Nissan LEAF / NissanConnect EV severe security vulnerability

[TimLee]

Nissan's never ending complete incompetence is mind boggling :roll: :shock: :?

Notified on January 22 of the complete lack of security in the API they do nothing other than ask the security consultant to keep the info secret.

Once the info gets out they shut down the API but provide no notification other than on the web page.

I asked service department about it and they had no idea. Thought maybe the 2G service was shut down.

Come on Nissan.
You could at least inform the dealers.
And should have notified all LEAF drivers like you did for the future upgrade option.

Sheer out an out incompetence :roll: :shock: :?

 

[baumgrenze]

Thanks to everyone for their input on why 'telematics' is important to them.

We use our Leaf for local travel and our 2004 Prius for longer trips. The Leaf adds about 7500 miles/year and the Prius far fewer, 95% of our driving being local and inside a 30 mile radius circle. The actual miles are, of course, more as we do not fly in straight lines. We hope for many more years of faithful service from our Leaf. We've only used the 'where can we charge' feature twice since buying the car and charged remotely only once.

We normally charge to 80% and use the onboard charging timer. We get no 'off-peak' electric rate break, so we charge when the dash says a 240V charge will take over an hour, certainly if over 1.5 hours. Does the onboard timer depend on the AT&T 2G service? I hope not.

Our Mediterranean climate does not require heating the Li-ion battery and/or pre-warming/pre-cooling the car. Our EVProject Blink is now a 'dumb terminal' since the SD chip with the software quit, so perhaps we might use the remote sensing of the charging process but the blue lights on the dash also work.

Help me see if I've overlooked where telematics might otherwise be useful or important.

I'm sorry to read that it is probably beyond the technical competence of Nissan's engineers to shut off the start-up nag screen after telematics dies with AT&T's 2G service. It will certainly be a reason to tell friends to carefully evaluate their other brand options before buying a Nissan Leaf. We helped Nissan to a head start in this market. It is 'poor marketing' to turn their backs on us, even to the extent of a software fix to turn off the nag screen.

 

[Stanton]

Come on Nissan.
You could at least inform the dealers.
And should have notified all LEAF drivers like you did for the future upgrade option.

I still haven't received my notice (soft or hard copy) of the telematics upgrade...and I'm an original owner!

 

[JPWhite]

Come on Nissan.
You could at least inform the dealers.
And should have notified all LEAF drivers like you did for the future upgrade option.

I still haven't received my notice (soft or hard copy) of the telematics upgrade...and I'm an original owner!

It's a conspiracy!!

It is just informational, there's no coupon or code to retain. If you need a copy of a 2011 letter let me know and I'll furnish a copy.

 

[Deleted member 1622]

Hello -
I just called my Nissan dealer in Oakland, CA and they acted as though they had never heard of this Telematics upgrade. Typical Nissan, send a letter to notify the customers but don't bother to train or inform the dealers, this is how it was when I bought my Leaf in 2011. When the buyers have more knowledge than the dealers, it does not instill confidence in the product.
Still waiting for a call back from the service guys, who rarely answer their phones. Has anyone received a quote on this work elsewhere, or knows whether the service people even have the so-called "updated hardware" referenced in the letter? I do not like the sound of Nissan comping a "substantial portion" of the work. In Nissan-speak that could mean 50% or less.
In truth, if you sell a car, and then the software in it stops working 5 years later because you decided to use 2G (seriously? who knew that it even still existed), then it's the same as a faulty part and a recall should be issued. I'm surprised the government is letting them get away with this, there must be some kind of software loophole in the law.
My message to Nissan after this latest goof up: I'm ready to put $1000 down on a Tesla 3, thank you Elon Musk.
Best,
Jag

 

[JPWhite]

Hello -
I just called my Nissan dealer in Oakland, CA and they acted as though they had never heard of this Telematics upgrade. Typical Nissan, send a letter to notify the customers but don't bother to train or inform the dealers, this is how it was when I bought my Leaf in 2011. When the buyers have more knowledge than the dealers, it does not instill confidence in the product.

