Potential new owner w/68 mile round trip commute

[Mountainlion22]

Hi Leaf owners, I am a potential buyer since I am FINALLY renting a REAL house starting this summer (i.e. access to an outdoor plug)

I've read through many of your scenarios, so thank you for the insight. Right now I'm still the phase of number crunching before purchasing, as unfortunately my move to the mountains will considerably increase my current 11 mile commute. My new commute door to door from Boulder Creek, CA to San Jose, CA will be 34 miles...great, as 68 miles is well within the EPA estimate. Unfortunately the mountain lifestyle comes with a considerable hill climb, Hwy 17, and San Jose freeways that run at a minimum of 75 mph if you aren't wanting to get smashed by a giant Range Rover. There are no dedicated EV plugs at my work but I'm hoping to sweet talk our facility manager or HR into letting me plug in via the shipping dock for a couple hours a day.

I'm hoping another mountain folk can share a similar experience, I do plan on driving more conservatively on the freeway in order to maximize my range. On the descent into the valley for work how many miles would the regenerative braking add to the distance possibly? (if at all)

Thank you for your comments!

 

[mwalsh]

You aren't going to need anything coming down the mountain (how far is that anyway?), in fact you could probably charge to ~80% and be close to 100% by the time you hit the valley. But I probably wouldn't suggest the LEAF to you without guaranteed mid-point charging. Getting back up the mountain and high highway speeds are going to kill you, and that's not even factoring in the range hit for winter.

You're also going to be really hard pressed after a few years and the accompanying battery degradation. So maybe lease rather than buy.

 

[dan2112]

Hi Leaf owners, I am a potential buyer since I am FINALLY renting a REAL house starting this summer (i.e. access to an outdoor plug)

I've read through many of your scenarios, so thank you for the insight. Right now I'm still the phase of number crunching before purchasing, as unfortunately my move to the mountains will considerably increase my current 11 mile commute. My new commute door to door from Boulder Creek, CA to San Jose, CA will be 34 miles...great, as 68 miles is well within the EPA estimate. Unfortunately the mountain lifestyle comes with a considerable hill climb, Hwy 17, and San Jose freeways that run at a minimum of 75 mph if you aren't wanting to get smashed by a giant Range Rover. There are no dedicated EV plugs at my work but I'm hoping to sweet talk our facility manager or HR into letting me plug in via the shipping dock for a couple hours a day.

I'm hoping another mountain folk can share a similar experience, I do plan on driving more conservatively on the freeway in order to maximize my range. On the descent into the valley for work how many miles would the regenerative braking add to the distance possibly? (if at all)

Thank you for your comments!

I don't have specific knowledge of the 17 commute but does it really move at 75 during commute hours? :shock:
Are you working near any quick chargers - check on Plugshare.
Do you access to charging at work?
The Bay area is very EV friendly.

Edit: Concur - lease don't buy.

 

[nosuchthing]

If you can't charge at work you are not going make it. Wait for MBB with 130-mile range (ext batt model) or Kia Soul with 100-mile.
17 is a nasty piece of road, but most importantly, you don't get back going downhill, what you expended going up hill, particularly if it's over 63 mph.

 

[Graffi]

When talking to management at your work do point out that due to your LONG commute into work each morning your car will require almost $1.00 of electricity that you would like to get from the company, which is more than paid for by your FREE overtime that you put in every day. This should end any question of you getting "FREE" electricity from the company, or them wanting to meter what you take so you can pay for it. Depending on your salary, the cost of electricity would be about 1 or 2 minutes of your time.

I concur that you do not want to charge to 100% at home as you would not get the benefit of regen on the drive down hill. At 40mph coasting down hill you will regen over 30kw.

As long as you are able to plug in during the day, even on 120v (better if you have something like a Jesla to plug into 240v) you can recharge to 100% for the drive home. In this case 34 miles is no problem for your climate.

 

[smkettner]

RAV4-EV is what you need.

 

[TomT]

Pretty much sold out now everywhere...

I would be hard pressed to recommend that he get a Leaf, be it lease or buy. It is just too chancy and fraught with possible failure!

RAV4-EV is what you need.

 

[nosuchthing]

RAV4-EV is what you need.

Isn't it being discontinued?

