Nissan's Included L1 (120v) EVSE

[Ingineer]

I can believe you've only tested with vehicle(s?) limited to 12A on L1. However, your "Rev 2 upgrade" puts out a pilot signal for ?16A?, and there _are_ vehicles which will obey that on L1. [I have yet to measure the duty cycle of the pilot signal.]

My axe is that I told your office about this, wasted time going in several rounds of FUD/BS with him, and got some story about your L6-20 -> NEMA 5-15 cable being rated 20A all the way through. There are custom plugs in the world, but why would you label it YP-12 ? Yi Ling does make NEMA 5-15 plugs with higher ratings.

If you want to be safe, you should IMMEDIATELY CEASE using the EVSE on your existing 120v outlet!

Unfortunately there is no way the EVSE can determine what voltage it's connected to, so it puts out a fixed pilot. This is a limitation in the Panasonic design, as it doesn't have the physical voltage detection hardware. In almost every EV out there, and probably 99.9% of our customers' cars, the on-board charger limits to 12A so this isn't a problem.

When you purchased our upgrade, you agreed to have a qualified electrician evaluate your particular setup. Obviously you never had that done, which was your choice.

In any event, This is not a question of what the 120v adapter is rated for. Technically it CAN handle 20a, as it's construction is identical to one equipped with a NEMA 5-20P to L6-20R, save for one blade being rotated 90 degrees in the plug housing. The designation of YP-12 is the style of plug overmold, which has nothing to do with it's rating. It's 12AWG or better throughout. The problem is that it could be connected to outlets that are only rated for 15A, which in your case is overloading YOUR OUTLET by 1 amp. Our adapter officially carries a 15A rating, and most of the time never sees over 12A. Unfortunately there is no possible way to create a "better" adapter, no matter what materials are used, as the limitation is the 15A outlet that it is connecting to!

In your unique case, you apparently have an EV that will attempt to draw more than 12A when on 120v. If you like, As a solution we can set the pilot on your unit for 12A, but then you will lose capability when on 240v. The best solution would be to have a 20A NEMA 5-20R outlet installed (spec grade) and go with that, or send your unit back for pilot adjustment. If you are not happy with these solutions, we'll return your EVSE to original condition and refund your money. You can then go purchase something else.

Because you neglected to have a licensed electrician inspect your setup, and you are choosing to not let us properly help you, we cannot be responsible for what happens. If you do not want take our advice or accept any of our offers of assistance, then why are you STILL here complaining?

-Phil

 

[srl99]

A licensed electrician installed and examined (this week) the NEMA 5-20 receptacle this is connected to. How did you come to the conclusion this was not done?

I can believe you've only tested with vehicle(s?) limited to 12A on L1. However, your "Rev 2 upgrade" puts out a pilot signal for ?16A?, and there _are_ vehicles which will obey that on L1. [I have yet to measure the duty cycle of the pilot signal.]

My axe is that I told your office about this, wasted time going in several rounds of FUD/BS with him, and got some story about your L6-20 -> NEMA 5-15 cable being rated 20A all the way through. There are custom plugs in the world, but why would you label it YP-12 ? Yi Ling does make NEMA 5-15 plugs with higher ratings.

If you want to be safe, you should IMMEDIATELY CEASE using the EVSE on your existing 120v outlet!

Unfortunately there is no way the EVSE can determine what voltage it's connected to, so it puts out a fixed pilot. This is a limitation in the Panasonic design, as it doesn't have the physical voltage detection hardware. In almost every EV out there, and probably 99.9% of our customers' cars, the on-board charger limits to 12A so this isn't a problem.

When you purchased our upgrade, you agreed to have a qualified electrician evaluate your particular setup. Obviously you never had that done, which was your choice.

In any event, This is not a question of what the 120v adapter is rated for. Technically it CAN handle 20a, as it's construction is identical to one equipped with a NEMA 5-20P to L6-20R, save for one blade being rotated 90 degrees in the plug housing. The designation of YP-12 is the style of plug overmold, which has nothing to do with it's rating. It's 12AWG or better throughout. The problem is that it could be connected to outlets that are only rated for 15A, which in your case is overloading YOUR OUTLET by 1 amp. Our adapter officially carries a 15A rating, and most of the time never sees over 12A. Unfortunately there is no possible way to create a "better" adapter, no matter what materials are used, as the limitation is the 15A outlet that it is connecting to!

In your unique case, you apparently have an EV that will attempt to draw more than 12A when on 120v. If you like, As a solution we can set the pilot on your unit for 12A, but then you will lose capability when on 240v. The best solution would be to have a 20A NEMA 5-20R outlet installed (spec grade) and go with that, or send your unit back for pilot adjustment. If you are not happy with these solutions, we'll return your EVSE to original condition and refund your money. You can then go purchase something else.

Because you neglected to have a licensed electrician inspect your setup, and you are choosing to not let us properly help you, we cannot be responsible for what happens. If you do not want take our advice or accept any of our offers of assistance, then why are you STILL here complaining?

-Phil

 

[garygid]

A 5-20R must be on a 20 amp breaker circuit.
What's the problem?

