Nissan's Included L1 (120v) EVSE

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but I don't know where!

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

 

[Stoaty]

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

Yes, this is a valid option for indefinite use. The only downside is that testing by owners shows that L1 charging (120 volt) is about 75% efficient and L2 charging (240 volt) is about 88% efficient. That means you are wasting some electrons using 120 volt charging.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

Yes, this is a valid option for indefinite use. The only downside is that testing by owners shows that L1 charging (120 volt) is about 75% efficient and L2 charging (240 volt) is about 88% efficient. That means you are wasting some electrons using 120 volt charging.

Thanks!

 

[ebill3]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but I don't know where!

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

Welcome to the forum.

For a lot of comments on your question, look at: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9737

Bill

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but I don't know where!

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

Welcome to the forum.

For a lot of comments on your question, look at: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9737

Bill

Argh! That is what I needed, thanks--I couldn't find it.

 

[mazdaboi]

I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but I don't know where!

How many owners of this car are only using the included 120V charging option? Other than the slow charging rate of it, is there any reason this is not a valid option indefinitely, for those not wanting to upgrade to 240V or upgrade the charging cable or whatever?

I have been using the L1 at home and dragging it to work with me for the past 3 weeks. Its been working ok for now. But definitely not an ideal situation with me doing a 75mile RT everyday. No room for extra electrical car enjoyment in the evenings as the car is constantly on the charger. LOL

But it is dooable for people who dont commute to the max like I do and just simply running around town.

 

[FalconFour]

http://evseupgrade.com/pic/?nec-rules1

You know, it's actually kinda strange that there would even need to be a section of the NEC for "electric vehicle supply equipment". It's just another appliance or device that consumes electricity in such a way as not to disrupt normal power operations and cause a lawsuit situation for the manufacturer. Seems silly they need to make a whole list of rules just on how to install an EVSE to make it more complicated in the name of "safety", when people ghetto-rig devices that put just as much of an amp-load on wiring, like microwaves and space heaters...

That said, I've gone through all 25 pages - I'll admit, skipped the last 4 to jump here and reply on this image - but I haven't yet seen any discussion on the burning issue in the earlier part of this thread:

For those of us that are satisfied with L1, and since the Nissan L1 is the only L1 EVSE I'm aware of, is the EVSE signal actually *LIMITING* what the car's onboard charger is capable of sucking out of 120v L1?

As in, it's limited to 12 amps right now, but only in software... and theoretically (ignoring all "what-ifs" of breakers, wiring, AWG, plug, etc) would be able to go higher if the EVSE just "told" the car to go faster? I haven't yet read anyone confirming/denying this possibility... sure would be cool if there was a mod that could bump up the L1 brick to a higher L1 level!

As for extension cords: give me a break Nissan! There's much more hazard in bad house wiring and worn outlets. The heat occurs not in the cable or wire, but with the weak contact surface between the socket and the prongs of the plug. That's what causes overheating and fire hazards. Some extension cords are beefier than some house wiring! And the house wiring is already a very long extension cord from the utility, through the meter, to your breaker box, to the outlets. I've only ever charged my LEAF with a home-made industrial-grade extension cord (just barely thinner than the cable on the EVSE - though that has more conductors in the cable) with a GFI outlet and weather hood - roommate made it for other purposes long ago. I even charge with a 16AWG extension cord while I'm at work - the cable never gets anything close to "hot", and the socket is a firm fit.

I wouldn't want to beef up the amperage and continue to use it with an extension cord, but it would be a good option for people with known good outlets/wiring/breakers (20A) and short runs. Is it even POSSIBLE? I guess that's my question...

 

[Ingineer]

You know, it's actually kinda strange that there would even need to be a section of the NEC for "electric vehicle supply equipment". It's just another appliance or device that consumes electricity in such a way as not to disrupt normal power operations and cause a lawsuit situation for the manufacturer. Seems silly they need to make a whole list of rules just on how to install an EVSE to make it more complicated in the name of "safety", when people ghetto-rig devices that put just as much of an amp-load on wiring, like microwaves and space heaters...

Did you just wake up from a long coma? It's all about liability! Blame the Lawyers and our litigious society.

That said, I've gone through all 25 pages - I'll admit, skipped the last 4 to jump here and reply on this image - but I haven't yet seen any discussion on the burning issue in the earlier part of this thread:

For those of us that are satisfied with L1, and since the Nissan L1 is the only L1 EVSE I'm aware of, is the EVSE signal actually *LIMITING* what the car's onboard charger is capable of sucking out of 120v L1?

