Fast(er) Level 1 Charging on 2013 or EVSEUpgrade?

[BIGneutrino]

We have both a 2012 LEAF SL and a 2013 SL. The one time that both were simultaneously charging at Level 1 it seemed that they were charging at the same speed, or lack thereof. Today, we Level 1 charged on the 2013 for less than two hours, using our new EVSEUpgrade unit. The vehicle was charging at a rate of a battery bar about every 60-75 minutes. This pace was also reflected on Carwings, with 6 hours to complete the charge with 6 battery bars remaining, then an hour or so later, 5 hours to complete with 5 battery bars left.

Is this the work of the 2013 or the EVSEUpgrade?

 

[planet4ever]

I think it takes both of them working together. So far as I know, the 2011-2012 in-car charger was limited to 12A at 120v. Apparently the 2013 in-car charger can handle 16A at 120v, or at least the "6kW" version of the charger can. On the other side of the equation, the EVSE provided with the car has always been limited to 12A.

Phil's latest version of the upgrade, that applies only to the EVSE shipped with 2013 cars, is user-selectable from 6A up to 16A at 120v. To get a 16A charging rate you would need to have both an EVSE that supports 16A at 120v and an in-car charger that supports the same.

16A * 120v = 1920W or 1.9kW. If you are charging from Low Battery Warning (~17%) to 100%, and your battery has a usable capacity of about 21kWh, then you need 17 to 18 kWh at the battery. Due to charging losses (which are higher at 120v), that means you need roughly 22 to 24kWh at the wall. At 1.9kW that should take around 12 hours, give or take an hour. From LBW you are filling 10-11 bars on a 2013, so one bar per hour sounds a bit optimistic, but not too far off.

Ray

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Most household 120v circuits have 15amp breakers so it seems unlikely you could charge at 16a. 12a is the limit.

There are typically a circuit or two in a house with 20a breakers, but thats usually in the kitchen where you're likely to run high power appliances (toasters, toaster ovens, etc).

 

[Ingineer]

There is no speed difference on Level 1 (120 volts) between the original EVSE and the upgraded one. If you were to have a special dedicated 120V outlet capable of 20A, and you had our 20A NEMA 5-20 adapter, you'd be able to charge at 16A.

To get full benefit from the EVSE Upgrade, you need to connect it to a 240V outlet, such as a dryer outlet, then you'll get Level 2 speeds. If you don't have anything other than a standard 120V outlet, unfortunately you'll be relegated to slow Level 1 charging at about 1.2kW (to the battery), which means a full charge takes around 20 hours.

If you don't have a 240V outlet, there are possible other options to get Level 2 charging, such as the use of a "Quick220" device on two 120V outlets, each on different circuits. (and opposite legs)

These Level 1 limits are not imposed by the EVSE or the LEAF, it's a matter of the 120 volt outlet simply not being able to provide higher power levels.

-Phil

 

[Ozarks]

There is no speed difference on Level 1 (120 volts) between the original EVSE and the upgraded one. If you were to have a special dedicated 120V outlet capable of 20A, and you had our 20A NEMA 5-20 adapter, you'd be able to charge at 16A.

To get full benefit from the EVSE Upgrade, you need to connect it to a 240V outlet, such as a dryer outlet, then you'll get Level 2 speeds. If you don't have anything other than a standard 120V outlet, unfortunately you'll be relegated to slow Level 1 charging at about 1.2kW (to the battery), which means a full charge takes around 20 hours.

If you don't have a 240V outlet, there are possible other options to get Level 2 charging, such as the use of a "Quick220" device on two 120V outlets, each on different circuits. (and opposite legs)

These Level 1 limits are not imposed by the EVSE or the LEAF, it's a matter of the 120 volt outlet simply not being able to provide higher power levels.

-Phil

We recently received an upgrade (thanks Phil!). Since I had a 240V 40A line already installed in my garage for a welder, I was able to buy a new L6 wall socket from Amazon for less than $20. I just installed it myself and the car says it will take two hours to charge from 40% to 80%. (I have a 2013 S with the 6.6kW quick charge option.) The EVSE light flashes 20 times, which says that it should be charging at 20 amps. This is a great improvement over the 12 hours or so that would take with 110V and 12 amps.

I also took the power cord off a 240V junked dryer and got an L6 socket to attach to it, so I can quick charge if I need to when I'm away from home and have access to a dryer outlet. The cost for this was $8. It won't be safe to use outside, but most people don't put their dryers outside. I'm just not sure if I can use it with a 240V 20A breaker circuit. (Phil? Anyone?)

IMHO EVSEupgrade is providing an amazingly great service. My life will be simpler now that I have the option of charging in 5 hours or less.

 

[planet4ever]

I also took the power cord off a 240V junked dryer and got an L6 socket to attach to it, so I can quick charge if I need to when I'm away from home and have access to a dryer outlet. The cost for this was $8. It won't be safe to use outside, but most people don't put their dryers outside. I'm just not sure if I can use it with a 240V 20A breaker circuit.

