Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

[jsongster]

...It doesn't matter that I only drive an average of 30-50 miles per day if one day a week I need to go 100 miles. ... Tesla has figured that out, Nissan hasn't.

Exactly, the average trip is irrelevant. I need an EV which is capable of at least a 2.x-sigma trip (e.g a twice-monthly trip to san francisco, berkeley, or monterey in addition to my daily commute).

So... living in the bay area you can do that easily... there are quick chargers all around us here... and if you can charge at work... so when you leave you have full capacity again... why such a problem... I took a trip to the plug in day from my home in Martinez to Sunnyvale... then Santa Clara public library Quick charger, then Cupertino... got a full charge there at 240v... Made it back with charge to spare... no problem. I would love for Nissan to add an option for a bigger battery... but this one is enough also for most of what I do. Short trips during the week... occasional longer ones on weekend. Quick Chargers are up and down the major bay area freeways... and even connect us to sacramento...

I'd love for Nissan to add QC's along hwy 99 since that could easily connect us to LA.

 

[fotajoye]

When I purchased my Leaf in 2011, I thought Nissan would make good progress on improving the range of the battery and perhaps offer battery upgrades for a fair price. That didn't happen for reasons only Nissan knows. Additionally, they have announced the 2014 MY will essentially be the same range as the 2011. All this has been disappointing.

Frankly, it's to everyone's advantage who bought one of the cars, for Nissan to sell many more because it will create a larger after market for replacement Leaf traction batteries. And, I hope when "The Better Battery" is available, there will be secondary companies that will compete to sell Leaf owners and those who purchase used Leafs a higher density. lower-cost, overhauled battery pack.

A 48 kwh battery made from the current chemical cells is out of the question because of the added weight and cost. Running the Leaf with another 500lbs of batteries stuffed in the under trunk space could seriously degrade the handling and performance of the car.

I have read many ideas about how to increase the range of the Leaf; The only solution that makes sense is to replace the current battery pack with a battery pack that will fit the current location, has a higher density, is far less expensive and weighs less.

I believe this will happen within two to four years as Nissan sells more of the Leafs and battery technology advances.

 

[mwalsh]

Frankly, it's to everyone's advantage who bought one of the cars, for Nissan to sell many more because it will create a larger after market for replacement Leaf traction batteries. And, I hope when "The Better Battery" is available, there will be secondary companies that will compete to sell Leaf owners and those who purchase used Leafs a higher density. lower-cost, overhauled battery pack.

I get that. But, ethically, I cannot recommend the LEAF to pretty much anyone until it's Achilles heel is adequately addressed. From where I sit, it is the only problem with the car worth being concerned about (I can live with spotty CarWings and other small miscellaneous build issues) and it needs to be fixed now if not sooner.

 

[smkettner]

And, I hope when "The Better Battery" is available, there will be secondary companies that will compete to sell Leaf owners and those who purchase used Leafs a higher density. lower-cost, overhauled battery pack.

Due to low production I speculate these will be hand built with new technology cells. Minimum ten years away IMO.

I believe this will happen within two to four years as Nissan sells more of the Leafs and battery technology advances.

I speculate any significant improvement will be ten years out.

 

[adric22]

I also suspect any doubling of capacity is probably many years out. However, Nissan really needs to add about 10-15 miles to the Leaf's range. I mean even most of the compliance cars are outperforming the Leaf on range, just barely. Another 3 or 4 Kwh shouldn't be that tough to add, even if it means making the pack slightly larger. They have the best selling EV on the market, but that doesn't mean they can't be left behind if they don't increase the range just a bit. And just imagine the marketing.. any EPA range that starts with a 9 would sound a lot better than anything starting with a 7. And if they could hit that 3 digit number.. that's a big milestone and I think that would pass a significant psychological barrier.

 

[nosuchthing]

Leaf has 12-15 months free run ahead of itself. Comes Q1 2015, Tesla Model E prototype will be sending shivers through Leafs, i3s, Model Bs, VW whatevers, and other EV wannabes.

200-mile range, Tesla name, $35,000 (or so) price.

Let the EV war begin!

