How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity?

[EdmondLeaf]

Okay, a week ago I was concerned because my range figures kept going down, down, down. As of this morning I have officially lost my first bar. Garry had told me to expect it any day, since my SOC was just above 79%, and he was right. I'm pretty pissed about this and I will be calling Nissan today to have a case opened. I really hate this, since I love the idea of electric cars and don't want to see them get more bad press, but a car that only had about 80 miles of real-world range to begin with cannot afford to lose this kind of range so quickly. Disappointed.

I am sorry to hear that, right now temps here not that far from yours, but drop a bit more at night. Not driving Leaf now, will be nice to know more from Nissan concerning car care during hot weather.

 

[KJD]

How many miles on your car?

Okay, a week ago I was concerned because my range figures kept going down, down, down. As of this morning I have officially lost my first bar. Garry had told me to expect it any day, since my SOC was just above 79%, and he was right. I'm pretty pissed about this and I will be calling Nissan today to have a case opened. I really hate this, since I love the idea of electric cars and don't want to see them get more bad press, but a car that only had about 80 miles of real-world range to begin with cannot afford to lose this kind of range so quickly. Disappointed.

Called Nissan and talked to Ricky and had him give me a case number.

 

[Stoaty]

Okay, a week ago I was concerned because my range figures kept going down, down, down. As of this morning I have officially lost my first bar. Garry had told me to expect it any day, since my SOC was just above 79%, and he was right. I'm pretty pissed about this and I will be calling Nissan today to have a case opened.

Sorry to hear that. Added to Wiki capacity bar loss list.

 

[Volusiano]

I just received the following solicitation from Nissan via email to fill out their 1 year survey. Of course I told them what I think about the battery capacity loss issue going on in Phoenix and other hot weather states.

I wonder if others who have had their 1 year anniversary date much earlier than me also received this 1 year survey shortly after their 1 year anniversary date or not? I'm just curious to know whether this is just a routine 1 year anniversary survey or whether it has something to do with the capacity issue going on. I'm asking this because of all the talks here about calling Nissan to lodge a formal complaint about the battery capacity issue, I wonder why nobody ever mentioned about filling out a 1 year anniversary survey with Nissan to let them know about the battery capacity issue.

I find it interesting that on the same day I called in to log my complaint with Nissan, I received a solicitation from them for a 1 year anniversary survey, and nobody else has mentioned about a survey. My 1 year anniversary date is in early June, so if 1 year anniversary surveys were set up automatically by Nissan, you'd think that people would receive such a survey shortly after their anniversary date and not almost a month later. But maybe I'm reading a little too much into it.

Still, the big curious question is whether anybody else received their 1 year anniversary survey recently?

Nissan Header
Dear owner,

About 6 months ago, we sent you a survey to better understand how well Nissan has met your ownership expectations related to the Nissan LEAF you purchased a year ago. If you took the opportunity to complete that survey, we thank you for your feedback and comments.

On behalf of Nissan, we appreciate the trust you've placed in us and would like to congratulate you on completing your first year of LEAF ownership.

Quality and customer satisfaction are our primary goals at Nissan, and your opinion on how we're doing in these areas is very important to us. That is why we are sending you this survey about your ongoing ownership experience with the Nissan LEAF, the first mass-produced all-electric vehicle.

We encourage you to complete the survey online by clicking on the "START" below It should take about 10 minutes to complete.

Thanks again for choosing Nissan and for taking the time to share your feedback with us.

Sincerely,

Jon Brancheau
Vice President
Nissan Division, Marketing
Nissan North America, Inc.

 

[Nubo]

I disagree about the need for "formal complaints" to let Nissan "know" about the issue.

From the mandatory battery checks, Nissan have more detailed battery data on cars in the field than all of us put together.

Surely they know.

 

[TickTock]

<snip>
Still, the big curious question is whether anybody else received their 1 year anniversary survey recently?
<snip>

I, too, got the invitation to fill out the survey shortly after my 1 year "checkup." And I, too, highlighted the lack of communication about how Nissan plans to deal with the Arizona issue as the number one concern preventing me from "recommending a Leaf [or any other Nissan product] to a friend."

 

[EVDRIVER]

I disagree about the need for "formal complaints" to let Nissan "know" about the issue.

From the mandatory battery checks, Nissan have more detailed battery data on cars in the field than all of us put together.

Surely they know.

Yes, they do. On the other hand there is a measure of how many people care about the issue or have noticed, tow separate variables that motivate action.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Unless they have to have the whole battery capacity during the lease to make the Leaf work for them, I am not sure why they would be shy about leasing. Buying is a different story. What was their thought process?

- lack of enthusiasm of driving a vehicle with a well known major problem pertaining to this area
- uncertainty of range they would get after the first summer, 2nd and 3rd. Concern that they would never get out of range anxiety.