I think the reason the dealer knows nothing is probably because Nissan corporate have yet to decide the details of the upgrade program. A dealer copy of the letter we all received is probably sitting in someones inbox at the dealer. They probably gets dozens of notices per week.

It doesn't make it right, but it is what it is.

I'll be putting down my Tesla 3 deposit on March 31st. Its fully refundable. Might get a 3, might get a Bolt might get a LEAF 2.0. Time will tell.

 

[Bob]

There has been a lot of Nissan-bashing here. I'm not going to defend Nissan, but let me share a perspective.

Hopefully, everyone is good at something. No one is good at everything.

VW doesn't seem to be good at ethics. They never were, and it seems unlikely that they ever will be.

Tesla is good at technology, but from what I can tell, they are not so good at plain old car engineering. My friend owns a 2013 Model S and told me that they had to replace many of the suspension components because they didn't know what they were doing. (His words, not mine, not theirs.)

Nissan is pretty good at the drive train. High technology is new to them and they're finding their way. But considering that the Leaf is a low-volume production vehicle (compared to a Camry or Malibu), they did very well on so many aspects up front.

Tesla has great post-sales support. So does Nissan. They gave me a free loaner while my car was in the shop for warranty work, even though they never found a problem and the problem never happened again. Nissan also has a wide network of dealers. If you don't like one, pick another. I live in a rural area, but still have 3 Nissan dealers within 20 miles.

So before you buy a Tesla Model 3, remember the adage that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Science teaches us that grass looks greener from afar because the distant viewer is seeing the side of the blade of grass, not the top.

Bob

 

[Rebel44]

There has been a lot of Nissan-bashing here. I'm not going to defend Nissan, but let me share a perspective.

Hopefully, everyone is good at something. No one is good at everything.

VW doesn't seem to be good at ethics. They never were, and it seems unlikely that they ever will be.

Tesla is good at technology, but from what I can tell, they are not so good at plain old car engineering. My friend owns a 2013 Model S and told me that they had to replace many of the suspension components because they didn't know what they were doing. (His words, not mine, not theirs.)

Nissan is pretty good at the drive train. High technology is new to them and they're finding their way. But considering that the Leaf is a low-volume production vehicle (compared to a Camry or Malibu), they did very well on so many aspects up front.

Tesla has great post-sales support. So does Nissan. They gave me a free loaner while my car was in the shop for warranty work, even though they never found a problem and the problem never happened again. Nissan also has a wide network of dealers. If you don't like one, pick another. I live in a rural area, but still have 3 Nissan dealers within 20 miles.

So before you buy a Tesla Model 3, remember the adage that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Science teaches us that grass looks greener from afar because the distant viewer is seeing the side of the blade of grass, not the top.

Bob

Well, there is IMO a big difference, between expecting perfection and sheer incompetence in terms of SW and "tech features" (ACC, AEB, LTE etc.) that seems to be a norm at Nissan. And based on both data from Tesla and experience of people I talked to, who recently bought one, Model S reliability is now pretty good.

I had a Leaf test drive earlier today and I certainly wasnt impressed by people at Nissan stealership
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21594

count me into "likely future Model 3 owner" category

 

[JPWhite]

There has been a lot of Nissan-bashing here. I'm not going to defend Nissan, but let me share a perspective.

Hopefully, everyone is good at something. No one is good at everything.

VW doesn't seem to be good at ethics. They never were, and it seems unlikely that they ever will be.

Tesla is good at technology, but from what I can tell, they are not so good at plain old car engineering. My friend owns a 2013 Model S and told me that they had to replace many of the suspension components because they didn't know what they were doing. (His words, not mine, not theirs.)

Nissan is pretty good at the drive train. High technology is new to them and they're finding their way. But considering that the Leaf is a low-volume production vehicle (compared to a Camry or Malibu), they did very well on so many aspects up front.