So far as I know, at least in the US, dryer plugs are always either NEMA 10-30 or 14-30. That means they will plug into 30A outlets. I can't imagine that an electrical inspector would ever allow a 30A outlet to be put on a circuit protected by a 20A breaker. So unless you are at the house of a friend who does his own electrical work without following code or getting inspections, I don't see how the problem would arise.

Ray

 

[Ozarks]

Yup. Here in the Ozarks many people do their own electrical work and don't follow code. Lots of places don't require inspections either. So I've seen dryers plugged into a 20A breaker (no idea why someone would do that). I suppose if it doesn't trip they figure it is OK. But still I wouldn't want to plug my car in and burn a friend's house down, that just ain't neighborly.

But I guess my question is, would the evse upgrade sense that 20A or less is available? I thought I saw something that said you should never plug the 6.6kW equipped car with an evseupgrade into an outlet that is less than 30A, but can't remember where.

 

[MikeD]

Ozarks: I don't know of any EVSE (or any device) that is able to detect the rating of the circuit it is connected to -- which is normally determined by the rating of its circuit breaker (or fuse or other "overcurrent device") which have no means (that I am aware of) to communicate its rating to device(s) on that circuit.

That is one important reason why a "cord-and-plug-connected" EVSE plugged into an unknown circuit's receptacle is inherently less safe than one that is "direct wired" (preferably installed by a competent electrician and inspected by a competent inspector) to a known circuit.

In using cord-and-plug-connected EVSEs it helps safe operation a great deal if one can depend on the rating of the receptacle to which it is connected to accurately convey that the rating of that circuit is at least that large as well -- so that ought to be checked out in advance of its use, if at all possible. A good example of that is ensuring that a NEMA 5-20r receptacle is actually on a 20a circuit (and preferably the ONLY outlet, if it is to be used by an EVSE). BTW one important exception to this (possibly because there are no 40a rated receptacles) is a 40a rated circuit is allowed to have a 50a rated receptacle (like a NEMA 6-50r).

 

[wwhitney]

I can't imagine that an electrical inspector would ever allow a 30A outlet to be put on a circuit protected by a 20A breaker.

If the receptacle is the only one on the circuit, then the NEC allows a 30A receptacle on a 20A circuit, 210.21(B)(1). Not sure why you'd want to do this though.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[MikeD]

As far as I know wwhitney is correct: Article 210.21(B)(1) (Outlet Devices -- Receptacles -- Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit) "A single receptacle install on an individual [aka dedicated] branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit. [then two exceptions that do not involve EVSEs]". Although specific individual outlet use also has to satisfy code like Article 210.23 (Permissible Loads) "In no case shall the load exceed the branch-circuit ampere rating....", etc, other NEC legitimate cord-and-plug installations can exist like wwhitney mentioned.

However, the main problem I see with a single, dedicated receptacle whose rating is greater than than its circuit is that you lose that receptacle is able to self-document the circuit's real rating. One can attempt to place a warning sticker at the receptacle notifying a user of the true circuit rating to avoid future confusion, and although good practice (I think), it is not required by the NEC -- and such labeling can eventually degrade and be lost if not renewed over time. This situation is going to become increasingly common, as currently most "30a" cord-and-plug EVSEs use NEMA 6-50r receptacles on a 40a circuit. Perhaps before too much longer "40a" EVSEs will become the predominant EVSE, and cord-and-plug models will use 6-50r receptacles mostly on a 50a circuit -- without any confusion.

 

[Ingineer]

Yup. Here in the Ozarks many people do their own electrical work and don't follow code. Lots of places don't require inspections either. So I've seen dryers plugged into a 20A breaker (no idea why someone would do that). I suppose if it doesn't trip they figure it is OK. But still I wouldn't want to plug my car in and burn a friend's house down, that just ain't neighborly.

But I guess my question is, would the evse upgrade sense that 20A or less is available? I thought I saw something that said you should never plug the 6.6kW equipped car with an evseupgrade into an outlet that is less than 30A, but can't remember where.

Like others have mentioned, it's unlikely you'll find a dryer outlet not capable of 20A. The nameplate on my electric dryer claims 22A, so if that was on a 20A breaker it would likely trip. We do have people using the upgraded unit at 20A on a 20A breaker, but they have installed a special breaker that's rated for 100% continuous duty. The electrical code (NEC) allows exception to the 125% rule if all devices used are specifically rated for 100% continuous load. The reason to do this is if your panel doesn't have enough extra capacity under the rules to handle a 30A circuit (rare).

Bottom line, it's unlikely you'll plug into a dryer outlet that you can't safely pull 20A from. If you are worried, you can always change the amperage on your upgraded unit down to 16A for that session. The best advice is to feel around on all the components and connections once you have been charging for at least 20 minutes. If something gets hot, then you'll know there's an issue. This is good advice to anyone using an unfamiliar outlet for the first time. (even a lowly 120V outlet!)

