How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[CarZin]

I agree. I can't, at this time, recommend anyone in South Florida buy a LEAF due to our consistently warm temperatures.

Come on over to the dark side and buy a Volt I traded my Volt with a Leaf owner for 24 hours. I have come to two realizations.

1) I could absolutely get by with the vast majority of my needs with a Leaf
2) The amount of gasoline I have burned in almost 6 months in the Volt (13.1 with 10,200 miles) is not enough to make me feel as though being a purist is worth it, not do I think it would offend the vast majority of Leaf owners that just don't want to burn any gas.

I am lucky to have the ability to charge at work, but I am getting 40-45 miles every day, except in the absolute cold of winter when I am getting 33-35.

I think Nissan has hurt itself in several ways.
1) No capacity warranty on the battery like the Volt.
2) Allowing the users access to the totality of the battery and not allowing for a degredation reserve
3) No thermal management- don't really know how much difference this would make in the Phoenix area

The Volt has had its share of issues, but GM seemed to make some good decisions regarding battery management so the car would be well under the way to general acceptance before anyone starts seeing any range degredation, and the nature of the Volt, the degredation doesn't mean much.

Don't hate on me, please. I am on a LOT of plug in vehicle committees, and am VERY committed in making all electric vehicles accepted. I am pissed at Nissan, because I think all electric vehicles will be tainted by Nissan's battery failures, if this ends up being a bigger issue. The public has proven it doesnt have the ability to understand technical details.

 

[scottf200]

EdmondLEAF,
Can you expand on your post that all OKC leafs are in garages and you are waiting on Nissan to tell you guys what to do? You also said CS is not helpful. That is the dealers Customer Services??? You indicated that if temp is over 120F then do not drive. Confused by this as this must be car "temp"? OKC is in 3 digits I see just like Chicagoland is supposed to be Thu.

Looks like your post disappeared.

I did see this in another thread so it helps explain the above:

you may see temp bar 7 tomorrow and later during summer, I am not to trill about it, and in fact Leaf is in the garage when more than 100F, because road temp is 130F. Remember 120F and 24h void battery warranty

 

[Stoaty]

I have come to two realizations.

1) I could absolutely get by with the vast majority of my needs with a Leaf
2) The amount of gasoline I have burned in almost 6 months in the Volt (13.1 with 10,200 miles) is not enough to make me feel as though being a purist is worth it, not do I think it would offend the vast majority of Leaf owners that just don't want to burn any gas.

Clearly with your driving pattern the Volt is a great choice. The reasons I didn't buy the Volt:

1) Already have a gas burner for long trips, so didn't want another engine to maintain
2) I wanted additional electric range

I think Nissan has hurt itself in several ways.
1) No capacity warranty on the battery like the Volt.
2) Allowing the users access to the totality of the battery and not allowing for a degredation reserve
3) No thermal management- don't really know how much difference this would make in the Phoenix area

Agree 100%.

Don't hate on me, please. I am on a LOT of plug in vehicle committees, and am VERY committed in making all electric vehicles accepted. I am pissed at Nissan, because I think all electric vehicles will be tainted by Nissan's battery failures, if this ends up being a bigger issue.

Wouldn't think of hating on you, even if you weren't on those committees. The Volt is saving a signficant amount of gasoline from being burned, which is what we all want. A co-worker asked about Leaf and Volt. After hearing her needs, I recommended the Volt. The right tool for the right job.

 

[RegGuheert]

I agree 100% with what Stoaty said (who is agreeing with CarZin).

Plus:

The reasons I didn't buy the Volt:

1) Already have a gas burner for long trips, so didn't want another engine to maintain
2) I wanted additional electric range

3) The back seats. Too few, too small and glass overhead.
4) $10,000. The difference in price between a 2011 demo LEAF SL versus a loaded Volt when I was shopping.

I will say we need EVs without TMS because it is more complicated than what many EVs need. Not with the chemistry in the LEAF, but with something more heat tolerant.

 

[TomT]

I would have bought a Volt rather than a Leaf except for four things:

1) Cost.
2) Not enough room in back for things we carry (not people).
3) No car pool sticker. (This is, of course, no longer an issue.)
4) I wanted to get rid of all the ICE complexities.

If there was a CUV version of the Volt available today, we'd buy one in an instant. As it is, it appears we will have to go elsewhere to fulfill that need this year...

Come on over to the dark side and buy a Volt I traded my Volt with a Leaf owner for 24 hours.