Tesla has great post-sales support. So does Nissan. They gave me a free loaner while my car was in the shop for warranty work, even though they never found a problem and the problem never happened again. Nissan also has a wide network of dealers. If you don't like one, pick another. I live in a rural area, but still have 3 Nissan dealers within 20 miles.

So before you buy a Tesla Model 3, remember the adage that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Science teaches us that grass looks greener from afar because the distant viewer is seeing the side of the blade of grass, not the top.

Bob

Well, there is IMO a big difference, between expecting perfection and sheer incompetence in terms of SW and "tech features" (ACC, AEB, LTE etc.) that seems to be a norm at Nissan. And based on both data from Tesla and experience of people I talked to, who recently bought one, Model S reliability is now pretty good.

I had a Leaf test drive earlier today and I certainly wasnt impressed by people at Nissan stealership
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21594

count me into "likely future Model 3 owner" category

Rather than rely upon anecdotal reports I like to use online reliability tools. True Delta is one I use and contribute to. The 2011/12 LEAF's are very reliable cars (if you don't consider the battery issues), 2013 onwards not quite as good but still good. Tesla's are not reliable by comparison.

http://www.truedelta.com/

I suggest you all consider contributing your reliability information to the website. Its crowd sourced and doesn't cost anything.

 

[cwerdna]

based on both data from Tesla and experience of people I talked to, who recently bought one, Model S reliability is now pretty good.

What data from Tesla? Looking at my April 2016 issue of Consumer Reports, the '12 and '15 Model S have much worse than average reliability while the '13 is worse than average and '14 is average. Their predicted reliability is worse than average.

Off the top of my head, I don't know how many responses there were for the data that went into the above but http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ from Oct 2015 says "we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S". That seems a lot better (as in more data points) than anecdotal data from what's likely a FAR smaller sample size.

Drive units still continue to develop noise, often within 20K miles and get replaced. D (AWD) models seem to have some more complete failures than the RWD models of late. When there were only RWD models, DU failure (as in, car completely loses propulsion) seemed rare.

Here's just a tiny fraction of issues I have in my notes, mostly DU that I sent someone else recently.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page9?p=1262812&viewfull=1#post1262812
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page8?p=1223072&viewfull=1#post1223072
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/47465-Battery-coolant-heater-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56589-Pointless-door-handle-wear/page3?p=1339038&viewfull=1#post1339038

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure?p=1333070&viewfull=1#post1333070
- D is recent since that's AWD and not an early build
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page10?p=1302441&viewfull=1#post1302441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1237055&viewfull=1#post1237055
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1241212&viewfull=1#post1241212
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll/page45?p=1205441#post1205441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27853-That-very-loud-and-painful-clunk/page23?p=982829#post982829

These are older, and part of a mail I forwarded him...
Do also look at the repairs Edmunds incurred at
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html within 30K miles in 17 months.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement?p=979865&viewfull=1#post979865
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981726&viewfull=1#post981726
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981890&viewfull=1#post981890
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=982006&viewfull=1#post982006
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/53553-Resolved-My-P85-has-developed-the-milling-noise-and-Tesla-won-t-fix-it?p=1153157&viewfull=1#post1153157
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/50363-P85D-Front-Motor-Died

Drivetrain or motor replacement on Leafs is almost unheard of, despite them being on sale for longer than the Model S and despite there being many more Leafs in the wild than the S.

 

[Rebel44]

based on both data from Tesla and experience of people I talked to, who recently bought one, Model S reliability is now pretty good.

What data from Tesla? Looking at my April 2016 issue of Consumer Reports, the '12 and '15 Model S have much worse than average reliability while the '13 is worse than average and '14 is average. Their predicted reliability is worse than average.

Off the top of my head, I don't know how many responses there were for the data that went into the above but http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ from Oct 2015 says "we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S". That seems a lot better (as in more data points) than anecdotal data from what's likely a FAR smaller sample size.

Drive units still continue to develop noise, often within 20K miles and get replaced. D (AWD) models seem to have some more complete failures than the RWD models of late. When there were only RWD models, DU failure (as in, car completely loses propulsion) seemed rare.