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Leaf has 12-15 months free run ahead of itself. Comes Q1 2015, Tesla Model E prototype will be sending shivers through Leafs, i3s, Model Bs, VW whatevers, and other EV wannabes.

200-mile range, Tesla name, $35,000 (or so) price.

Let the EV war begin!

Not if the price isn't right it won't !

Those who will be able to afford it will, but I'm assuming when tesla say affordable I doubt they had the bank balance of normal people in mind. I mean people who earn 35,000 or less a year.

I'm doubt the model E will be available in 2015 ? I thought Elon said more like 2017 ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Leaf has 12-15 months free run ahead of itself. Comes Q1 2015, Tesla Model E prototype will be sending shivers through Leafs, i3s, Model Bs, VW whatevers, and other EV wannabes.

200-mile range, Tesla name, $35,000 (or so) price.

Let the EV war begin!

willing to bet it wont be that soon and it wont be that cheap

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Leaf has 12-15 months free run ahead of itself. Comes Q1 2015, Tesla Model E prototype will be sending shivers through Leafs, i3s, Model Bs, VW whatevers, and other EV wannabes.

200-mile range, Tesla name, $35,000 (or so) price.

Let the EV war begin!

willing to bet it wont be that soon and it wont be that cheap

I wouldn't have said 35,000 USD was cheap if Tesla are calling it affordable, do they mean affordable for all people ? I know it's hard for Billionaires to understand that there are people who earn 35,000 USD or less !!!

If Tesla want to make it affordable then they should be aiming for at least VW golf territory price.

I wouldn't have thought 35,000 USD was the average car price in the U.S for average income earners ?

 

[adric22]

I wouldn't have said 35,000 USD was cheap if Tesla are calling it affordable, do they mean affordable for all people ? I know it's hard for Billionaires to understand that there are people who earn 35,000 USD or less !!!

If Tesla want to make it affordable then they should be aiming for at least VW golf territory price.

I wouldn't have thought 35,000 USD was the average car price in the U.S for average income earners ?

I really suspect it will be priced around $45,000 for the base model. After incentives that brings it down to around $38,000 range. That will make it affordable for a LOT of people, but definitely not the lower-middle-class and definitely not the low-income class. I also suspect that if you want to get any of the good options you'll wind up cranking the price up to $55,000 or more.

Tesla will always be a high-end brand. Selling a car too cheap would tarnish their name for their current customers. I mean, you don't expect to see a Porsche, Audi, or Jaguar model priced the same as a VW golf, do you?

The good news is, with the market finally starting to see some influx of used plug-in vehicles, some of the lower income brackets will finally be able to get their hands on one.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I wouldn't have said 35,000 USD was cheap if Tesla are calling it affordable, do they mean affordable for all people ? I know it's hard for Billionaires to understand that there are people who earn 35,000 USD or less !!!

If Tesla want to make it affordable then they should be aiming for at least VW golf territory price.

I wouldn't have thought 35,000 USD was the average car price in the U.S for average income earners ?

I mean, you don't expect to see a Porsche, Audi, or Jaguar model priced the same as a VW golf, do you?

Indeed not, but at least an Audi A3 isn't that much more expensive than a Golf. It just makes me laugh when I hear Elon talk about affordability, does he mean affordable for the well off or for the average man ? I.E middle class ? I think not !

I don't think it would tarnish the Tesla brand by making cars affordable for the lower middle to middle class at all, in fact they will sell far more cars if they make them available to a broader range of people.

In a few years they will face stiff competition from many other car manufacturers so they will have to adapt to survive, for now Tesla's only advantage is they sell a electric car with the most range, this will change.

The good news is, with the market finally starting to see some influx of used plug-in vehicles, some of the lower income brackets will finally be able to get their hands on one.

Well it's not just the lower income brackets earners, a lot of people wouldn't conceive the idea of spending a lot of money on a car and throw away money on depreciation and interest.

But there are 2nd hand leafs now becoming available for less than half their original cost, but it's not known yet on average how many miles to around 80% and lower.

The warranty lasts only 60K miles or 5 years which isn't good enough imo. Lets say the Leaf battery lasts on average 120,000 before say 70 ish % remaining capacity, that's pretty much useless unless you're doing a lot of town driving. No one will want a car with 50 or so mile range.

