Read This -->>> No New 2013 Battery

[Nubo]

Why "read my lips" became famous:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Aldric; you are one of the few that is making any sense.

the Volt is still an over-priced, over complicated piece of machinery that imm; is EONS below the LEAF, period. we all knew that the Volt would never sell because it was simply too much money. (if it would have been sized in the roomy mid size it would have been a different story but someone decided that 4" was too much, idiots...)

so the resale or re lease on a Volt will have to turn over 2-3 times to make any money which likely wont happen because the car will be too old by then. it still will be using X year old gasoline technology.

but OTOH; the LEAF. i have to say that buying out my lease and paying anything under $7500 for a brand new pack replacement will put me way ahead of any other option and only at that time will it bring me up near the cost of the Volt.

but say GW runs amok and Oly starts to experience PH-like weather and i have a 25% loss of range in 3 years. i dump my LEAF.

now, Nissan has a 3 YO vehicle. they got (more out of me than they should have!) about $19K out of me (my residual is $15,694)

they put a new pack in for...(probably less than $5K for them) whatever and resell the car for what? a new battery, gas at $4.50 a gallon, they could probably get $25,000 for it in my area. (used LEAF prices are not taking a dive around here) or simply re-lease it.

now, all that is major speculation. what i think will happen is that Nissan will put in new pack and lease/sell them for $20,000 all day long. that puts the LEAF in the same price bracket as a newer upscale used gas car which is the biggest market in the US today

 

[bowthom]

I know folks keep clinging to a new 2013 with whatever upgrade that makes their LEAF experience better.

Has Chelsea Sexton contacted anyone here yet? It seems silly that they would assemble an advisory panel without owners.

I sent her a PM and have not heard back yet.

 

[TEG]

(redacted)

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Has Chelsea Sexton contacted anyone here yet? It seems silly that they would assemble an advisory panel without owners.

i am guessing that after a very short scan of this forum, an owner would be her last choice

 

[evchels]

Well if true that they are not upgrading the battery, then that is quite a buzkill.

I asked about this a few times while in NY with them. (We did also do the video, which I assume will be posted in the next few days.) Basically it seems to come down to incremental improvements through chemistry, but no meaningful improvements in range. One could hope they're learning to lowball, but I didn't get the sense we should get our hopes up.

what is the cost of a new battery, installed, oh lurking nissan man?

I obviously can't and won't speak for Nissan (so you're welcome to wait for lurking man to respond!) but did ask about this, both on and off video. I'm a little nervous about the incoming produce from the group because I wasn't able to get absolute answers to a few questions, including this one- though neither did I really expect Andy to rattle a number off the top of his head. And the unfortunate reality is also that now that there are lawsuits and lawyers involved, he had to have had a list of directives from their own legal team about off-limits topics and statements.

However...I know their line of thought has been more that any packs replaced in the first several years would be due to defect, and that a) they'd replace necessary modules, not whole packs, and b) it wouldn't be at customer cost, so no need for a retail pack price at this point. They're also concerned about the "scare" potential of a current price, out of context, to potential new EV drivers. But I explained the desire based on the capacity/range issues some of you are seeing, and he did commit to getting a price if it was important to the drivers. I'll keep on that one.

Has Chelsea Sexton contacted anyone here yet? It seems silly that they would assemble an advisory panel without owners.

i am guessing that after a very short scan of this forum, an owner would be her last choice

Ok, that made me smile! But no, I'm really only looking at current owners/lessees at the moment. I have considered including one or two who aren't, because I do think it's important for Nissan to hear the perspective of those who haven't chosen a LEAF, and why. Similarly, my hope is that the advisory group can both help Nissan better engage with current drivers as well as more effectively market the LEAF to and communicate with future drivers. So I won't say that there absolutely won't be an exception to the rule, but current LEAF drivers are my priority.

Chelsea has made contact with LEAF owners, including me. She was with Andy Palmer in New York Tuesday. Things are getting assembled, and like all projects, take time, effort, and patience.

Thank you, I appreciate the grace. I have indeed been in "homework mode"- talking to various drivers, percolating as these threads have evolved on the forums, soliciting nominations, etc. I have no illusions about being able to assemble a group that everyone will be 100% happy with, but I won't pick a group for the sake of speed either.

I'm heading out to more meetings, though I know there were more comments/questions and will come back to them. If it's of interest, am also happy to start/participate in a separate thread on the advisory group itself, thoughts on membership, etc.

 

[thankyouOB]

thank you for this, Chelsea.
I know I have been insistent on a price. Let me explain what is probably obvious.
A few factoids that may help Nissan in analyzing why this request is useful to us all: i have no degradation of range (or undetectable) after 17 months and 17k miles. I can still make my daily commute of 50 miles roundtrip with the same or about the same number of bars and amount of range remaining.


Regardless, I want to know the cost of a battery installed. I want to have a reliable way of figuring the cost of my passion for the LEAF and EV driving. I cant do that if I dont have the replacement cost, even if I am one of the lucky who goes 8-10 years before replacing the battery.
I also have this issue that I share with others with a longer commute: I would keep the car and replace the battery sooner if my regular side trip of 65 miles goes out of reach. I do not want to rely on my ICE for that.