 

[EVDRIVER]

A licensed electrician installed and examined (this week) the NEMA 5-20 receptacle this is connected to. How did you come to the conclusion this was not done?

So you have a cord that can easily handle your load and a claimed outlet which is fine. You insist on not listening to the facts and keep making assumptions based on specs that do not apply. Phil offered you solutions and you insist on challenging facts by looking at the wrong information repeatedly.

So, what is the problem other then wasting people's time that have gone out of their way to help you? What exactly do you want? Why don't you either send your EVSE back to Phil and get the pilot set to where you want it or send the 120V adapter back to him for a refund and get one that you feel is correct? You are making all these false arguments on non-facts and not taking any action on solutions that make you seem like you have nothing better to do.

 

[davewill]

A licensed electrician installed and examined (this week) the NEMA 5-20 receptacle this is connected to. How did you come to the conclusion this was not done?

If you're that concerned why don't you make or buy an L6-20R to 5-20P adapter? Then every component in the adapter will be clearly specced for 20a and you can sleep happy. To make an EVSE that can safely plug into the plethora of outlets we expect to plug the upgrade into truly bulletproof, so that it automatically senses what kind of adapter is connected and changes amperages accordingly, would require something like Tesla is including with the model S. I guarantee no one could bring anything like it to market and charge less than $1500 or so plus maybe $100-200 per adapter. Phil makes it VERY clear that he tries his best, but that we are ultimately responsible to use the upgrade safely.

If you feel the 5-15 adapter is inadequate for your usage, it's YOUR responsibility to do something about it. If you are going to insist on holding Phil responsible for your individual situation, I'd suggest you take him up on a return.

 

[Ingineer]

Thanks everyone for offering this customer good advice. I think Dave said it better than I could!

-Phil

 

[Phatcat73]

Pardon my ignorance. I'm looking at the 2013 Leaf and the facilities folks at work said I can use a dedicated 120V 20amp outlet.

If I perform the EVSE upgrade, will I be able to draw at 16 amps therefore reducing my charge time over the 12A? Will the 2013 Leaf allow it, or is it too early to tell?

I have a 120 mile roundtrip commute, 97% all highway and live in Chicago. Every bit will help to ensure a full charge when leaving the office.

thx.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Pardon my ignorance. I'm looking at the 2013 Leaf and the facilities folks at work said I can use a dedicated 120V 20amp outlet.

If I perform the EVSE upgrade, will I be able to draw at 16 amps therefore reducing my charge time over the 12A? Will the 2013 Leaf allow it, or is it too early to tell?

I have a 120 mile roundtrip commute, 97% all highway and live in Chicago. Every bit will help to ensure a full charge when leaving the office.

thx.

The LEAF will only draw 12A at 120V, to get 16A you would need 240V.

 

[adric22]

I heard somewhere that the EVSE included in the 2013 Leaf is somewhat smaller than the original. Has anyone had a chance to examine one? I know I've mentioned this before, but I really hate the design of my Panasonic L1 unit. I know from reading on here that it is a well-built and reliable unit. But it is just not designed well from an end-user perspective. It is big and heavy, with a very short little cord that sticks way out of the wall socket, which can't be good for the socket or the connector. You'd think at minimum they could have given us a right-angle connector.

I have been charging my Leaf with this Voltec unit for the last year with absolutely no problems. I believe it is the revised version with thicker gauge cable that came with our 2012 Volt. I actually installed a 20-amp dedicated socket right next to the unit where I wall-mounted it. It just seems like such a much cleaner design.

Anyway. So I had thought for a while about upgrading my leaf's L1 unit to 240V but I really don't need faster charge times very often on my Leaf. But I just can't get past the aesthetic issues. So any chance the L1 unit on the 2013 Leaf is any better in that regard? Any cheaper possibly?

 

[EVDRIVER]

It is narrower, and has the same cord length, the power plug is the same length as that is the code but it is a right angle plug. The Volt unit has the same cord size, it is really poorly made and bulky as a portable unit. Most of them break after being dropped a couple times. The unit you have is the older model designated by the orange button on the front, the new 2013 model does not have this button.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Pardon my ignorance. I'm looking at the 2013 Leaf and the facilities folks at work said I can use a dedicated 120V 20amp outlet.

If I perform the EVSE upgrade, will I be able to draw at 16 amps therefore reducing my charge time over the 12A? Will the 2013 Leaf allow it, or is it too early to tell?

I have a 120 mile roundtrip commute, 97% all highway and live in Chicago. Every bit will help to ensure a full charge when leaving the office.

thx.

your ONLY chance is 240 at work otherwise you will not get enough charge to make it home. Even with less than normal degradation; your LEAF will only make your commute for about 2 years maybe 2½ at the most. If you decide to get a LEAF, lease it.

If I were you, I would not get the LEAF

 

[Reddy]

Pardon my ignorance. I'm looking at the 2013 Leaf and the facilities folks at work said I can use a dedicated 120V 20amp outlet.

