Open Letter from Nissan, September 22, 2012

My Nissan Leaf Forum

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Truth in Advertising for Arizona, this should be present in bold print before the sale and communicated verbally by the dealer:

"On average the Leaf's battery pack will last just under 50,000 miles until end of life (70% battery capacity remaining), about half the national average."**

** Taken from Nissan's data to date. YMMV depending on other environmental factors, including whether you keep your Leaf in a refrigerated meat packing plant during the summer when not in use, or stored in your swimming pool at 70 degrees.
 
Stoaty said:
Truth in Advertising for Arizona, this should be present in bold print before the sale and communicated verbally by the dealer:

"On average the Leaf will last just under 50,000 miles until end of life (70% battery capacity remaining), about half the national average."**

** Taken from Nissan's data to date. YMMV depending on other environmental factors, including whether you keep your Leaf in a refrigerated meat packing plant during the summer when not in use, or stored in your swimming pool at 70 degrees.


+1 :lol:
 
Yes, actually I am. And Yes, actually I would.

downeykp said:
So I guess at this point, who is satisfied with Nissan's response? Additionally, is there anyone out there who would recommend a Leaf or any Nissan product to anyone? This is not standing by a customer!!
 
Stoaty said:
Truth in Advertising for Arizona, this should be present in bold print before the sale and communicated verbally by the dealer:

"On average the Leaf will last just under 50,000 miles until end of life (70% battery capacity remaining), about half the national average."**

** Taken from Nissan's data to date. YMMV depending on other environmental factors, including whether you keep your Leaf in a refrigerated meat packing plant during the summer when not in use, or stored in your swimming pool at 70 degrees.

+1

Minor corrections, "the Leaf" should perhaps be "the Leaf's battery pack", and a replacement pack installed price quoted.
 
copdoc said:
Yes, actually I am. And Yes, actually I would.

downeykp said:
So I guess at this point, who is satisfied with Nissan's response? Additionally, is there anyone out there who would recommend a Leaf or any Nissan product to anyone? This is not standing by a customer!!

+1
 
GenericUser said:
(See http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/27/nissans-99-mpg-smugmobile/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

It's always nice to hear from the Unification Church. Washington Times is owned by the Unification Church.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/2/rev-sun-myung-moon-founder-times-dies-92/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Stanton said:
copdoc said:
Yes, actually I am. And Yes, actually I would.

downeykp said:
So I guess at this point, who is satisfied with Nissan's response? Additionally, is there anyone out there who would recommend a Leaf or any Nissan product to anyone? This is not standing by a customer!!

+1

Really? You would? Wouldn't you want some of these issues fixed before you would possibly put someone in the position that many who are having capacity issues are in?
I have not heard that there is even a problem from Nissan. Check me if I am wrong, but trade-in values can't be good. I would rather err on the side of caution before recommending to anyone.
 
the original article about AESC back in 2008 mentioned a life of about 46k miles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
The key precept in crisis communication and crisis management is get out in front of the problem.

GM did that when they offered their buy-back program.
Nissan is offering talk and vague promises of action.
We are still waiting for them to get out in front of the problem.
This is not a solution, as so many here point out.

I am concerned about resale, about availability of a upgrade or replacement battery in 5-8 years.

(This is all said by someone who has a car with 16k miles after 17 months of ownership and negligible deterioration of battery. I own and live in the optimum coastal CA climate and commute at most 12 miles from the coast.)
 
thankyouOB said:
The key precept in crisis communication and crisis management is get out in front of the problem.

GM did that when they offered their buy-back program.
Nissan is offering talk and vague promises of action.
We are still waiting for them to get out in front of the problem.
This is not a solution, as so many here point out.

I am concerned about resale, about availability of a upgrade or replacement battery in 5-8 years.

(This is all said by someone who has a car with 16k miles after 17 months of ownership and negligible deterioration of battery. I own and live in the optimum coastal CA climate and commute at most 12 miles from the coast.)

+1 I am in the same boat. 16 mo. ownership 8500mi. no degradation.
 
Herm said:
the original article about AESC back in 2008 mentioned a life of about 46k miles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I read 43K miles from a 9.2 kWh pack to 80% capacity in seven years. Hopefully that translates to a much farther distance from a 24 kWh pack to 80% in seven years.
 
downeykp said:
Really? You would? Wouldn't you want some of these issues fixed before you would possibly put someone in the position that many who are having capacity issues are in?
I have not heard that there is even a problem from Nissan. Check me if I am wrong, but trade-in values can't be good. I would rather err on the side of caution before recommending to anyone.

The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time. Admit the issue, give the owners in hot places an escape from their lease or purchase, publish a battery replacement pack price, add a warranty on the batteries and perhaps Nissan can recover some of the goodwill they have lost.