 

[evnow]

Why "read my lips" became famous:

Yes - the title of this thread made me scratch my head.

Does Tony not know the (historical) context or was he being ironic ?

 

[WetEV]

That $5000 price turned out to be bunk, since it's a remanufactured battery, not a new battery, plus there's no evidence that the $5K figure is accurate,

There are at least three people that have stated $5000. Two seem fairly trustworthy, and the other is on the "trust but verify list".

New or "remanufactured battery", if the cells are new doesn't make much difference. Reuse of the connectors, cables, hardware isn't a problem.

Chelsea,

Nissan could end rumors, much of the anger and fear by announcing a price, even in the future. As in "Nissan commits to exchanging a used battery pack from all 2011 and 2012 Leafs for a new pack or a pack with all new cells at $x"

Note that battery packs in hot places may need to be replaced 40,000 miles or so (if we use 70% as EOL). I suspect all cells will need to be replaced as all cells will be at similar loss. Is this correct? Will this be a "wouldn't be at customer cost" event?

What about 60,000 miles? 80,000 miles?

Suppose I hit 100,000 miles. I would expect to pay for a new pack anytime after 100,000 miles, so do I have a path to continue to drive the Leaf 30 miles round trip to work?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Why "read my lips" became famous:

Yes - the title of this thread made me scratch my head.

Does Tony not know the (historical) context or was he being ironic ?

Yes, I know the history and the irony.... it's a title, guys!!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan could end rumors, much of the anger and fear by announcing a price, even in the future. As in "Nissan commits to exchanging a used battery pack from all 2011 and 2012 Leafs for a new pack or a pack with all new cells at $x"

Note that battery packs in hot places may need to be replaced 40,000 miles or so (if we use 70% as EOL). I suspect all cells will need to be replaced as all cells will be at similar loss. Is this correct? Will this be a "wouldn't be at customer cost" event?

What about 60,000 miles? 80,000 miles?

Suppose I hit 100,000 miles. I would expect to pay for a new pack anytime after 100,000 miles, so do I have a path to continue to drive the Leaf 30 miles round trip to work?

All very rational ideas, but keep in mind what Nissan is now up against with lawsuits. Granted, they weren't just going to give us the information without a huge squabble, but I think the various laws (state and federal) regarding parts availability are a good angle for a suit. It's sad that's the only guaranteed way to get this company to move.

But, hopefully they will come to realize that a WHOLE bunch of nervous ninny worry would be eliminated with facts. Facts backed up by a company that we should have never had to second guess. Nobody thought these batteries were cheap, and when they announced $600 for a four-cell module, some anti-EV paper in UK was happy to celebrate the 48 * $600 = $ 28,800 battery (if I remember, they called it a $39,000 battery).

Obviously, the battery ASSEMBLY on exchange basis will be some number between $5000 - $29,000, plus installation (should be cheap... a couple hours labor max). I predict a new battery will still be in the 24kWh * $500 retail/kWh = $12,000 area exchange, and a remanufactured one in the $5000-$12,000 range.

I seriously doubt there were many who did not buy the car because of any of the those prices. That's because nobody expected Nissan not to "have our backs" if there was a problem. Now that we know that isn't the case (again, the three turned in cars in Phoenix weren't voluntary, unilateral philanthropy from Nissan... that was putting out a fire of loud, complaining owners with cars with major problems).

So, hopefully, Nissan will give us the battery price now, rather than waiting for discovery / deposition / more lawsuits / state and federal regulators / etc, to get us the information. If they then honestly advertised the true Nissan calculated battery End Of Life for a REAL 12,000 average Phoenix driver at less then 4 years, and how much it costs to replace, informed buyers are likely to make a decision either way.

As has been suggested, and Tesla has done, throw a replacement battery into the original deal, and at some agreed to point / threshold / time / mileage, you get a new battery in that market. The dealers will LOVE it, selling more product in the finance department, and getting warranty repairs in the service department.

 

[surfingslovak]

But, hopefully they will come to realize that a WHOLE bunch of nervous ninny worry would be eliminated with facts. Facts backed up by a company that we should have never had to second guess. Nobody thought these batteries were cheap, and when they announced $600 for a four-cell module, some anti-EV paper in UK was happy to celebrate the 48 * $600 = $ 28,800 battery (if I remember, they called it a $39,000 battery).

Obviously, the battery ASSEMBLY on exchange basis will be some number between $5000 - $29,000, plus installation (should be cheap... a couple hours labor max). I predict a new battery will still be in the 24kWh * $500 retail/kWh = $12,000 area exchange, and a remanufactured one in the $5000-$12,000 range.

I seriously doubt there were many who did not buy the car because of any of the those prices. That's because nobody expected Nissan not to "have our backs" if there was a problem. Now that we know that isn't the case (again, the three turned in cars in Phoenix weren't voluntary, unilateral philanthropy from Nissan... that was putting out a fire of loud, complaining owners with cars with major problems).

