granted, it is expensive and it does take awhile to earn back that investment, and that's a big up-front investment for a lot of people.

You sound like you've run the numbers similar to this guy: http://jpwhitenissanleaf.com/2011/03/28/nissan-leaf-scrunching-the-numbers/

You may want to check out his spreadsheet as you may have missed a few items for your analysis, like opportunity charging!

 

[lpickup]

Just had my delivery date move out to week of January 3 (from Dec 23), which is a bummer due to desire to get tax credit into 2011. Might search for an orphan to cure that problem.

It's cutting it a bit close, but that change in date is pretty normal in our area (southeast) when your car is on its way to the dealer, and you usually end up with it within a day or two of the original delivery date.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Because of this math, I'm wondering why on earth people view the LEAF as expensive.

same reason people need financial counselors. people can work a calculator, they know how much they make and they know how much their bills are. so why do they need help?

its sticker shock. i see it all the time with another industry. they purchase an item for $150 ignoring the much better item for $200 not realizing the cost difference over the length of the contract is less than insignificant.

take the average car purchase. the difference in monthly payments of $100. that is enough to deter 70% of car buyers to the cheaper option. in the case of standard compact verses EV, most people would save nearly that much money in gas cost reduction (NBC Nightly News last night reported medium household gasoline costs of $4,155 for 2011 which equates to 8.4% of medium income highest since 1981)

in my Prius its an average of 5 cents a mile difference between gas and electricity. for someone driving 1,000 miles a month (below average) that is a savings of $50 a month (Much below average) against a Prius (which gets MUCH higher gas mileage than average car)

ok so that is $50 a month savings over a Prius. but and this is a BIG BUT... the Prius also suffers from sticker shock. my 2010 Prius i took delivery may 2009 with special discount from Toyota ( i was first in WA to get one, VIN $358). AND
WA still allowed hybrid purchases tax free. well, after all that i basically got a $31,000 car (which would have been over 34,000 with taxes) for $28,300 out the door.

my Leaf did not cost me that much. now granted the Prius was cash purchase so no finance charges, but if i cashed my Leaf out today after 11 months of leasing, my cost would just now be passing $28,000.

so, we need to compare gas prices with something that does not have sticker shock. so now we are talking about a $20-22,000 car (remember, gotta pay taxes on this one!) that gets 40-60% less miles on a gallon of gas.

another thing to keep in mind. in winter, that gas car will cost more money to drive the same distance. now that i am well into my 2nd winter on the Leaf, the range is less, ya BUT the cost per mile has barely changed at all. granted, i am not a heat freak and yes i am on my 3rd experimental heater/defrost project. (i guess i could add the cost of those experiments, but seater heater $21.95. portable 12 volt heater $7.99 plus tax or my semi defrost fan thing $14.99 plus tax....well that does add up to a months worth of gas savings...)

but what it boils down to is that the average person is going to save a MINIMUM of $600 a year in gas and most will save over $1,000.

so go back to the NBC News report, now home gas bill is going to be about $3,000.

as for me? i have tracked every penny of my transportation costs since i initially decided to buy my 2004 Prius Thanksgiving weekend 2003. just got gas, so next fillup will be 2012.

cost on 2010 $1041.14
cost on 2006 (sold in April) $58.19 (sold with a near full tank....my bad) from the day we got the Leaf, the 2006 was driven to detailer to be cleaned up for sale and washed. we also went out and started it up every 3-4 days to run it and dry it out (cars do not sit well during Western WA springs!!)

the rest of the transpo cost for 2011 will be about $300 in electricity

this does not include maintenance costs which would make it much more unfair for the poor beleaguered ICE!!

 

[suwaneedad]

Thanks guys. These posts have confirmed that there's not some scary "gotcha" in my math, so thank you.
Like many, I expect to be evangelize about the LEAF's financials once I get friends/neighbors the driving experience (which is a big hook). The math then makes the transition an absolute no-brainer for commuters of 30-60 miles a day. I think low-mileage users won't see the payback and won't 8 years from now be able to look back fondly on their absolutely emissions-free and financially-free transportation. But I will be doing so, and know a lot of ATL-based commuters who are intelligent and will like the math.

It's imperative these LEAFs get traction before the federal tax subsidy ends at 200k units. Must prime the pump/build momentum/etc so that critical mass is achieved. That may prove tougher now, with Nissan shipping LEAFs everywhere (although selfishly that is enabling me to get one in ATL). 3 per month per dealer is not going to get many on the road in ATL anytime soon. Hopefully the Smyrna plant will enable a big volume increase soon.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

there is another caveat of sorts. recent articles state that the cost benefit of volume manufacturing for batteries will not affect car pricing until 2013/2014 model years which will be about the time the fed credits start to be reduced. remember its $7500 for first 200,000, then its reduced, not eliminated

 

[smkettner]

Hey can you explain how folks are getting the wall to wheels power use metrics?

Some have installed a separate electric sub meter for their own use and information.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I charged on 120 for 5 months using Kill a Watt to measure my AC usage. Then I installed a separate meter inline with my 240 volt circuit when I started using the modified EVSE

 

[1jenna1]

It is amazing to hear how little everyone is paying to charge the Leaf. Amazing!

 

[Nekota]

Hey can you explain how folks are getting the wall to wheels power use metrics?

Some have installed a separate electric sub meter for their own use and information.

Another way is to use the car charging timeers at 80% and carwings email messages for charging stopped. The LEAF charges to 10 bars (80%) and then stops and sends an email message with the time the charging stopped. By setting a timer to start at the same time each night, you can then use the stopped time to calculate the minutes of charging and use 3800 watts as the input power to the LEAF's charging system. This will provide a means to implement the power from wall to wheels with no extra instrumentation.