Here's just a tiny fraction of issues I have in my notes, mostly DU that I sent someone else recently.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page9?p=1262812&viewfull=1#post1262812
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page8?p=1223072&viewfull=1#post1223072
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/47465-Battery-coolant-heater-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56589-Pointless-door-handle-wear/page3?p=1339038&viewfull=1#post1339038

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure?p=1333070&viewfull=1#post1333070
- D is recent since that's AWD and not an early build
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page10?p=1302441&viewfull=1#post1302441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1237055&viewfull=1#post1237055
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1241212&viewfull=1#post1241212
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll/page45?p=1205441#post1205441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27853-That-very-loud-and-painful-clunk/page23?p=982829#post982829

These are older, and part of a mail I forwarded him...
Do also look at the repairs Edmunds incurred at
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html within 30K miles in 17 months.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement?p=979865&viewfull=1#post979865
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981726&viewfull=1#post981726
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981890&viewfull=1#post981890
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=982006&viewfull=1#post982006
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/53553-Resolved-My-P85-has-developed-the-milling-noise-and-Tesla-won-t-fix-it?p=1153157&viewfull=1#post1153157
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/50363-P85D-Front-Motor-Died

Drivetrain or motor replacement on Leafs is almost unheard of, despite them being on sale for longer than the Model S and despite there being many more Leafs in the wild than the S.

In Q4 2015 earnings call, Elon said, that Tesla warranty expense per car is now 25% of what was in 2013. Also from that CR survey, it looks like for 2015 most issues are fit and finish - something that I care a hell of a less about, than battery degradation.

 

[TimLee]

... Drivetrain or motor replacement on Leafs is almost unheard of, ...

True.
But there have been some.
TickTock had a warranty motor replacement.

 

[cwerdna]

Also from that CR survey, it looks like for 2015 most issues are fit and finish - something that I care a hell of a less about, than battery degradation.

Problem spots for the '15 Model S include climate system, suspension, noises/leaks, body hardware and power equipment.

From http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/reliability-histories/index.htm

Consumer Reports subscribers reported on any serious problems they had with their vehicles during the past 12 months that they considered serious because of cost, failure, safety, or downtime, in any of the trouble spots included in the table below.

The scores in the charts are based on the percentage of respondents who reported problems in each of the 17 trouble spots. Because high-mileage cars tend to encounter more problems than low-mileage cars, problem rates are standardized to minimize differences due to mileage. The 2015 models were generally less than six months old at the time of the survey, with an average of about 3,000 miles.

Re: what Elon says... let's just say there's what Elon says vs. reality. There are PLENTY of examples of that.

But re: DUs, here are some:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34141-Drive-unit-problems-explanation-by-Elon
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56835-The-latest-drive-unit-explanation
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56835-The-latest-drive-unit-explanation?p=1225454&viewfull=1#post1225454 - note the date of this vs. the D model DU failure dates

I'd imagine there are actual multiple causes and the above are oversimplifications.

... Drivetrain or motor replacement on Leafs is almost unheard of, ...

True.
But there have been some.
TickTock had a warranty motor replacement.

Yep... orders of magnitude more on the Model S that I've heard of at "TMC" vs. here on Leafs.

Neither of these is anywhere near complete data:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/poll.php?pollid=262&do=showresults
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16813-Tesla-Model-S-Survey-by-Plug-In-America/page4?p=1272883&viewfull=1#post1272883

Tesla is good at technology, but from what I can tell, they are not so good at plain old car engineering. My friend owns a 2013 Model S and told me that they had to replace many of the suspension components because they didn't know what they were doing. (His words, not mine, not theirs.)

They also don't seem to be so good at long-term reliability, longevity and durability, as evidenced by the aforementioned DU problems, Edmunds' issues (for instance), http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/36414-Model-S-Not-Ready-For-Commercial-Use-Prime-Time-Can-I-afford-to-own-this-car, http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/36414-Model-S-Not-Ready-For-Commercial-Use-Prime-Time-Can-I-afford-to-own-this-car/page11?p=775682#post775682 and door handle problems.