 

[skippycoyote]

I agree. If those who have lost a bar are concerned, they should voice their concerns to Nissan. This forum is great for sharing experiences, giving suggestions, organizing events, and telling stories. But, it is just that...a community forum. This forum did let some people know that they are not the only ones experiencing capacity issues (and this is not the only thread about it). If you want something done, you need to let Nissan know formally. I would not count on them doing anything just because some folks on a community forum are complaining to each other. There have been some good discussions on this thread about people sharing what they have done and what they have tried...but most of it is just complain, complain, complain! This might be the teacher in my talking, but maybe you should do something about it!

 

[DesertDenizen]

Nissan Leaf on Facebook posted a video of a tv interview promoting EVs and asked for comments. I posted how about someone from Nissan addressing the loss of capacity bars in hot climates. So far silence.

 

[Stoaty]

I absolutely believe that everyone who has lost a bar should call the 1-877-664-2738 and have them open a case number. I did that last week and happened to talk to Wesley (X457250). He was very nice, listened carefully and listened to all of my issues. He called me back a couple of days later and basically said that "Nissan isn't hearing from many people about this problem."

Sounds like they are suggesting this is not normal, since it is happening to so few people. Did you ask him if Nissan is going to fix this rare problem?

 

[djchrispaul]

I have been posting about the loss of range bars in this topic, so today I took care of my problem to give me peace of mind, this is what I did.
Originally I had purchase my leaf on a 6year finance, so as I was worried about being stuck with a low range purchased vehicle, I went to my Nissan dealer, Palm Springs Nissan and swapped out my purchased 2011 leaf for a new 2012 leased vehicle for the same payments, so now it's their problem if after 3 years the battery is degraded.
I should have leased from day 1 but didn't because I like to own a car.
I have peace of mind but will now be able to monitor from day 1 which is today!
I put down $2500 but am fine with that because I had got the $2500 from the California rebate, and will transfer that rebate to the new car, I will not of course ask for another rebate, that's wrong!
So for me the only nuisance was the 4 hours it takes to buy a new car!
Still love he car and will support the technology but will sleep a bit better!

 

[DesertDenizen]

Check out Nissan Leaf on Facebook, I am having an exchange with a Nissan rep on the capacity bar issue.

 

[Volusiano]

Great idea ravi100!

I absolutely believe that everyone who has lost a bar should call the 1-877-664-2738 and have them open a case number. I did that last week and happened to talk to Wesley (X457250). He was very nice, listened carefully and listened to all of my issues. He called me back a couple of days later and basically said that "Nissan isn't hearing from many people about this problem."

I think one reason Nissan has been quoted as saying they only know of a few cases of battery capacity loss may be because us "bardroppers" aren't registering our concerns. I don't blame Nissan for not acknowledging that there are 20 bardroppers if only 5 have contacted them. As far as they are concerned the higher numer is hearsay. If everyone lets them know, then they have to acknowledge it.

Will it do any good to lodge formal complaints? I can't promise that it will, but it certainly will do no harm. Be prepared to articulate your complaint and to tell them what you want done ("I want my money back"/"I want a new battery"/"I want an answer from Nissan"/whatever).

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I agree. If those who have lost a bar are concerned, they should voice their concerns to Nissan. This forum is great for sharing experiences, giving suggestions, organizing events, and telling stories. But, it is just that...a community forum. This forum did let some people know that they are not the only ones experiencing capacity issues (and this is not the only thread about it). If you want something done, you need to let Nissan know formally. I would not count on them doing anything just because some folks on a community forum are complaining to each other. There have been some good discussions on this thread about people sharing what they have done and what they have tried...but most of it is just complain, complain, complain! This might be the teacher in my talking, but maybe you should do something about it!

I agree that we should do something about it. But I chose not to waste my time to lodge a complaint with Nissan just to get a blow off statement from them ("Nissan isn't hearing from too many people about this problem.")

If Nissan has issued a more sincere response instead of a blow-off statement, I would have been the next one in line lodging a complaint. If Nissan is sincere enough and genuinely concerned enough about the issue, as soon as they hear about the issue, they would have sent out an email or a survey to all hot weather state owners to find out how many of them were affected. I would also be the first in line to fill out every single questionnaire they want to ask in their survey.

But you've got to believe by now that they already know (even before any of us know), don't really need to hear from owners, and apparently, nor do they want to hear from owners.