I would recomend a Leaf to someone in Seattle or similar climates. I would caution someone in Arizona to plan on 70% loss of capacity in 35,000 miles (maybe more, maybe less).
 
Herm said:
the original article about AESC back in 2008 mentioned a life of about 46k miles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes that is less than the 62,500 miles over 5 years that Nissan uses for their average calculation. Perhaps the battery was improved some between the time the article was written and production of the Leaf.
 
WetEV said:
The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time. Admit the issue, give the owners in hot places an escape from their lease or purchase, publish a battery replacement pack price, add a warranty on the batteries and perhaps Nissan can recover some of the goodwill they have lost.
+1 I'm with you there!
WetEV said:
I would recomend a Leaf to someone in Seattle or similar climates. I would caution someone in Arizona to plan on 70% loss of capacity in 35,000 miles (maybe more, maybe less).
I agree things are somewhat clear in Seattle and Phoenix. But what about everywhere else? It is VERY hard to get any feel for how much life we will get out of our batteries in other climates. I'm pretty well convinced by what I see in Phoenix that it will pretty difficult to get past 10 years with the LEAF in this climate, even with very low miles. But I still have no idea what that means in terms of cost to replace the battery, so there is no way to figure out total cost of ownership.
 
evchels said:
It's sort of stating the obvious to say that this has become as much a communications issue as a technical one, but I've encouraged Nissan to jump into this thread (and forum) directly so that an actual conversation can be had...
Thank you for accepting the challenge of wrestling with this tar-baby. I respect, but do not envy those who choose to join your informal team, in part because there is no solid ground for you to stand on - Nissan holds all the technical data and decision authority. That being said, I am a Leaf owner who wants both you and Nissan to succeed, and all Leaf operators (purchase or lease) to be satisfied with their BEV and the support from Nissan.

We are located in the "middle ground" of the high desert with normal extremes of temperature somewhere between those of Phoenix and Chicago. One of the three Leafs in town has lost a capacity bar and is now only marginally able to make the unrecharged daily round-trip commute. It will soon be demoted to town car responsibilities and be replaced by a Tesla. Our Leaf has not yet lost a bar, but we do a lot of local non-freeway driving (15,000m/yr) which now requires mid-day charging in our garage where it used to require only a single nightly charge. Local charging away from home is not a practical option here, and on at least three occasions in the past month we have had to resort to our ICE Avalon solely because of the Leaf's reduced range. I (mistakenly) expected a reasonably constant decline in range to 80% over 5 years. That number was not warranted, but it was the figure we were given to expect, and to be honest, I thought it would turn out to be conservative. The bottom line for us is that we will make the Leaf work for our local driving, likely having to resort to a combination of more frequent charging and a higher percentage of 100% charges. Whether or not we will consider Nissan for our next car - or recommend Nissan to our friends - will depend on how this range issue is handled.
 
Stanton said:
copdoc said:
Yes, actually I am. And Yes, actually I would.
downeykp said:
So I guess at this point, who is satisfied with Nissan's response? Additionally, is there anyone out there who would recommend a Leaf or any Nissan product to anyone? This is not standing by a customer!!
+1
+1 also. Absolutely.

Of course, as I express in my analysis ("trash piece") :) of the test data, I am not sure something needs fixing --at least not generally. I do think that there are a couple of exceptions (the red Leafs in my post) to the rule for "normal" capacity degradation, and thus Nissan is on the right track to "work with individual owners to ensure their satisfaction." They can then also access their CarWings data and determine if there might be other factors affecting their capacity besides mileage and desert heat (freeway speeds? 100% charging? quick charging? climate control? drive vs. eco? all the above?). Perhaps they can even test those Leafs on a dedicated dynamometer to help pinpoint the issues (a couple of bad modules?) and address them. Hope so!
 
+1 Great post




GRA said:
Welcome to both Chelsea and Jeff; Nissan backing your presence here is long overdue, and I don't envy the job Jeff has. I have no financial interest or emotional stake in whether or not the Leaf is a success or failure, only a wish to see EVs as a whole succeed. Having dealt with a similar early adopter market a couple decades ago while selling off-grid AE systems, I've been both amazed and appalled at Nissan's approach to customer relations. If they'd deliberately set out to damage/destroy all the goodwill they'd earned by introducing the first reasonably mainstream EV, and to alienate the enthusiast early adopters who were (and should be) their best salespeople, they couldn't have done a more thorough job.

FWIW, here's my take on what needs to change:

1. Mark Perry needs to stop making statements about the Leaf. To put it as politely as I can, every time he does so he contradicts his previous statements and/or misstates facts, further damaging both his and Nissan's credibility.

2. Similarly, Carlo Bailo has to stop issuing letters to the Leaf community full of vapid platitudes and vague, weasel-worded generalities approved by lawyers and lifted direct from the owner's manual. These statements are seen as insulting and condescending by the informed, educated, technically savvy Leaf early adopter community. What is needed is not more repetition of statements along the line of 'heat, charging frequency, driving habits etc. may result in faster levels of degradation' - early adopters need and want specifics. How much heat, how long, what driving and charging habits? What is the driving range under a variety of conditions?