Seems like a bad idea to have motors to extend and retract handles + having wires flex for each cycle. Pics at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/48051-door-handle-retraction-mechanism and an opinion at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56589-Pointless-door-handle-wear?p=1218706&viewfull=1#post1218706. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/43022-Door-Handle-Replacement/page2 points to a cost of $1000 to $1300 per door handle to replace when out of warranty, down from (?) $1900.

I'm guessing Elon, their designer or someone doing aerodynamics wanted it. Can't think of a whole lot of other cars that have them. There's probably a good reason for that.

The Model X has barely started shipping and yet we see reports of holes/torn seats already. Examples below:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/62121-Perforated-seats-durability
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/62121-Perforated-seats-durability/page5?p=1385218&viewfull=1#post1385218

Although I guess leather is probably less resistant to tearing/holes than the many/the best of fabric seats, I pointed to some info about seat durability testing at other automakers at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56176-automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing?p=1392303&viewfull=1#post1392303.

 

[dhanson865]

Seems like a bad idea to have motors to extend and retract handles + having wires flex for each cycle. Pics at ... points to a cost of $1000 to $1300 per door handle to replace when out of warranty, down from (?) $1900.

Did you notice that the Model X doesn't have retracting door handles? In fact it doesn't have external handles at all. The things that look like handles are buttons. No moving parts.

I'd expect the same on the Model 3.

They'll fix the reliability issues but damn straight the 2012 to first half 2014 had plenty of issues.

I'd gladly take any post D event Model S though (Oct 2014 build date/November 2014 delivery date on to now). Single motor or dual motor by then the worst was worked through.

I expect Model 3 will be more reliable than even the current Model S. Anything with high repair rates will be avoided in the Model 3.

 

[Valdemar]

I came across a story that Tesla refused to sell spare parts and fix a Model S after a relatively minor accident but which did cause an airbag to deploy. The twist is the owner exported the car from the US and then brought it back for repairs because he couldn't fix it in his country. The owner claims he wanted to pay out of pocket but Tesla said this car is no longer serviceable, Supercharger access was revoked as well because of the accident. He ended up fixing it in an independent shop with take-off parts from eBay. Is this plausible?

 

[Rebel44]

I came across a story that Tesla refused to sell spare parts and fix a Model S after a relatively minor accident but which did cause an airbag to deploy. The twist is the owner exported the car from the US and then brought it back for repairs because he couldn't fix it in his country. The owner claims he wanted to pay out of pocket but Tesla said this car is no longer serviceable, Supercharger access was revoked as well because of the accident. He ended up fixing it in an independent shop with take-off parts from eBay. Is this plausible?

Based on stories I heard, this is only an issue if insurance declare that car total loss.

 

[cwerdna]

In Q4 2015 earnings call, Elon said, that Tesla warranty expense per car is now 25% of what was in 2013. .

I searched every page of http://www.thestreet.com/story/13456288/1/tesla-motors-tsla-earnings-report-q4-2015-conference-call-transcript.html for warra and found no mention of this.

Even if it were true, Tesla has improved economies of scale in terms of service centers vs. # of vehicles on the road for that time period vs. 2013. They can and do refurbish drive units that were removed from vehicles. They've made changes to Ranger service policies which made them less customer friendly (e.g. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/47315-Change-of-Policy-on-Tesla-Ranger-Service, http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61966-service-ranger-fee and http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/57719-No-more-rangers-for-non-core-market). And, they should now have a lot more collective knowledge on how to more cheaply correct a problem (e.g. do it faster, do less trial and error, more info provided to service centers, TSBs written up, do less work to fix the problem, etc.)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

based on both data from Tesla and experience of people I talked to, who recently bought one, Model S reliability is now pretty good.