Nissan will only "repair" the battery from below 70% back to 70% and not more, Currently you will not get a new pack installed unless you are renting it.

The battery rental program doesn't make sense for a new buyer when they'll most likely have sold it long before battery capacity is an issue.

There needs to be a commitment on Nissan's behalf to give people confidence in the leaf, they need to buy back the old pack and use the value against a new pack.

It should be that you can get a new battery in a car up to 200,000 miles or so as any modern car is well capable of lasting 200,000 miles and more.

I don't think people will accept that cars are disposable after 100,000-150,000 miles ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

what people will accept has very much become a moving target. its not uncommon to see people changing vehicles at the 80,000-120,000 mile mark

**cue bombardment of people here who keep their cars for 250,000 miles, blah blah blah...**

ok, now that that is over, the fact above remains. there is really only a few things that can happen and the most likely scenario is 3rd party battery providers.

We already know that Tesla's price WILL BE beyond what most of us can pay. Now, that statement will find a lot of flak as well because this board is not representative of America. Most Americans (which includes me) cannot afford to spend more than $30,000 on a car. The Tesla price that has been bounced around is AFTER incentives (Tesla has rarely advertised a price without that discount) so we are really talking about a car that STARTS at $40,000+ which really eliminates about 70% of the car market.

10-12 million new cars are bought every year and the medium price is around 30,000 which means 6 million are in that price range but when you remove trucks, that figure drops to around one million. add another $10,000 to the price and that number drops even further

But Tesla has very high margins and they are only one factory so I am sure they will be elated to sell 25,000 of these "affordable" EVs...

IOW; Nissan wont feel a thing

 

[gbarry42]

Apologies for veering on-topic, for just a moment, I promise...

When I purchased my Leaf in 2011, I thought Nissan would make good progress on improving the range of the battery and perhaps offer battery upgrades for a fair price. That didn't happen for reasons only Nissan knows.

For some odd reason, I happen to know. Battery improvements don't come just because you wait a year or two. There aren't better batteries of this type yet. Battery tech is hard, and it's not about making smaller chips, so Moore's law won't work for you.

The only solution that makes sense is to replace the current battery pack with a battery pack that will fit the current location, has a higher density, is far less expensive and weighs less.

I believe this will happen within two to four years as Nissan sells more of the Leafs and battery technology advances.

It's good to have faith, but again, it's a physics problem, and someone has to solve it, and on top of that, it has to be producible. It isn't hard to figure out what we want, but getting it is the problem.

So, veering back into the "what do people need" thread,

...that's pretty much useless unless you're doing a lot of town driving. No one will want a car with 50 or so mile range.

Before the LEAF was announced, we attended a few local electric car club meetings. These vehicles were almost all conversions. Folks would happily throw 15 grand into turning a used car into an EV. I don't recall anyone stating the had more than a 40 mile range. And it worked for them. While I'm not saying this kind of range is for everyone, there must be a segment of the population for whom it is. And I think a low enough price on something will cause a lot of people to think carefully about what they really need.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

So, veering back into the "what do people need" thread,

...that's pretty much useless unless you're doing a lot of town driving. No one will want a car with 50 or so mile range.

Before the LEAF was announced, we attended a few local electric car club meetings. These vehicles were almost all conversions. Folks would happily throw 15 grand into turning a used car into an EV. I don't recall anyone stating the had more than a 40 mile range. And it worked for them. While I'm not saying this kind of range is for everyone, there must be a segment of the population for whom it is. And I think a low enough price on something will cause a lot of people to think carefully about what they really need.

Yes even 40 mile range is quiet enough for pottering around town etc but it is far from being suitable as a main family car.

Renault's Twizy is perfect for such pottering around, well, almost perfect. If it had proper sealed doors and heating it would make it perfect. It's small size make it ideal for nipping in and out of traffic and for parking. I never get the idea of so many 5 seater cars to transport one person, until I think about it that is, most people want a car that's suitable for most of their needs, however if the Twizy were cheap it would be an excellent run-a-bout and I'd have one myself. But it's very high price along with battery rental make it completely non viable from a financial point of view, it just can't compete with a cheap ice car that costs a few thousand with no silly rental.