 

[jspearman]

I disagree about the need for "formal complaints" to let Nissan "know" about the issue.

From the mandatory battery checks, Nissan have more detailed battery data on cars in the field than all of us put together.

Surely they know.

I didn't really want to call, but I'm glad I did. He was a nice guy, but was nervous when I told him I was from Phoenix and was now below 80% of capacity and had lost a bar. He prefaced almost all his statements with, "I'm not trying to be combative, but . . . " It's obvious they've had a meeting on this issue and been coached on what to say in response. He asked how many temp bars I've been seeing and said I should let the car cool down below 6 bars before charging. The only problem is, I live in Phoenix and I don't have an 8-car air-conditioned garage in Paradise Valley. His other helpful suggestion was to park in the shade. Thanks?

I encourage anyone having this issue to call and file an official complaint.

 

[shrink]

[I didn't really want to call, but I'm glad I did. He was a nice guy, but was nervous when I told him I was from Phoenix and was now below 80% of capacity and had lost a bar. He prefaced almost all his statements with, "I'm not trying to be combative, but . . . " It's obvious they've had a meeting on this issue and been coached on what to say in response. He asked how many temp bars I've been seeing and said I should let the car cool down below 6 bars before charging. The only problem is, I live in Phoenix and I don't have an 8-car air-conditioned garage in Paradise Valley. His other helpful suggestion was to park in the shade. Thanks?

Sounds like the guy I talked to last week. Thanks for calling. You, too, Volusiano. I know it seemed futile, but let's hope not.

What I find irritating is that consensus seems to be building that 7-8 bars is not great for the battery. However, from the owner's manual, as long as you're not too low and in the Blue or too high and in the Red, the battery temperature is considered "normal."

Sort of like capacity loss, I suppose...

 

[DaveEV]

He asked how many temp bars I've been seeing and said I should let the car cool down below 6 bars before charging. The only problem is, I live in Phoenix and I don't have an 8-car air-conditioned garage in Paradise Valley. His other helpful suggestion was to park in the shade. Thanks?

Below 6 bars? That's below 75F which isn't going to happen in the summer in most parts of the country, especially if you park in the garage. If your garage is insulated, you can forget it.

Even here in San Diego where it's currently 75-80F max during the day and 55-60F min at night, my car is spending most of the time with 6 bars. About half the time it doesn't get to 5 bars before I leave in the morning. If I leave the side door of the garage open until 12-1am that helps, but who's wants to do that? Unless I add some sort of forced ventilation to my garage it won't dip much below 70F at night which simply isn't enough to cool the pack down to 5 bars especially with a couple hours of charging.

 

[shrink]

Below 6 bars? That's below 75F which isn't going to happen in the summer in most parts of the country, especially if you park in the garage. If your garage is insulated, you can forget it.

Even here in San Diego where it's currently 75-80F max during the day and 55-60F min at night, my car is spending most of the time with 6 bars. About half the time it doesn't get to 5 bars before I leave in the morning. If I leave the side door of the garage open until 12-1am that helps, but who's wants to do that? Unless I add some sort of forced ventilation to my garage it won't dip much below 70F at night which simply isn't enough to cool the pack down to 5 bars especially with a couple hours of charging.

If there were an active TMS, we wouldn't be so much at the mercy of the ambient temperature. I can hear the my Volt's TMS running regularly in the hot Phoenix garage, while the poor LEAF seems to sit and bake. After reading the threads here, I started setting just an end timer so an 80% charge is achieved by 7am. There does not seem to be much else Phoenix LEAF owners can reasonably do.

 

[FairwoodRed]

I can hear the my Volt's TMS running regularly in the hot Phoenix garage, while the poor LEAF seems to sit and bake.

I laughed at what I read into this statement... That your Volt is killing your Leaf! The GM conspiracy to kill electric cars continues!!!

I disagree about the need for "formal complaints" to let Nissan "know" about the issue.

From the mandatory battery checks, Nissan have more detailed battery data on cars in the field than all of us put together.

Surely they know.

There is no substitute for a formal complaint to Nissan. It changes what they know privately to what they must acknowledge they know publicly. Also it protects your ability to pursue Lemon Law and Mediation actions in the future.

Here is a good example. My old Toyota truck had a design flaw in the spindle bushings during cold weather. I took it in for service to “correct the symptoms” while Toyota said they were working on a redesign. My friend, with a similar truck, did not because he didn’t see the need – Toyota was aware and working on it. A little over three years later, a fix was found and my truck repaired. My friend’s truck? Nope. Since it had not been reported during the warranty period, it was not eligible for this costly rebuild of the front end. He tried all kinds of avenues to get it covered, but even the state’s Ombudsman said that without a prior formal report to Toyota there was nothing to be done.