What data from Tesla? Looking at my April 2016 issue of Consumer Reports, the '12 and '15 Model S have much worse than average reliability while the '13 is worse than average and '14 is average. Their predicted reliability is worse than average.

Off the top of my head, I don't know how many responses there were for the data that went into the above but http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-its-high-performance/ from Oct 2015 says "we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S". That seems a lot better (as in more data points) than anecdotal data from what's likely a FAR smaller sample size.

Drive units still continue to develop noise, often within 20K miles and get replaced. D (AWD) models seem to have some more complete failures than the RWD models of late. When there were only RWD models, DU failure (as in, car completely loses propulsion) seemed rare.

Here's just a tiny fraction of issues I have in my notes, mostly DU that I sent someone else recently.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page9?p=1262812&viewfull=1#post1262812
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56512-Model-S-had-to-be-towed-home/page8?p=1223072&viewfull=1#post1223072
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/47465-Battery-coolant-heater-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/56589-Pointless-door-handle-wear/page3?p=1339038&viewfull=1#post1339038

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure?p=1333070&viewfull=1#post1333070
- D is recent since that's AWD and not an early build
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/61016-P85D-Rear-Drive-Unit-failure
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page10?p=1302441&viewfull=1#post1302441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1237055&viewfull=1#post1237055
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/55755-Drive-unit-3-(-Shudder-from-stop-restart-vehicle-to-continue-driving/page2?p=1241212&viewfull=1#post1241212
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/29834-Drive-Unit-Replacement-Poll/page45?p=1205441#post1205441

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/27853-That-very-loud-and-painful-clunk/page23?p=982829#post982829

These are older, and part of a mail I forwarded him...
Do also look at the repairs Edmunds incurred at
http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html within 30K miles in 17 months.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement?p=979865&viewfull=1#post979865
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981726&viewfull=1#post981726
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=981890&viewfull=1#post981890
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/46047-Drive-Unit-failure-symptoms-and-thresholds-for-replacement/page6?p=982006&viewfull=1#post982006
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/53553-Resolved-My-P85-has-developed-the-milling-noise-and-Tesla-won-t-fix-it?p=1153157&viewfull=1#post1153157
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/50363-P85D-Front-Motor-Died

Drivetrain or motor replacement on Leafs is almost unheard of, despite them being on sale for longer than the Model S and despite there being many more Leafs in the wild than the S.

have to wander off topic a bit but this illustrates why I have doubts about Tesla entering the mass market with the T3. What happens when 5% of them need warranty work? All of a sudden a handful of service centers are going to be overwhelmed. Its one thing to have a few dozen S's going in for stuff but what happens when you have several hundred cars coming in??

 

[Valdemar]

I came across a story that Tesla refused to sell spare parts and fix a Model S after a relatively minor accident but which did cause an airbag to deploy. The twist is the owner exported the car from the US and then brought it back for repairs because he couldn't fix it in his country. The owner claims he wanted to pay out of pocket but Tesla said this car is no longer serviceable, Supercharger access was revoked as well because of the accident. He ended up fixing it in an independent shop with take-off parts from eBay. Is this plausible?

Based on stories I heard, this is only an issue if insurance declare that car total loss.

I don't think this case was such an instance as the car wasn't insured in the US. Regardless, not being able to buy spare parts with your hard earned cash is a bit disconcerting.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I came across a story that Tesla refused to sell spare parts and fix a Model S after a relatively minor accident but which did cause an airbag to deploy. The twist is the owner exported the car from the US and then brought it back for repairs because he couldn't fix it in his country. The owner claims he wanted to pay out of pocket but Tesla said this car is no longer serviceable, Supercharger access was revoked as well because of the accident. He ended up fixing it in an independent shop with take-off parts from eBay. Is this plausible?

Based on stories I heard, this is only an issue if insurance declare that car total loss.

I don't think this case was such an instance as the car wasn't insured in the US. Regardless, not being able to buy spare parts with your hard earned cash is a bit disconcerting.

ever try to buy a spare traction battery from Nissan?