-Phil

 

[mazdaboi]

Few places I've seen details outlining the faster charging in all 2013 LEAF's on 110/120V

The L2 on the base S was increased from 3.3kWh to 3.6kWh, nice upgrade for the base model.

 

[planet4ever]

There is no faster charging on 120v, nor on 240v for the base S model. The "increase" from 3.3 to 3.6 is only an advertising gimmick. 3.6 kW is what they now say it pulls from the wall, and I think that must be based on an assumption of 220v. In fact US households all have 240v and the charger can pull 3.84 kW. In 2011 and 2012 they advertised the 3.3 kW that the charger delivered to the battery, and that is what it still delivers.

So no change in what the charger can do, only in the way they report the numbers. (The same change happened in the number reporting for the faster charger. The 6.6 kw number refers to power from the wall; only 6.0 kW is delivered to the battery. So it is not quite twice as fast as the 3.3 kW delivered by the old charger.)

Ray

 

[QueenBee]

There is no faster charging on 120v, nor on 240v for the base S model. The "increase" from 3.3 to 3.6 is only an advertising gimmick. 3.6 kW is what they now say it pulls from the wall, and I think that must be based on an assumption of 220v. In fact US households all have 240v and the charger can pull 3.84 kW. In 2011 and 2012 they advertised the 3.3 kW that the charger delivered to the battery, and that is what it still delivers.

The 2013 models limit 120 volt to 16 amp vs the 12 amp that 2011/2012s were limited to though correct?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Telsa chargers will run at 20 amps max on 120 volts.

 

[apvbguy]

Telsa chargers will run at 20 amps max on 120 volts.

that is something, how could a LEAF owner match those levels?

 

[JeremyW]

Telsa chargers will run at 20 amps max on 120 volts.

that is something, how could a LEAF owner match those levels?

Hook up a Brusa, run it at 8 amps for 20 total. You could even run it at 12 amps and pull 24 amps from a TT-30 (120v 30 A travel trailer aka 30 amp service at RV parks). Even better if you could disable the original charger during L1 so that you could shutdown the pumps which are a few hundred watts of overhead.

 

[planet4ever]

There is no faster charging on 120v, nor on 240v for the base S model.

The 2013 models limit 120 volt to 16 amp vs the 12 amp that 2011/2012s were limited to though correct?

I think the answer is "maybe, and no". I can't find any reference to 16A in the 2013 Nissan LEAF Press Kit. In fact they continue to list a 21 hour charging time there, whether you have the "3.6 kW" or "6.6 kW" charger. The Owners Manual for 2013 has the same graphic showing 21 hours as the Owners Manual for 2011. Wouldn't they have to supply the "trickle charge" cord with a 20A plug (rotated blade) if they pulled 16A?

However, Phil's EVSEupgrade website says that with the upgraded EVSE : "The unit still retains the ability to be used on a standard household outlet, and then charges at up to 16 amps." I'm not sure whether he means that the 2013 LEAF charger is now capable of 16A at 120v (even though Nissan doesn't supply anything to support that), or just that if you had a charger in some car that supported 16A then his EVSE would supply it. I believe in point of fact that, except for the first 12A version, his EVSEs have always signaled to the car that they support 16A at 120v.

Ray

 

[QueenBee]

Wouldn't they have to supply the "trickle charge" cord with a 20A plug (rotated blade) if they pulled 16A?

Nissan does not have to supply a 16 amp EVSE for the car's charger to support 120 volt 16 amp but yes, if they wanted to supply a 16 amp EVSE it would need a 20 amp plug.

However, Phil's EVSEupgrade website says that with the upgraded EVSE : "The unit still retains the ability to be used on a standard household outlet, and then charges at up to 16 amps." I'm not sure whether he means that the 2013 LEAF charger is now capable of 16A at 120v (even though Nissan doesn't supply anything to support that), or just that if you had a charger in some car that supported 16A then his EVSE would supply it. I believe in point of fact that, except for the first 12A version, his EVSEs have always signaled to the car that they support 16A at 120v.
y

The 120 volt 12 amp EVSE that is included with all US LEAFs will only allow charging at 12 amps because that is what its pilot signal sends. If you hook up a EVSE on 120 volts that has a higher pilot (Say an OpenEVSE or one of Phil's upgraded units) the 2011/2012 LEAFs will still only charge at 12 amps because the charger is limiting to 12 amps. Phil is the only place I've heard that the 2013's are supporting 16 amp. He says a similar thing earlier in this thread I believe.

 

[apvbguy]

Phil's EVSE charges my LEAF from 15% to 100% in around 6 hours, good enough for my current needs, I am not someone trying to turn my LEAF into a long ranged vehicle.