So I strongly echo the recommendation to take it to your dealer, and if no joy, then file a formal report with Nissan.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I haven't been following all this discussion, there's been so much of it, so maybe this is repeating something that's already been said. IMO we early Leaf buyer are as much lab rats as we are customers. If some percentage of cars lose some percentage of their range Nissan is not going to go out and start replacing batteries. They want to see what happens next. Out of 20,000 cars in fifty states, various average temperatures, miles driven, charging habits, there is much to be learned from this data.

Is there anyone who has lost a huge percentage of their range, say > 30% in the first year? I would think a really acute problem would be addressed, but for just losing one bar, you don't want to disturb the experiment.

 

[scottf200]

I haven't been following all this discussion, there's been so much of it, so maybe this is repeating something that's already been said. IMO we early Leaf buyer are as much lab rats as we are customers. If some percentage of cars lose some percentage of their range Nissan is not going to go out and start replacing batteries. They want to see what happens next. Out of 20,000 cars in fifty states, various average temperatures, miles driven, charging habits, there is much to be learned from this data.

Is there anyone who has lost a huge percentage of their range, say > 30% in the first year? I would think a really acute problem would be addressed, but for just losing one bar, you don't want to disturb the experiment.

I'm sure purchasers will not like that analogy very much.

Leases they don't care as much as long as it last for their typical driving throughout their lease period. I hope to heck that Nissan handles the those leased vehicles well. Wonder if they'll replace the battery/cells or just have a disclaimer.

This person just lost another bar. From the other thread:

Wow, I just realized according to the gauge, my capacity has dropped 6.25% in exactly 6 weeks to the day. That's a rather alarming rate. (2nd bar turns off at 78.75%). I haven't even driven 1000 miles since losing the first bar.

I do still charge to 100% but I changed my end time so it reaches 100% just before I leave in the morning, and 80% on the weekends.

 

[WetEV]

IMO we early Leaf buyer are as much lab rats as we are customers.

I'm sure purchasers will not like that analogy very much.

Like it or not, it is also true for the Tesla and Volt and them new fangled internal combustion engines.

Know that nothing is risk free. Remember that.

My attitude to no thermal management for the Leaf is different, as the climate is cooler and more stable in the great NorthWet.

I'm not sure if I'd take the risk of a Leaf in warmer climates, especially after it is starting to look not so good. But in many ways, it really is still too early to tell. The initial loss rate is higher for batteries than later loss rates, sometimes much higher, at least in my experience as an electrical engineer. Will the loss rate flatten out?

Is this a small fraction of cells in the pack, for a small fraction of cars, and only in hot places? If so, then a pack rebuild for the affected cars might solve the problem at fairly low cost.

Or will every car in hot places lose battery capacity quickly?

No one really knows.

From a fellow lab rat. "Squeek Squeek" Remember that nothing is risk free.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm sure purchasers will not like that analogy very much.

Leases they don't care as much as long as it last for their typical driving throughout their lease period. I hope to heck that Nissan handles the those leased vehicles well. Wonder if they'll replace the battery/cells or just have a disclaimer.

This person just lost another bar. From the other thread:

Wow, I just realized according to the gauge, my capacity has dropped 6.25% in exactly 6 weeks to the day. That's a rather alarming rate. (2nd bar turns off at 78.75%). I haven't even driven 1000 miles since losing the first bar.

I do still charge to 100% but I changed my end time so it reaches 100% just before I leave in the morning, and 80% on the weekends.

I saw that. Nissan will no doubt be very interested. Now let's see if he loses a third, and a fourth, or maybe it stops here. That stats will be very interesting, but disconcerting if you're one of the stats.

My guess is that Nissan will make good on it for anyone who really comes out badly in this, but they need to see how it plays out. Who knows, maybe EVs just aren't ready for prime time in the really hot weather states. The remedy might be to buy back the cars in some areas, of offer to exchange for a gas vehicle.

 

[thankyouOB]

We are beta testers. I agree and knew it when I bought early to get in on the rebates and tax credits.
There was also some word that extremes in temperature -- owing to AC and heating -- would affect range, though I am unsure if that extended to issues about battery life in high heat.

 

[shrink]

We are beta testers.

I disagree. If we are beta testers then the car would be considered a test model. They sold us a production model of which we are early adopters.

 

[SanDust]

A little over three years later, a fix was found and my truck repaired. My friend’s truck? Nope. Since it had not been reported during the warranty period, it was not eligible for this costly rebuild of the front end. He tried all kinds of avenues to get it covered, but even the state’s Ombudsman said that without a prior formal report to Toyota there was nothing to be done.

The battery warranty is for eight years. No reason to rush.