public parking frustration

[Wufnu]

Ok, so I think this may actually illustrate my point. Assume (for the moment) that public chargers all charged on the order of what you experienced. IF this were the case, would you choose to charge at home primarily and only utilize the public chargers when the range of your travels for the day required it? I can see "occasional range charge" not being an issue for most people. This should decrease the demand for said chargers and thus reduce the amount of infrastructure required. The assumption I'm making here, of course, is that the range of BEVs will be such that buyers won't have to charge away from home on a regular basis; either the range will impede the sales (we already see this even with free chargers don't we?) or the range of vehicles will increase (also appears to be in the plans of car manufacturers).

I think you're on point in this line of thinking. If I had a vehicle with 200 mile range, I'd never have to charge away from home (even taking into effect battery degradation and temperature effects) except when I want to travel 250 miles to visit my parents. As with most things in life, we should be pursuing a happy medium. It would also be nice if the investment and maintenance costs were lower for the people putting up charging stations. My thought was to have the EV owners own their own portable EVSE and the infrastructure need only be a standardized outlet (controlled, of course, and capable of running credit/debit cards). That's much more manageable, and durable, than a sophisticated and networked station.

Make it easy to implement infrastructure, give a financial incentive to do so, and increase range thus lowering public dependence upon infrastructure = winning combination.

 

[Slow1]

Ok, so I think this may actually illustrate my point. Assume (for the moment) that public chargers all charged on the order of what you experienced. IF this were the case, would you choose to charge at home primarily and only utilize the public chargers when the range of your travels for the day required it? I can see "occasional range charge" not being an issue for most people. This should decrease the demand for said chargers and thus reduce the amount of infrastructure required. The assumption I'm making here, of course, is that the range of BEVs will be such that buyers won't have to charge away from home on a regular basis; either the range will impede the sales (we already see this even with free chargers don't we?) or the range of vehicles will increase (also appears to be in the plans of car manufacturers).

I think you're on point in this line of thinking. If I had a vehicle with 200 mile range, I'd never have to charge away from home (even taking into effect battery degradation and temperature effects) except when I want to travel 250 miles to visit my parents. As with most things in life, we should be pursuing a happy medium. It would also be nice if the investment and maintenance costs were lower for the people putting up charging stations. My thought was to have the EV owners own their own portable EVSE and the infrastructure need only be a standardized outlet (controlled, of course, and capable of running credit/debit cards). That's much more manageable, and durable, than a sophisticated and networked station.

Make it easy to implement infrastructure, give a financial incentive to do so, and increase range thus lowering public dependence upon infrastructure = winning combination.

Perhaps that could well be part of the solution. Certainly much less expensive for a business (hotel or whatever) to provide a well placed set of 240v plugs. However you aren't going to make a portable EVSE that can pump anywhere near what you need in order to charge quickly at mile 200 of your 250 mile trip to the parents. You will need a DCQC of some sort there (especially as your trip hits two charge points - i.e. over 400 miles). So these DCQC stations could well charge a premium for the service as you will only use on long trips. That, I believe, could build into a viable market.

It is the local charging stations (i.e. at the grocery store or restaurant) that I really see no long term viability for. I just really don't see the American public being willing to pay a premium to charge everywhere they go with short-range BEVs - subsidized while the bugs of EVs are worked out is fine, but long term I'll be shocked if they are a significant part of the solution.

 

[minispeed]

A good thing for pay to charge would be to add pay for parking in there too. The rate should be based on kwhr while you are charging and after that it should switch over to a rate for taking up the spot.

$0.85 per kwhr was mentioned but what should they charge once you are done charging? First half hour rate $2 maybe, then double it every 30min till it's at a max. This would eleminate the PIP and Energi's taking up a spot just because it's closer or they feel it's "reserved for them". If they aren't willing to come back and unplug then gas is cheaper.

Public free chargers should also be set up with multiple J1772 per unit and split the current as more plug in, example 1 unit pulls 40amp max with 4 plugs. If 4 cars are plugged in you're getting 10amps at 240. Any place like a train station or job where people are going to be there over 8hrs L1 should be the standard for free charging.

 

[Wufnu]

A good thing for pay to charge would be to add pay for parking in there too. The rate should be based on kwhr while you are charging and after that it should switch over to a rate for taking up the spot.

$0.85 per kwhr was mentioned but what should they charge once you are done charging? First half hour rate $2 maybe, then double it every 30min till it's at a max. This would eleminate the PIP and Energi's taking up a spot just because it's closer or they feel it's "reserved for them". If they aren't willing to come back and unplug then gas is cheaper.

Public free chargers should also be set up with multiple J1772 per unit and split the current as more plug in, example 1 unit pulls 40amp max with 4 plugs. If 4 cars are plugged in you're getting 10amps at 240. Any place like a train station or job where people are going to be there over 8hrs L1 should be the standard for free charging.

The $0.85/hour is what the hotels using Chargepoint are charging in Columbus, GA. That rate is for the first four hours; after that it's $10/hour. Therefore, you can charge for up to four hours before your wallet takes a pummeling.

 

[minispeed]

A good thing for pay to charge would be to add pay for parking in there too. The rate should be based on kwhr while you are charging and after that it should switch over to a rate for taking up the spot.

$0.85 per kwhr was mentioned but what should they charge once you are done charging? First half hour rate $2 maybe, then double it every 30min till it's at a max. This would eleminate the PIP and Energi's taking up a spot just because it's closer or they feel it's "reserved for them". If they aren't willing to come back and unplug then gas is cheaper.