As in, it's limited to 12 amps right now, but only in software... and theoretically (ignoring all "what-ifs" of breakers, wiring, AWG, plug, etc) would be able to go higher if the EVSE just "told" the car to go faster? I haven't yet read anyone confirming/denying this possibility... sure would be cool if there was a mod that could bump up the L1 brick to a higher L1 level!

No, the on board charger limits to 12A max when on Level I voltages regardless of EVSE pilot signal. This is not just an arbitrary limitation, as it would likely require more expensive magnetics/semiconductors to be used.

As for extension cords: give me a break Nissan! There's much more hazard in bad house wiring and worn outlets. The heat occurs not in the cable or wire, but with the weak contact surface between the socket and the prongs of the plug. That's what causes overheating and fire hazards. Some extension cords are beefier than some house wiring! And the house wiring is already a very long extension cord from the utility, through the meter, to your breaker box, to the outlets. I've only ever charged my LEAF with a home-made industrial-grade extension cord (just barely thinner than the cable on the EVSE - though that has more conductors in the cable) with a GFI outlet and weather hood - roommate made it for other purposes long ago. I even charge with a 16AWG extension cord while I'm at work - the cable never gets anything close to "hot", and the socket is a firm fit.

Again, it's CYA. I don't like to tell anyone they are "safe" with any particular configuration, as there's truly no way to be sure without direct inspection, and thus I am put in a situation where I could be liable if my "bad" advice burns someone's garage down.

I wouldn't want to beef up the amperage and continue to use it with an extension cord, but it would be a good option for people with known good outlets/wiring/breakers (20A) and short runs. Is it even POSSIBLE? I guess that's my question...

Not without expensive modifications in the OBC.

-Phil

 

[FalconFour]

Ah... I'd figured since L2 runs at 15 amps flat through the same cable, the L1 ought to be willing to do the same since it's amps that generally matter; adding volts can put the same amount of energy through a smaller wire (I genuinely have no idea what the name of that law is or what its equation is... yay experience-learning!) - so if you have 120v and 12 amps you get 1440 VA (~1440 watts, ~1.4kW), use 240v and that same number of watts only needs 6 amps. So to max out that wire as well, L2 (at 240) runs at 15 amps since it's usually given a larger gauge wire for larger appliances anyway. That's 240v * 15A = 3600 VA (~3.6kW). Maxed out on both sides. Shame they didn't just give the charger up to 15 amps of power but limit the included EVSE box to 12A for liability.

But I forgot to factor in that charging from L1 requires not a step-down conversion like everything else we plug into the wall, but a nearly-4x multiplication of voltage! Yeah, that might be a little harder to work with than 220v. Actually it's quite a decent design from Nissan: giving it just enough power to play it super-safe, on both L1 and L2, and have a charger that's fully utilized in both conditions. Not bad.

Mind-boggling just how big a battery is in that car and how fast we expect the power to flow to it :lol:

(edit: "let's expand on that...")

 

[DaveEV]

Ah... I'd figured since L2 runs at 15 amps flat through the same cable, the L1 ought to be willing to do the same since it's amps that generally matter

You are right. If you plugged the modded 16A EVSE into a car which will pull 16A on L1 (like a Tesla), you will see 120V/16A. Just not when charging a LEAF which will only pull 12A on L1.

 

[FalconFour]

Ah... I'd figured since L2 runs at 15 amps flat through the same cable, the L1 ought to be willing to do the same since it's amps that generally matter

You are right. If you plugged the modded 16A EVSE into a car which will pull 16A on L1 (like a Tesla), you will see 120V/16A. Just not when charging a LEAF which will only pull 12A on L1.

At first I was like,

Oh, so they did just the opposite of what would make sense for "liability"! :lol: Instead of limiting the bundled EVSE for lawyer's purposes, they limit the charger and program the EVSE to report a higher rate than the car can use! Oh, that's just downright dumb. Least they could've done is design the on-board charger with capabilities to match the rated specs of the unit they're bundling! :lol:

Then I was like... oh, wait. Modded EVSE. Duh. That's cool, it bumps it up to a realistic spec. At least if the on-board charger COULD go faster than 12A, it has the capability now... at the very least it may improve charging rates since the charger won't be running at the EVSE's peak rated load and possibly throttling back on whims. Always good.