 

[cgaydos]

Welcome to the forum. You are going to get a mixed set of responses, some of them from LEAF early adopters who have become gravely disillusioned - not without merit - due to some poor public relations decisions from Nissan. Don't ignore them, but also take that into account.

68 miles in a single charge is easy when the LEAF is new, especially in the never-freezing climate you live in. Yes, the climb home will require more from the battery, but take it from someone who regularly climbs 2000 ft on the way home, your climb won't be that taxing for the LEAF (I know your area very well).

But even so there is no way I'd recommend a LEAF for a regular round trip of 68 miles without recharging mid-trip. The battery degrades, for one, and although the Santa Cruz mountains are generally not too hot, especially in the shade of the forest, San Jose can really bake in the summer and it's those hot temps that play the biggest role in battery degradation. Then there are those occasional days who you get a tinge of snow in the mountains there - the LEAF range suffers in the cold, and although you'd don't have extreme cold we still see a noticeable difference at 34F temps. Throw in the reality that occasionally you'll want to take a side trip and, well, the LEAF won't be a day-to-day car for you unless you can charge at work, ideally at level 2 charging to give you full flexibility.

Check out plugshare.com to see if there are some good charging options near you. Keep in mind that you'll be charging for several hours every day so a place with only 1 or 2 chargers won't work for you.

 

[smkettner]

RAV4-EV is what you need.

Isn't it being discontinued?

Yes. This is the last chance to get an EV that actually exceeds the expected range. I find the RAV to be far more versatile than my LEAF.
And yes it costs more.

 

[dan2112]

Pretty much sold out now everywhere...

I would be hard pressed to recommend that he get a Leaf, be it lease or buy. It is just too chancy and fraught with possible failure!

RAV4-EV is what you need.

There is a white one just listed at Fremont Toyota:
http://www.fremonttoyota.com/inventory.aspx?_new=true&_makef=Toyota&_model=rav4+ev

 

[cwerdna]

I don't have specific knowledge of the 17 commute but does it really move at 75 during commute hours? :shock: .

I work near 17 but only am on it very briefly for my commute. If you go in the direction of traffic during rush hour, there is no way it moves at 75 mph. Even outside it, I sure as heck wouldn't want to drive 75 mph in portions w/the twisties between SJ and Santa Cruz. Can't speak to Boulder Creek, specifically.

Ummmm... when I drive around Bay Area freeways during non-rush hour w/65 mph speed limits, I tend to drive ~68 to 72 mph. I don't stay at 75 mph unless plenty of others are doing that or faster and it's safe to to so.

No way I would be buying a Leaf for that commute (see previous responses, esp. re: degradation), unless you're prepared to dump it when the commute becomes too dicey w/o charging at work. If you can charge at 120 volts all day, that'd help. For a few hours only at 120 volts will not cut it, eventually.

 

[RonDawg]

Unfortunately the mountain lifestyle comes with a considerable hill climb, Hwy 17, and San Jose freeways that run at a minimum of 75 mph if you aren't wanting to get smashed by a giant Range Rover.

Ummmm... when I drive around Bay Area freeways during non-rush hour w/65 mph speed limits, I tend to drive ~68 to 72 mph. I don't stay at 75 mph unless plenty of others are doing that or faster and it's safe to to so.

Even in LA, there is a safe way to go 65 MPH, maybe even a bit less....stay in the right hand lane. I don't use the HOV lane unless traffic in the regular lane is going below about 35 MPH and the HOV lane is down to about 55-60.

The freeway route I use often has speeders in excess of 85 MPH going downhill, and I've never had a problem being able to stay at or just below 65. But I do this in the far right lane, only moving left to pass even slower traffic like semi trucks.

 

[CmdrThor]

RAV4-EV is what you need.

Isn't it being discontinued?

Yes. This is the last chance to get an EV that actually exceeds the expected range. I find the RAV to be far more versatile than my LEAF.
And yes it costs more.

The RAV4-EV is certainly not the "last chance" to get an EV that exceeds the range needed by the OP. He could get a Tesla Model S. Yes it costs more too.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Hi Leaf owners, I am a potential buyer since I am FINALLY renting a REAL house starting this summer (i.e. access to an outdoor plug)

I've read through many of your scenarios, so thank you for the insight. Right now I'm still the phase of number crunching before purchasing, as unfortunately my move to the mountains will considerably increase my current 11 mile commute. My new commute door to door from Boulder Creek, CA to San Jose, CA will be 34 miles...great, as 68 miles is well within the EPA estimate. Unfortunately the mountain lifestyle comes with a considerable hill climb, Hwy 17, and San Jose freeways that run at a minimum of 75 mph if you aren't wanting to get smashed by a giant Range Rover. There are no dedicated EV plugs at my work but I'm hoping to sweet talk our facility manager or HR into letting me plug in via the shipping dock for a couple hours a day.