I still can't understand, until batteries improve, why they can't install some kind of lpg heater, or at least it be a cheap option. It would solve the range reduction related to using the heater. It would be perfect imo and still have the electric heater as an option.

If Nissan can give Leaf II at least 30 kwh (usable) then it would be 10 kwh extra and that would make a great difference and could see just over 100 real miles of use. The EPA rate the Leafs efficiency as 30 kwh/100 miles.

Even more important is faster charging, 5-10 mins max would be a game changer, I don't believe in carrying a huge battery for the 10% of time it's needed, but I don't think the general public will accept the low range of the leaf either, however a reall 100 miles and much faster recharge time along with a lot more fast chargers could change peoples minds.

I once thought hydrogen wouldn't work, from an economical point of view hydrogen is a huge waste of energy to produce, but if hydrogen were available now along with a filling network and a price similar to diesel, at least here in the E.U, then that would be the final nail in the battery electric car coffin. permanently !

I'm against hydrogen for one reason and that it will be priced and taxed similar to petrol/diesel, while electricity is very cheap in comparison and you can always install solar p.v or a wind turbine. However a hydrogen car will still have a pretty big battery that you'll most likely have the option of charging at home.

I think we're a minimum of 10-15 years before we see a 300 mile battery in a car the size of the Leaf that is relatively affordable and can charge in any decent time, but I would hope to see at least 30 kwh for Leaf II with at least 100 kw fast charge capability.

 

[Anonymous]

Renault's Twizy is perfect for such pottering around, well, almost perfect. If it had proper sealed doors and heating it would make it perfect. It's small size make it ideal for nipping in and out of traffic and for parking. I never get the idea of so many 5 seater cars to transport one person, until I think about it that is, most people want a car that's suitable for most of their needs

I bought a Smart Electric Drive for my commute. Came in under $20K including taxes. Looks and runs great. Most fun car I've ever owned, and that includes a 1998 Camaro Z28 300HP.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The smart is a cool car, and the electric version is something I've not looked into much.

I don't even know if it's available on this island.

At least the smart ev has heat.

Twizy would be great but at 10,000 euros and more it's just a ridiculous price and that's not including battery rental.

Twizy should be around 4-5 thousand euros without battery rental or even less.

For 10,000 euros you can buy a pretty decent ice car, or 5,000 for a run a bout, 10,000 euros on a twizy no matter how cheap to charge will never make sense, especially so with the battery rental.

 

[jsongster]

My Honda odyysey van had a transmission that died every 60k miles. Honda bought 1st replacement and told me I had to split it with them at 120k... point is... people still buy honda based on their old rep... not good any more.

My LEAF is working fine... less complicated than average icemobile... perfect second car until infrastructure catches up, after that... who knows. More quick chargers... more range.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

Did anyone else hear Nissan are thinking about offering a "multi pack size option" ?

Probably with the MKII leaf.

http://www.electric-vehiclenews.com/2013/12/400-km-range-nissan-leaf-could-become.html

 

[Zurc]

I checked out the electric smart before I settled on the leaf and thought it would be great until I discovered that I could not get my foot onto the "gas" pedal due to the short spacing between the center console wall and the brake pedal.
I also tried out an ICE focus (because there was no demo focus electric to be had) and ended up getting my foot stuck on the gas pedal between the brake pedal and the center console. Imagine using your left foot to brake only to discover that as you push down on the brake, your right foot, which is stuck, is also being pushed down on the gas pedal. Exciting exhilarating stuff. Fortunately it was only in the show room so no disaster. A 50kw Leaf would, I think, be quite adequate range wise. However, given that I find the seat very uncomfortable and the rear right and direct rear vision very poor, unless those issues change, I'll be looking for a different EV the next time. Nice car otherwise though.

Zurc.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

The kia soul EV is coming soon.

It's battery has got thermal management and is a very good alternative to the Leaf.

Those who fast change a lot and get their battery got should seriously consider the soul. It should have a good bit extra winter range too.