 

[srl99]

You'll be wishing you saved the heavy duty NEMA 5-15 plug from the EVSE before you sent it out for "upgrade". This is probably not the plug you'd choose for 16A http://www.yung-li.com.tw/EN/products/plug_cat_b.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ah... I'd figured since L2 runs at 15 amps flat through the same cable, the L1 ought to be willing to do the same since it's amps that generally matter

You are right. If you plugged the modded 16A EVSE into a car which will pull 16A on L1 (like a Tesla), you will see 120V/16A. Just not when charging a LEAF which will only pull 12A on L1.

 

[Ingineer]

You'll be wishing you saved the heavy duty NEMA 5-15 plug from the EVSE before you sent it out for "upgrade". This is probably not the plug you'd choose for 16A http://www.yung-li.com.tw/EN/products/plug_cat_b.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No NEMA 5-15 plugs are technically rated for anything over 15A. That being said, on our 120v adapter we use a custom fully overmolded 5-15 plug with 12AWG copper from a shielded cable assembly directly welded to the hardened alloy prongs. The "heavy duty" end that comes on the original cord is a screw-on type, which are nowhere near as reliable as a welded and fully overmolded end like we use. Here's a cutaway showing the size of the conductors and on the top you can see that it's as if the prong and the conductor are one solid piece because of the weldment:

Also, the welded terminal resistance is much lower, (less heat/loss) especially after a few years of heavy use. The screw terminal type as on the original slowly loosens as they age and thermal cycle, eventually burning up the plug, even at only 12 amps! We've received quite a few original units in for upgrade simply because the original plugs burnt up. We generally repair any damage free-of-charge on every unit we upgrade. Since we replace the whole inlet cord assembly as a whole, this doesn't affect the outcome in any event.

This same welded overmold technology is used on our L6-20 ends, and the current design is field-proven in thousands of units now with a perfect record. It's damn near impossible to damage these, even with daily plug/unplug cycles!

We advise against attempting to draw over 12a on a 120v outlet, but as Drees pointed out, there are some ways in which you can do this, so it's up to the user to ensure that their application is safe. We do the best we can to ensure a safe and reliable product, and our history in the real world proves it!

-Phil

 

[FalconFour]

I just can't help but question that "over 12a" (15a, etc) thing. In the kitchen, it seems like anything goes - microwaves (briefly, of course) running at 1800 watts (roughly 1800VA assuming 0.99 PF, which is unlikely), from a standard "meh, put one there" outlet in the average kitchen - that's 15 amps with perfect efficiency, more likely to be 16 or 17.

Or say you're making coffee (900 watts) and toasting some bread (1000-1200 watts). Resistive loads have a perfect (either 0.99 or 1, can't remember where it tops out) power factor (PF) just like the LEAF's PFC-correcting charger nets a 0.99 on my Kill-a-Watt. So those potentially total 1900-2100 watts/VA - or a load of 16-17.5 amps.

What about those ever-present space heaters, heater fans, and radiators? It's all too common to see products in the 1800 watt category - with a switch for a 800-watt mode and a 1,000-watt mode, or combine for max. People I've seen never think twice about idly flipping both switches on. With the heater plugged into a power strip with their laptop and TV into a loose wall outlet from the '80s. "No problem bro..."

Sure, all these things say "don't use with power strip", and microwaves often go so far as to recommend their own circuit. But the heater wouldn't sell very well if it told people they need a "stand-alone circuit" for it, or had a thick 12AWG supply cord to drag around. Heaters are made to be convenient, and the manufacturers of heaters somehow figure a way to get away with selling them. Even though they draw more power for often the same amount of time as the L1 charger!

I think that trusty NEMA 5-15 plug isn't being fairly treated here... :lol: Nissan shouldn't be throttling the connector below the spec (12A instead of 15A as its plug is rated) just because they don't trust the integrity of the standard. If they're adhering to that spec by tight computer control - more than can be said for aged room heaters! - they REALLY ought to just let it go full 15A and get the most performance possible out of the L1 method!

 

[tps]

The 12A thing comes from the code. It requires a "continuous load" to be derated to 80% of full load. Hence, on a 15A circuit, a "continuous load" can draw a maximum of 12A. IIRC, over 3 hours is considered "continuous". They are very picky about this at the data center where our company's servers are located. We have a 20A circuit in our server rack, but are not allowed to draw more than 16A. They use the TrippLite rack-mount outlet strips with the built-in digital ammeter, so it is easy to see just what the current draw is...