You may think that this is just a simple community forum with very little power and just some folks complaining to each other, but I think it's the contrary. I think that this forum has a lot of weight because the EV technology is so new that anybody who contemplate buying into it wants to make sure they assess all the risks and make informed decisions. In this day and age, when people want to buy something, they go online and google and research their product to death before making a decision. And the EV is not a small purchase nor is it a familiar product. It's a huge investment that also requires a change in the way people deal with their driving and refueling habits. People think hard before jumping in and commit. I remember spending a lot of time on this forum myself before I decided to go for a Leaf. Without information I was able to get from this forum, I would not have made the purchase decision I did and would still be sitting on the fence.

So now my choice to do something about this issue is not to lodge a complaint with Nissan just so I can get their blow-off kiss. My choice is to use this forum to let potential new buyers who lurk the forum know about the issue so they will think twice about making a Leaf purchase, especially if they're from the hot states. I think this is the only effective way to force Nissan to face and deal with the issue. Not by going after Nissan for their blow-off kiss, but by going after potential Leaf buyers to let THEM know.

I also don't need Nissan to read my comments here in this community forum. I just need potential Leaf buyers to be reading this community forum. And I know they do, because I did.

Nissan may not care about existing owners' opinions, but I'm sure Nissan cares about potential buyers' opinions. But potential buyers' opinions are going to be swayed by existing owners' opinions, where else but in this forum?

 

[mkjayakumar]

What stops from you doing both? Lodging a formal complaint may be useless, but not detrimental.

 

[shrink]

So now my choice to do something about this issue is not to lodge a complaint with Nissan just so I can get their blow-off kiss. My choice is to use this forum to let potential new buyers who lurk the forum know about the issue so they will think twice about making a Leaf purchase, especially if they're from the hot states. I think this is the only effective way to force Nissan to face and deal with the issue. Not by going after Nissan to let them know (they already know), but by going after the people who are thinking about buying the Leaf to let THEM know.

I can appreciate your well-reasoned opinion Volusiano, but I'm going to have to disagree. If you don't want to lodge a complaint, that's fine, but I would hope you considering doing so behalf of other affected individuals. I lost a capacity bar and I've actually dealt with it in a way that no longer has me worried (more on that in a later thread), but I did file a formal complaint. It was only a 5 minute phone call.

I don't think other buyers would be as thorough and informed as you prior to purchase. In fact, I would argue that this is a small, albeit, influential community and that the majority of LEAF owners either don't know about this site, or don't care and are just enjoying the car. It's a great place to learn and share ideas, but I doubt most potential LEAF buyers research this site as thoroughly prior to purchase. The more informed ones certainly do, but I think the message board subset of the general car buying population is small, and that most car buyers are much more influenced by the marketing.

With that said, I would think potential LEAF buyers would be more easily informed of our issue if, in reviewing reliability reports for the car, the car review websites note that there have been a number of formal complaints about the LEAF in warm climates after the first year. I would imagine Nissan must report those complaint numbers to whoever it is that gathers such data.

By limiting your concerns only to this message board, it seems to lend Nissan credibility in its claim that "only a few isolated cases" have been reported and that the majority of drivers, including those in warm climates, have expressed no complaints about the LEAF.

If you choose to file a complaint, I also think you also add some strength to the arguments of other concerned owners who hope Nissan will eventually respond in some favorable way. There seems to be a reasonable argument that buyers were not fully advised of the risks of accelerated battery capacity loss in certain regions. If you remain silent, Nissan can credibly count your car as trouble free.

However, I do respect your decision and opinion if you wish to limit your concerns here.

 

[Volusiano]

What stops from you doing both? Lodging a formal complaint may be useless, but not detrimental.

It's not detrimental but it's useless like you said. And it's a waste of time. I'd rather wasting my time complaining on this forum. At least there's a better chance that potential buyers read my complaint on this forum compared to Nissan wanting to hear my complaint.

Besides, I already complained at the dealership with the Nissan service specialist when I took my battery in for the 1 year inspection. And I already got my blow-off kiss there. How would lodging complaining again to the Nissan hotline be any different? Don't need to get the blow-off kiss twice.

 

[Volusiano]

With that said, I would think potential LEAF buyers would be more easily informed of our issue if, in reviewing reliability reports for the car, the car review websites note that there have been a number of formal complaints about the LEAF in warm climates after the first year. I would imagine Nissan must report those complaint numbers to whoever it is that gathers such data.

If for a minute I think that Nissan would disclose their own complaint statistics to the public, I wouldn't mind wasting the 5 minutes to lodge my complaint to them. But I highly doubt this. There's nothing that would require Nissan to divulge such information if they deem it private and confidential to their company.