It's a scandal that an owner (Tony Williams) had to run his first Leaf repeatedly to turtle to provide owners with range data that should have been in the owners manual from day one. Unless Nissan engineers are far less competent than GM's (see "The Car that Could"), they had all this information. What is needed are graphs, charts and tables in the owners manual providing the info that the owners need to maximize the Leaf's performance, utility, range and longevity. Nissan has been trying to sell the Leaf as if its customers were the same mostly uninformed mass audience for their ICEs, rather than the curious, technically knowledgable early adopters that they are. This has to change, until EV performance, price and infrastructure has improved to the point that they will be adopted by mainstream users.

3. We need one point of contact with Nissan, and that should be you, Jeff. Tell us what you know, and don't be afraid to tell us if you don't; we'll wait while you consult the engineers who do have the answer, but be honest and open with us. And if THEY don't know, tell us that, too; we can accept it.

4. RegGuheert and others have made excellent suggestions as to steps Nissan can take to try and recover their reputation. While all those that deal with taking care of current owners are important, I see three that are most critical for re-establishing trust between the company and its customers, giving them confidence that Nissan will stand behind their cars in the long-term and aren't just interested in taking the money and running:

  • a) Admit there's a problem, and the lawyers be damned. If Nissan had done this up front and asked for the help of the customers, instead of denying, delaying and treating their customers like the ill-informed masses, they wouldn't be in this situation. It may cost them some millions of dollars in the short term, but that's far less than what continuing on their current path of denial will cost them in goodwill over the long haul. Ms. Bailo's announcement that there's nothing wrong with the batteries, but they're going to discuss compensation individually with some owners (presumably requiring them to sign NDAs as a condition of any settlement), is exactly the wrong approach if you're trying to establish a reputation for openness and honest dealing. Follow GM's lead on how they dealt with the Volt (non-) safety issue - a public statement by the CEO, that if you want return the car you can, no questions asked.

  • b) Stop selling cars in Arizona and other affected areas, and only lease them for short terms and with massive pre-purchase warning to potential buyers, until Nissan develops a battery chemistry or installs an active TMS that can deal with the conditions. As long as Nissan continues to sell the car in these unsuitable areas to unsuspecting members of the public, any other steps they take to try to re-establish the company's reputation for integrity will be seen as just lip-service.

  • c) Warranty battery capacity. All EV companies will have to do this to move into the mainstream, especially while battery technology remains so immature. Large numbers of people just aren't going to take a multi-thousand dollar flyer on how long a battery may last.

Good Luck to both of you - You'll need it.

Edit: cleaned up typos etc.
 
WetEV said:
The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time.
Yep. When I testdrove a Leaf yesterday I couldn't help noticing they advertised 96 - 110 mile range on the window. Even new that's unlikely and after just 20,000 miles the battery will have degraded to the point it's impossible. Nissan is deliberately misleading the public & breaking the law. (They should only advertise the EPA rating/range.)
 
Herm said:
the original article about AESC back in 2008 mentioned a life of about 46k miles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/05/aesc-lithium-io.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nissan Motor, NEC Corporation, and NEC TOKIN Corporation formed the joint venture Automotive Energy Supply Corporation (AESC) in 2007 to develop and market lithium-ion batteries for hybrids, plug-in hybrids and electric vehicles... AESC is currently producing laminated lithium-ion cells using a manganese spinel cathode material (LiMn2O4).... Based on AESC’s testing, the cells will retain more than 80% capacity after 7 years, including 70,000 km (43,496 miles).

For the next-generation of EV cells, AESC is working on a new cathode material of a nickel-mixed Mn spinel and a graphite carbon anode. The cell will feature an enlarged footprint, but will be thinner to increase heat discharge, and have a capacity of 30 Ah.

I really don't know what to say. I feel dumber with every revelation.
 
theaveng said:
WetEV said:
The Leaf's battery life issue is one that was known before the car was sold. The problem isn't with the car, or the battery, it is with the sales and advertising. Nissan is blowing this big time.
Yep. When I testdrove a Leaf yesterday I couldn't help noticing they advertised 96 - 110 mile range on the window. Even new that's unlikely and after just 20,000 miles the battery will have degraded to the point it's impossible. Nissan is deliberately misleading the public & breaking the law. (They should only advertise the EPA rating/range.)

If you only advertise EPA range, you are only telling the story of how far the car can go in the first few months to maybe two years (depending if you live in Seattle / Portland / downtown San Fran / England, or if you live in Phoenix).

In addition, the seasonal ambient temperature changes need to be clear... cold battery means reduced range, PLUS the use of the heater.
 
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