Nissan could have set 120V charging up to be 16A had they used a 5-20 plug, but many home outlets do not have the "T" slot to accept 5-20. I think they made the right decision to go with the more popular 5-15 plug, which limited them to 12A continuous current draw.

 

[adric22]

What about those ever-present space heaters, heater fans, and radiators?

I have first hand experience with this. We were adding onto our home last Winter and since half of the house was exposed to the elements, we decided to turn off the central heat, close all of the doors and use 1,500 watt space heaters in each room. One after the next, each room had some sort of electrical failure. We had melted wires, melted sockets and even one melted light switch. Apparently the electrician who wired our home daisy-chained an outlet off of a light switch. They also used 14-gauge wire and just stuck them in the holes in the back of the sockets, rather than using the screws on the sides of the sockets. So I ended up re-wiring all of that. I left the 14-gauge wire because that was embedded into the wall. But I replaced all of the sockets and switches and I tightened down the wires using the screws. This seemed to solve the problem. I'm just glad our home didn't catch on fire.

I ended up doing all of the electrical work for the 3 new rooms we added and I used 12-gauge wire through the whole thing.

 

[garygid]

Right, it is all about not violating the National Electrical Code,
and avoiding the liability of doing so.

 

[srl99]

Phill, "technically 5-15 not rated over 15A", but yours is OK for a 16A continuous draw overnight in my garage while I'm sleeping?!? Really?

I'm seeing a 30F temp increase at your plug (105F vs 72F ambient), 15+A draw, NEMA 5-20 receptacle.

 

[Ingineer]

Phill, "technically 5-15 not rated over 15A", but yours is OK for a 16A continuous draw overnight in my garage while I'm sleeping?!? Really?

I'm seeing a 30F temp increase at your plug (105F vs 72F ambient), 15+A draw, NEMA 5-20 receptacle.

Then you are using the upgrade against it's intended use. If you use it on any EV we have tested, they all limit to 12A when used on 120v. If you are attempting to use it in any other manner, then you could experience problems. Have you had a qualified electrician inspect your particulars?

Obviously there are many ways in which you can do something that might be dangerous, which is why you agreed in writing when you purchased services from us to have an electrician look at your setup.

A simple solution would be to replace your 5-20 receptacle with a L6-20 which is rated for higher current, which is what we recommend.

With thousands of units out in operation every day, we have had no other reports of any elevated temperatures, save for a customer whose dog had chewed into his EVSE cable. (which we were able to repair for him)

You seem like you have an axe to grind here. If you are not happy, by all means; send your unit back and we will take care of you.

-Phil

 

[srl99]

I can believe you've only tested with vehicle(s?) limited to 12A on L1. However, your "Rev 2 upgrade" puts out a pilot signal for ?16A?, and there _are_ vehicles which will obey that on L1. [I have yet to measure the duty cycle of the pilot signal.]

My axe is that I told your office about this, wasted time going in several rounds of FUD/BS with him, and got some story about your L6-20 -> NEMA 5-15 cable being rated 20A all the way through. There are custom plugs in the world, but why would you label it YP-12 ? Yi Ling does make NEMA 5-15 plugs with higher ratings.

Phill, "technically 5-15 not rated over 15A", but yours is OK for a 16A continuous draw overnight in my garage while I'm sleeping?!? Really?

I'm seeing a 30F temp increase at your plug (105F vs 72F ambient), 15+A draw, NEMA 5-20 receptacle.

Then you are using the upgrade against it's intended use. If you use it on any EV we have tested, they all limit to 12A when used on 120v. If you are attempting to use it in any other manner, then you could experience problems. Have you had a qualified electrician inspect your particulars?

Obviously there are many ways in which you can do something that might be dangerous, which is why you agreed in writing when you purchased services from us to have an electrician look at your setup.

A simple solution would be to replace your 5-20 receptacle with a L6-20 which is rated for higher current, which is what we recommend.

With thousands of units out in operation every day, we have had no other reports of any elevated temperatures, save for a customer whose dog had chewed into his EVSE cable. (which we were able to repair for him)

You seem like you have an axe to grind here. If you are not happy, by all means; send your unit back and we will take care of you.

-Phil