Having said this, I do respect your perspective and others on this forum and if you think it benefits everyone for me to join the cause and formally lodge a complaint with Nissan, I will do so. I just want to say my piece about what I think of it, but I'm not 100% opposed to doing it on principle or anything like that. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

 

[cwerdna]

What stops from you doing both? Lodging a formal complaint may be useless, but not detrimental.

It's not detrimental but it's useless like you said. And it's a waste of time. I'd rather wasting my time complaining on this forum. At least there's a better chance that potential buyers read my complaint on this forum compared to Nissan wanting to hear my complaint.

Besides, I already complained at the dealership with the Nissan service specialist when I took my battery in for the 1 year inspection. And I already got my blow-off kiss there. How would lodging complaining again to the Nissan hotline be any different? Don't need to get the blow-off kiss twice.

I can't speak to Nissan's practices, but for the Prius, we've sort have been encouraged to log a formal complaint by the (at the time) Prius Product Manager (a marketing guy).

See posts at http://priuschat.com/threads/toyota-unveils-entune-app-ready-sync-fighter-at-ces.88347/#post-1239131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-brake-recall-%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%80%9C-a-little-more-information.76158/page-2#post-1061546" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-brake-recall-%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%80%9C-a-little-more-information.76158/page-3#post-1064441" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

To quote from one of the posts:

Me and Erica? We're "just Marketing" people perusing the boards. Our ability to collect information from owners here is limited to qualitative data - quantitative is either impossible or very unreliable, and therefore not suitable for satisfying regulatory requirements. It's much better for things like "do I need a third cupholder in the front?" and much worse for things like "my car doesn't feel like it's braking right." So is this statement CYA? If that's the term you prefer, ok.

If you care about this subject, you can listen to http://whatdrives.us/podcast/episode-50-special-guest-doug-coleman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Just skip to the 47 minute mark and listen for maybe the next 8 minutes or so...

That said, Prius doesn't have any sort of thing like Carwings nor any sort of mandatory battery checks. For the non-PHEV Priuses, I know of no HV battery condition check that dealers perform (and then upload the results for corporate).

 

[Stoaty]

It's not detrimental but it's useless like you said. And it's a waste of time. I'd rather wasting my time complaining on this forum. At least there's a better chance that potential buyers read my complaint on this forum compared to Nissan wanting to hear my complaint.

I urge you to make the report to Nissan also. It probably won't make any difference, but the time required is minimal. It's the only thing you can do, since the dealers often don't know much, and this customer service is set up specifically for the Leaf. I would also encourage you--after you are told that there are so few reports of this problem--to ask what Nissan will be doing about this rare (abnormal) event. Again, I don't expect this to help, but still think it is worth doing. Imagine if Nissan is getting hundreds of these formal complaints (which may very well happen in the future). I think that would get their attention.

 

[surfingslovak]

I urge you to make the report to Nissan also. It probably won't make any difference, but the time required is minimal. It's the only thing you can do, since the dealers often don't know much, and this customer service is set up specifically for the Leaf. I would also encourage you--after you are told that there are so few reports of this problem--to ask what Nissan will be doing about this rare (abnormal) event. Again, I don't expect this to help, but still think it is worth doing. Imagine if Nissan is getting hundreds of these formal complaints (which may very well happen in the future). I think that would get their attention.

I would urge you to consider what Stoaty said above. Please have a look at an older post by OrientExpress as well. As already mentioned, if my data is any indication, Nissan is following this discussion on an ongoing basis. There are many other people reading here, so please don't think for a second that this is a private thread in an obscure online venue. Whatever you might think of your dealer, it would be great if we all approached this issue constructively.

 

[QueenBee]

I put down $2500 but am fine with that because I had got the $2500 from the California rebate, and will transfer that rebate to the new car, I will not of course ask for another rebate, that's wrong!

Just thinking out loud but is there an official process for transferring the rebate? If there isn't I have no idea if they are keeping track but seems like it might be safer to offer them the $2,500 and apply for the rebate on the new car. I actually am surprised there is the 36 month ownership requirement since AFAIC if the goal is to promote EV ownership then they should not care since the rebate will be factored into the used price.

 

[adric22]

I'm curious about something, but it is hard to explain my question. Is the capacity loss expected to be a certain percentage each year of the original capacity, or a certain percentage of the remaining capacity? For example, to simplify the math. Lets assume you are expected to lose 10% each year. Would that mean an original range of 100 miles, then 90 the next year, then 80, then 70, then 60, etc... Or would it be 100 miles the first year, then 90, then 81, then 72.9, then 65.61, then 59, etc.