I'm hoping another mountain folk can share a similar experience, I do plan on driving more conservatively on the freeway in order to maximize my range. On the descent into the valley for work how many miles would the regenerative braking add to the distance possibly? (if at all)

Thank you for your comments!

unless you change your "75 MPH" attitude, you will not make it. its been a long time since I lived in the area (1986) but the speed there was lucky to be 60 mph as I remembered it.

 

[jsongster]

Depending on where you work in the valley... If you could charge to 80% at one of silicon valley's CHAdeMO Quick Chargers on the way to work... you'd only need to top off at work with a trickle for a few hours. It all really depends on whether you are in for the crazy commute or the calm commute. If you do the crazy speeds on the way down... and the calm, right lane climb in the afternoon it is possible.

Scotts Valley really needs a QC and so does Santa Cruz.

Would make it trivial for lots of commuters. I want it just so I can be a tourist again in Santa Cruz!

 

[smkettner]

Pretty much sold out now everywhere...

I would be hard pressed to recommend that he get a Leaf, be it lease or buy. It is just too chancy and fraught with possible failure!

RAV4-EV is what you need.

Diane at Carson Toyota has three, one each color.

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1053&start=10

 

[TonyWilliams]

RAV4-EV is what you need.

Isn't it being discontinued?

Yes. This is the last chance to get an EV that actually exceeds the expected range. I find the RAV to be far more versatile than my LEAF.
And yes it costs more.

Uh, guys, they still have about 800-900 to sell, typically at less than 100 per month.

There will be new Rav4 EV's through 2014.

 

[TomT]

Interesting that they are selling THAT slowly; I was led to believe they were pretty much gone by now...

Uh, guys, they still have about 800-900 to sell, typically at less than 100 per month.
There will be new Rav4 EV's through 2014.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Interesting that they are selling THAT slowly; I was led to believe they were pretty much gone by now...

Uh, guys, they still have about 800-900 to sell, typically at less than 100 per month.
There will be new Rav4 EV's through 2014.

The only upticks have been when they increased the discount on the car, or a few upticks that can be attributed to lease turn-ins of BMW ActiveE (and didn't buy the i3) and now LEAF returns. The "news" that the EV press spewed wasn't news at all... it's all part of the plan from the beginning.


May 31, 2014 - 1744 sold of 2600 total to be sold in model years 2012 - 2014 to comply with California Air Resources Board - Zero Emissions Vehicle (CARB-ZEV) mandates:

On sale: September 24, 2012

Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269
Mar 2013 - 133 .......... 402
Apr 2013 - 70 ............ 472
May 2013 - 84 ............ 556
Jun 2013 - 44 ............ 600
July 2013 - 109 ......... 709
Aug 2013 - 231 ......... 940 (at this rate, 2600 will be complete 1st week April 2014)
Sep 2013 - 167 ........ 1107 (at this rate, 2600 will be complete 1st week July 2014)
Oct 2013 - 91 ......... 1198 (at this rate, 2600 will be sold out 2nd week of Jan 2015)
Nov 2013 - 62 ......... 1260 (at this rate, 2600 will be sold out 3rd week of Aug 2015)
Dec 2013 - 28 ......... 1288 (almost halfway to sold out !!!)
Jan 2014 - 63 ......... 1351 (even with a $14k lease incentive... ouch)
Feb 2014 - 101 ........ 1452
Mar 2014 - 73 ......... 1526
Apr 2014 - 69........... 1595 (from Aug 31, 2013 guess, sold out by first week of April 2014)
May 2014 - 149 ......... 1744
Jun 2014 - ............
July 2014 - ........... (from Sep 30, 2013 guess, sold out by 1st week of July 2014)
Aug 2014 - ............
Sep 2014 - ............
Oct 2014 - ............
Nov 2014 - ............
Dec 2014 - ............
Jan 2015 - ............ (from Oct 31, 2013 guess, sold out by 2nd week of Jan 2015)

****************************************

Why 2600 cars?


http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levprog/cleandoc/clean_2009_my_hev_tps_12-09.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2012 through 2014 Requirements. A manufacturer must meet the total ZEV obligation with ZEVs or ZEV credits generated by such vehicles, excluding NEVs and Type 0 ZEVs, equal to at least 0.79% of its annual sales

Zero Emission Vehicle Credits

Why are credit balances in units of grams/mile Non-Methane Organic Gases (g/mile NMOG)?