Public free chargers should also be set up with multiple J1772 per unit and split the current as more plug in, example 1 unit pulls 40amp max with 4 plugs. If 4 cars are plugged in you're getting 10amps at 240. Any place like a train station or job where people are going to be there over 8hrs L1 should be the standard for free charging.

The $0.85/hour is what the hotels using Chargepoint are charging in Columbus, GA. That rate is for the first four hours; after that it's $10/hour. Therefore, you can charge for up to four hours before your wallet takes a pummeling.

Wow that's the one place I figured it wouldn't work since the majority of customers are staying overnight.... unless the room is by the hour too. lol

 

[donald]

The moral dynamics of EVs, in respect of too few charge points, is only going to lead to fist fights and worse when EVs become 'mainstream'.

I don't understand why people aren't seeing a bigger picture of the future here. Charge points have to be capable of being reserved. It'll just be the wild west out there when your average thug gets a hold of an EV and wants to charge it. There has to be some enforceable civilising protocols in place - charge point booking is one route.

 

[minispeed]

The moral dynamics of EVs, in respect of too few charge points, is only going to lead to fist fights and worse when EVs become 'mainstream'.

I don't understand why people aren't seeing a bigger picture of the future here. Charge points have to be capable of being reserved. It'll just be the wild west out there when your average thug gets a hold of an EV and wants to charge it. There has to be some enforceable civilising protocols in place - charge point booking is one route.

But how will you enforce the reservation? Will the spot not work if you don't have one? If so what happens when someone is near dead and sitting waiting for you to show up for your reservation, you show up late but in that time they could have charged enough to make it to another station or home. Then you have conflict. If the machine will work lets say 5 min after your reservation if you're a no show what happens when you're 6 min late, again you have conflict. If it will just work on a ticket/tow system then it relies on the guy with the reservation calling it in on the guy without, again conflict. What happens when the owner of the previous reservation doesn't leave on time and the next guy is sitting waiting, more conflict?

With first come first serve the potential for conflict is minimized by not giving anyone the sense of being morally right in confronting another person.

 

[asimba2]

My area is plagued with poor signage and Prius owners that think their cars are electric. I cannot rely on public charging at all, but that's okay as the Leaf still easily meets my needs.

 

[donald]

But how will you enforce the reservation? Will the spot not work if you don't have one?

Yes, it will not operate when the reserved time is booked, except for the bookee.

If so what happens when someone is near dead and sitting waiting for you to show up for your reservation

They wait, just as they would if someone was already using the spot. Why wouldn't they wait?

But in any case they will use one of the other chargers at that location that are first-come-first-served. They press a button on the machine and it gives them a ticket that tells them when their reservation on that FCFS charger is due, and for how long they have got, and they queue if there are people already infront and waiting.

What do you expect to happen if people are already waiting to use a charger infront of you? One way or the other, there has to be a civilising protocol to ensure the process is ordered, and fairly ordered. There also have to be several chargers at each location, not just one.

(Anything that is 'serial' in nature is doomed to systemic failure when something goes wrong. e.g. why are broken down trains more of a problem than broken down cars? Multiple outlets are needed at any one charging location.)

 

[cwerdna]

My area is plagued with poor signage and Prius owners that think their cars are electric. I cannot rely on public charging at all, but that's okay as the Leaf still easily meets my needs.

Hopefully you've left those guys notes.

FWIW, although the term's commonly used, Nissan kept referred to their Altima Hybrid has an HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle). Even most Prius drivers I know of wouldn't use that acronym or say that...

 

[DaveEV]

My area is plagued with poor signage and Prius owners that think their cars are electric.

In their defense, the signage clearly says "Hybrid Alt Fuel Parking Only". Those spots need proper signage, preferably signs that say "Charging Station - Electric Car Parking Only While Charging" or similar.

 

[cwerdna]

My area is plagued with poor signage and Prius owners that think their cars are electric.

In their defense, the signage clearly says "Hybrid Alt Fuel Parking Only". Those spots need proper signage, preferably signs that say "Charging Station - Electric Car Parking Only While Charging" or similar.

Whoops! Good catch!

 

[joetesta]

I was contemplating leaving a note that if it happens again they'll have 4 flat tires.

You are delusional, not to mention a borderline sociopath.

As everyone is saying, you can't ASSUME the Leaf driver will do anything unless you COMMUNICATE other than by an eye twitch.

You're not entitled to the juice, and should have a "Plan B" in case you're not able to charge there. If you don't have a backup plan, then maybe the LEAF is just not for you.

Thanks for the great advice!

As I already said, I do have a plan B, but you didn't bother to read the thread before calling me names, did you? If you can't help being a troll, then maybe the Internet is just not for you.

 

[joetesta]

To even think that threatening to or actually flattening someone's tires is appropriate seems way off base to me. Public chargers are provided to be used by anyone, generally on a first come, first served. It sounds to me like you feel entitled to charge to keep from being "stranded."

No, absolutely not. Because I was there before the other car and operated under the assumption the charger is to be used on a "first come, first served" basis, I feel entitled to charge BEFORE cars that come AFTER mine - else I would not have left my car to begin with. Being "stranded" by inconsiderate drivers is what raises my frustration level to the point where I'd contemplate threatening to "return the favor".

Maybe the white Leaf didn't plug me in, the driver was very vague when I asked 3 days later ("I plug a lot of cars in and don't remember") and now (because of this incident) I no longer leave my car there, so you can all breathe a sigh of relief, that no contemplation of threatening notes will be happening as a result of my car not being plugged in.