So, hopefully, Nissan will give us the battery price now, rather than waiting for discovery / deposition / more lawsuits / state and federal regulators / etc, to get us the information. If they then honestly advertised the true Nissan calculated battery End Of Life for a REAL 12,000 average Phoenix driver at less then 4 years, and how much it costs to replace, informed buyers are likely to make a decision either way.

+1!

Renault is doing battery leases in Europe. If I remember correctly, this was considered at some point in the evolution of the US Leaf program, but it was dropped because of customer objections or legal concerns. What if it wasn't a lease though? What if it was called comprehensive battery warranty or optional battery replacement program? It could be paid upfront or in installments. Just more food for thought.

 

[GRA]

+1!

Renault is doing battery leases in Europe. If I remember correctly, this was considered at some point in the evolution of the US Leaf program, but it was dropped because of customer objections or legal concerns. What if it wasn't a lease though? What if it was called comprehensive battery warranty or optional battery replacement program? It could be paid upfront or in installments. Just more food for thought.

Legal issues. AIUI, the way the federal incentive was written only cars sold/leased in drivable condition qualified, and that's unlikely to change given any of the most likely outcomes of the election.

 

[September]

+1!

Renault is doing battery leases in Europe. If I remember correctly, this was considered at some point in the evolution of the US Leaf program, but it was dropped because of customer objections or legal concerns. What if it wasn't a lease though? What if it was called comprehensive battery warranty or optional battery replacement program? It could be paid upfront or in installments. Just more food for thought.

I live in a market (Ireland) where both cars are "competing" between each other. There are significant problems with battery lease. First of all is limit on mileage and fact that you have agree in advance limit for many years to come. Second is cost of vehicle - Fluence is cheaper by cost of 4 years of battery leasing with some very low annual mileage limit. There is also no QC on the cars. To buy a LEAF you have some restrictions, like maybe you should not commute more than 100km per day and not travel more than 500km per day, which covers majority of drivers on this small island. To buy Renault you have to add limit on total km travelled in a year and forget about longer journeys. You still buy a car that you own and which depreciates and some unknown rate (EV is new and who knows how it will work out), but you get all limits of lease (have to keep car for X years and drive X miles per annum) with extra insult you cannot go around too much.

Having said that Renault Kangoo minivans are very practical, loading space is impressive and I saw one in Irish Post Office painting going around Galway few days ago. There is 2 and 5 seater version, but ICE Kangoo's have also 7 seater versions. With totally flat floor I see no reason to not release 7 seater EV in future. However funny it sounds I would consider it as a second car, with LEAF for cross country journeys... ;-)

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

What if it was called comprehensive battery warranty or optional battery replacement program?

Like the Radio Shack "Battery of the month club" ? (man am I showing my age or what)

Couple questions:

1) Exactly what is a "remanufactured" battery anyway?

2) There was some chatter on other threads that the 2013 battery wouldn't have any greater capacity, but it would be lighter. Is that rumor still in play?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

What if it was called comprehensive battery warranty or optional battery replacement program?

Like the Radio Shack "Battery of the month club" ? (man am I showing my age or what)

Couple questions:

1) Exactly what is a "remanufactured" battery anyway?

2) There was some chatter on other threads that the 2013 battery wouldn't have any greater capacity, but it would be lighter. Is that rumor still in play?

what you see in EVERY battery store. nearly all "new" batteries are remanufactured. now the Nissan pack since there is not 50 million of them recycled every year is probably going to be new for quite some time.

i think we have taken the word "remanufactured" to mean refurbished or even "retread"

in remanufactured battery scenarios; the outter case is reused. they simply gut them, replace the innnards, put in new electrolyte and reseal them. they are not compromised in any way

 

[TonyWilliams]

i think we have taken the word "remanufactured" to mean refurbished or even "retread"

Old terms from aviation:

FAR 52.211-5 "Remanufactured - means factory rebuilt to original specifications. The factory is the manufacturer, not another factory.

REMANUFACTURE IS NOT:

Repair/Overhaul:
An imprecise term usually meaning the product has had enough work to make it operational again.
A root cause analysis is usually not performed in the repair process which means the product may not perform like a new product.

Restored/Reconditioned:
FAR 52.211-5 "Reconditioned - means restored to the original normal operating condition by readjustments and material replacement"

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

It just seems funny think of the Leaf battery modules being "remanufactured" vs making new ones. What can you save from the old one, the tin box? Is that even worth the effort?

 

[evnow]

Yes, I know the history and the irony.... it's a title, guys!!

Yes - but the title has to convey what you intend to convey, right ?

The title, given the context, means that even though Nissan is saying there is no new battery in 2013, there will be one ...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, I know the history and the irony.... it's a title, guys!!

Yes - but the title has to convey what you intend to convey, right ?

The title, given the context, means that even though Nissan is saying there is no new battery in 2013, there will be one ...

Hence, the irony.. for me, at least. Ok, I thought it was clever for the nanosecond that I thought about it. I'll change the title.