When credits are earned they are multiplied by the g/mile NMOG fleet average requirement for the appropriate model year. Please note that in the ZEV Regulation g/mi NMOG is used only as index (which decreases over time)—it is the “currency” that credits are stored in and does not represent actual values of g/mi NMOG. The intent of this multiplier was to reward early production of vehicles.


Fleet Average Non-Methane Organic Gas Exhaust Mass Emission
Requirements for Light-duty Vehicle Weight Classes
(50,000 Mile Durability Vehicle Basis)

Model Year - Fleet Average NMOG (grams per mile), All PCs; LDTs
---------- 0-3750 lbs LVW ---- LDTs 3751 lbs. LVW - 8500 lbs. GVW

2010+ ------- 0.035 --------------- 0.043


I will bet that the difference between 0.035 and 0.043 NMOG multiplier between a passenger car and light duty truck over 3750 pounds is yet another reason why Toyota used the Rav4 EV.

Toyota will build 900,000 cars for California sales in model years 2012-2014, and Toyota will build 2600 pure ZEVs that are over 3750 pounds or more, so:

(2600 total Rav4 EVs * 3 credits per 100 mile range car) * 0.043 = 335.4 "NMOG" CARB-ZEV credits for all three years. In the fiscal year ending Sept 30, 2013, Toyota carried a credit balance of 876.084 NMOG-CARB-ZEV.

I have no idea what balance they may have carried over since 1990. The 1107 Rav4 EVs * 3 = 3321 * 0.043 = 143.802 earned NMOG credits for California fiscal year.

(2600 total sold * 3 credit per car) / 900,000 Toyota cars sold in California in three years = 0.867%, and they need 0.79%. It looks like the perfect number, with a bit to spare. But that's not completely accurate, because some of these cars are being sold out of California and they either get zero or maybe one credit per car. It may get closer to the 0.79% threshold than Toyota would like. There is a $5000 penalty per credit not earned with a car, plus they would have to buy the credits on the open market.

*************************************

Toyota does get credit for the unsold Scion iQ EV cars:

7.4 ZEV Credits for Advanced Technology Demonstration Programs.

In model years 2009 through 2014, ZEVs and Enhanced AT PZEVs, excluding NEVs, placed in a California advanced technology demonstration program for a period of two or more years, may earn ZEV credits even if it is not “delivered for sale” or registered with the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV). To earn such credits, the manufacturer must demonstrate to the reasonable satisfaction of the Executive Officer that the vehicles will be regularly used in applications appropriate to evaluate issues related to safety, infrastructure, fuel specifications or public education, and that for 50 percent or more of the first two years of placement the vehicle will be operated in California. Such a vehicle is eligible to receive the same allowances and credits that it would have earned if placed in service. To determine vehicle credit, the model- year designation for a demonstration vehicle shall be consistent with the model-year designation for conventional vehicles placed in the same timeframe. Manufacturers may earn credit for as many as 25 vehicles per model, per ZEV state, per year under this section C.7.4. A manufacturer’s vehicles in excess of the 25-vehicle cap will not be eligible for advanced technology demonstration program credits.

(c) Cap on Use of Credits (for ATDPs).

(1) ZEVs. Credits earned or allocated by ZEVs pursuant to this section C.7.5, not including all credits earned by the vehicle itself, may be used to satisfy up to one-tenth of a manufacturer’s ZEV obligation in any given model year, and may be used to satisfy up to one- tenth of a manufacturer’s ZEV obligation which must be met with ZEVs

***********

The upcoming Toyota hydrogen game, starting model year 2015 after the Rav4 EV ends in model year 2014:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ompetitive-with-electrics-by-2030-toyota-says Soichiro Okudaira, chief officer of Toyota's R&D group, told Automotive News Europe that lower production costs will make fuel-cell vehicles competitive with electric cars by 2030