If I perform the EVSE upgrade, will I be able to draw at 16 amps therefore reducing my charge time over the 12A? Will the 2013 Leaf allow it, or is it too early to tell?

I have a 120 mile roundtrip commute, 97% all highway and live in Chicago. Every bit will help to ensure a full charge when leaving the office.

thx.

your ONLY chance is 240 at work otherwise you will not get enough charge to make it home. Even with less than normal degradation; your LEAF will only make your commute for about 2 years maybe 2½ at the most. If you decide to get a LEAF, lease it.

If I were you, I would not get the LEAF

Agreed! Read the posts by TaylorSFGuy who has a similar commute, but in Seattle. He's having trouble with the cold. Surely you will have real problems with cold in Chicago!

 

[EVDRIVER]

Actually,

The 2013 LEAF charger may accept a higher pilot signal so it may be able to charge above 12A with an upgrade. This needs to be tested.

 

[planet4ever]

Actually, The 2013 LEAF charger may accept a higher pilot signal so it may be able to charge above 12A with an upgrade. This needs to be tested.

Even if you could go to 16A 120v (which I doubt) that is only going to give you maybe 4 miles of cold Chicago winter driving per hour of charging. As Dave says, it won't be enough. Even 240v charging twice a day from VLBW to 100% is unlikely to be enough for a 120 mile commute after the first year, unless you take hypermiling instructions from an expert.

Ray

 

[GRA]

Actually, The 2013 LEAF charger may accept a higher pilot signal so it may be able to charge above 12A with an upgrade. This needs to be tested.

Even if you could go to 16A 120v (which I doubt) that is only going to give you maybe 4 miles of cold Chicago winter driving per hour of charging. As Dave says, it won't be enough. Even 240v charging twice a day from VLBW to 100% is unlikely to be enough for a 120 mile commute after the first year, unless you take hypermiling instructions from an expert.

Ray

And are willing to freeze during your winter commute. Like the wiseguys say, fuhgeddaboutit! And even if you do get 240 charging at work, I'd recommend a Ford Focus Electric over the Leaf, as the FFE has battery warming (and cooling), so your winter range won't drop as much. Realistically, though, I don't think either car has sufficient winter range for you to be happy doing this commute - your reserve margins would be minimal.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

the commute is simply too far for an EV unless you go with a RAV or a Tesla. the Focus EPA 76 or LEAF epa 73 still does not rectify the fact that you cannot regain enough charge during the day to make it home whether you charge at 12 amps (which you will) or at 16 amps (which you wont)

240 volt charging will allow you to do it 2-3 years then you will be where TaylorSF is and that boost charging on your commute BOTH ways to get to home and work.

the 2013 will give you longer range as the 2014 will as well and so on. for your distance, get 240 and lease.

 

[Phatcat73]

I was going to start a separate thread regarding my application and in seeking advice, however factors to consider with my long 60 mile (each way) commute:

1) 2013 Leaf has an estimated 14% mileage improvement based on Japanese testing. We're still waiting on EPA #s however 73* 1.14 = 83 miles 1 way range.

2) 2013 Leaf has a much more efficient heater

3) This will not be my only car. I have an ICE vehicle that I can trade with my wife for the cold days. Her commute is 10 miles round-trip.

My biggest dilemma will be lease vs buy. In IL I'm eligible for a 10% MSRP rebate (up to $4k), making the decision a bit more difficult. SL will get me about $3500 back in my pocket on top of the $7500 fed rebate. The IL rebate cannot be applied to a lease as corporations are not eligible.

Decisions decisions...

 

[davewill]

Decisions decisions...

Dude, if you insist on talking yourself into it, by all means do so, but I have to agree with the growing consensus. The car won't handle the commute you're asking of it very well. You will have to be sure of L2 charging at work every single day you drive it, and in cold weather, you'll still be pushing it. In your shoes, I'd get a Volt, or save my pennies for a Tesla or Rav4EV.

 

[Reddy]

....snip...
3) This will not be my only car. I have an ICE vehicle that I can trade with my wife for the cold days. Her commute is 10 miles round-trip.

OK, IF you get to charge at work (preferably L2) and you are willing to switch for most of the winter, then (presuming that your wife let's you have it back in the spring :lol: ), you have a chance, small, but a chance. With the rumored improved mileage on the 2013, slower driving (55-60 mph), and 9 hrs L1 at work, it might just work out. A decent (not necessarily extreme) hypermiler should make this pretty easily. However, you really need to have alternative charging on route just in case the weather turns. You know, against the wind both ways does happen.

Also, it's best to keep the car garaged to keep the battery warmer in the winter and take advantage of pre-heating. It's one of the best aspects of the car, especially for low mileage commutes. Finally, here are some links to various discussions about L1 vs L2 and cold driving. Hope these help:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11506#p265550

Reddy

 

[Phatcat73]

Thanks guys. All good info & much appreciated. I do have an alternate route to get to work that's a bit more direct, 6 miles shorter and has some city driving. It's 54 miles one way of which 38 are highway and 16 are driving through suburbs.

PS. Chicago just crossed the $4/gallon mark which is a new high record for this time of year.