Rethinking some public charging costs and issues

[jlsoaz]

[note, I'm putting this in the main owners forum because it is only a bit about "EVSE equipment" and more about broader public charging issues that I have run into.]

I have recently been using public charging more often in Tucson. Around here the networks are mostly Blink, a little bit of Chargepoint, and now GOe3 with direct credit card billing. I'm more or less ok with GOe3's billing structure on CHAdeMO, and have been grateful over the years that a couple of key Blink L2s have worked reliably for me, but recently I have been through a couple of $10+ L2 sessions that I could have done without because I couldn't break away from work and Blink can't seem to re-work its billing structure to stop billing once the battery is charged.

Also, I have run into (not the first time) the issue with parking garages and lots where many of them (particularly city-owned?) will not consider allowing a person simply to plug in at L1, even for a fee. [There was one key exception to this, a private lot near the airport that has thus won my business, and a few others drivers' business.]

All of this leads me to question: isn't public charging in some ways more complicated and expensive than it needs to be? Can we get to the point where we can take a look at what the hurdles are to allowing folks to plug in and charge at lower fees, and perhaps reduce the cost of establishing the places to plug in? I'm just guessing that some of these problems can be solved by breaking them down a bit further and identifying some possible solutions.

 

[jamieo]

It is a little more expensive than it needs to be, but that may change over time. I rarely use public chargers (paid or free) just because I generally don't need to. If I am downtown, I have to pay to park anyway so I always choose a garage with a Blink station and charge up out of convenience more than necessity (usually). I only do that once a month (or less) anyway, so I don't really care about the cost. I will use the free charger at Whole Foods if I happen to be there and it's available.

I've gone back and forth in my mind about Blink's fee structure. Sure, they could stop charging you once your battery is charged, but unless you disconnect (and usually move your car) shortly thereafter, you're still taking up the space and essentially preventing someone else from using it- and preventing Blink from collecting revenue from them. So, I see their reasoning behind charging a customer as long as their car is connected to the EVSE.

I have not had my LEAF as long as most of the members here but there has only been one time that I really needed to charge while I was out and about. The rest of the time I make it back home within a comfortable margin.

 

[mjblazin]

The only complication I saw was obtaining the access cards and fobs, 6 here in Dallas. It takes about 3 weeks. The actual operations seem straightforward.

 

[Slow1]

I believe the costs are a bit higher than most folks realize. A public station has considerable up-front expenses to just get it in place. Public EVSE equipment has to be considerably more robust than home grade (all the abuse they can take). Maintenance is likely more expensive than most of us realize as well.

Public charging stations are only (financially) self-sustaining if highly utilized. As range of vehicles increase, demand for public charging is likely to shift significantly - usage patterns will change (I predict toward "very fast charging along major long-distance routes and little to no other public charging").

As to being able to "just use a 120v plug" keep in mind that liability concerns quickly come into play. The "cost" of saying no to use is very low (even if they lose all EV business they won't notice it on their bottom line). IF their plug breaks, then the cost of repair could be significant and offset any benefit of letting EV drivers use it. IF a plug wears in such a way that it causes issues (fire, damage to your EVSE) then their liability could be considerable - even just fighting of a frivolous claim can get rather expensive.

 

[desiv]

I have been through a couple of $10+ L2 sessions that I could have done without because I couldn't break away from work and Blink can't seem to re-work its billing structure to stop billing once the battery is charged.

As long as that's known up front, I'm good with that..
Helps free up the spots for those that need them.
As to whether or not it's a good idea for Blink, it depends on the market for the area.
If almost no one ever uses the charger, it's probably not worth it for Blink..
But if it's an area where others might want that charger and can't get it because someone isn't charging but is taking the spot, it's worth it for Blink to charge.

desiv

 

[Slow1]

I have been through a couple of $10+ L2 sessions that I could have done without because I couldn't break away from work and Blink can't seem to re-work its billing structure to stop billing once the battery is charged.

As long as that's known up front, I'm good with that..
Helps free up the spots for those that need them.
As to whether or not it's a good idea for Blink, it depends on the market for the area.
If almost no one ever uses the charger, it's probably not worth it for Blink..
But if it's an area where others might want that charger and can't get it because someone isn't charging but is taking the spot, it's worth it for Blink to charge.

desiv

I have to agree with this - consider the charge "rent" for the parking spot. It is a pain when you get stuck and can't get back to move the car, but hopefully it generally makes the station more available for others. At least it is just a financial hit and you don't get towed away

 

[jlsoaz]

I have been through a couple of $10+ L2 sessions that I could have done without because I couldn't break away from work and Blink can't seem to re-work its billing structure to stop billing once the battery is charged.

As long as that's known up front, I'm good with that..
Helps free up the spots for those that need them.
As to whether or not it's a good idea for Blink, it depends on the market for the area.
If almost no one ever uses the charger, it's probably not worth it for Blink..
But if it's an area where others might want that charger and can't get it because someone isn't charging but is taking the spot, it's worth it for Blink to charge.

desiv

I have to agree with this - consider the charge "rent" for the parking spot. It is a pain when you get stuck and can't get back to move the car, but hopefully it generally makes the station more available for others. At least it is just a financial hit and you don't get towed away

First, thanks for the responses.

On this line of thinking above, I can see the rationale for a policy of continuing to bill after the charge is finished, though I wonder if it could be made a bit less aggressive in its pricing) and it also reminds me that I'd like to buy a sign to put on my car to please unplug it and go ahead and plug your car in, if the charge is completed, or maybe even have some sort of small light built onto the car indicating to others that I am ok with this? The spot in question has 3 spots for 2 charge stations so that sort of policy might work ok.

In the particular case in question, I've never personally seen another BEV in the 3 spots, though from the pics and comments, they do come by once in awhile. There has been a lot of ICE'ing there until recently (see picture with me surrounded by two ICE):

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/9354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did see a Volt there the other day, but it wasn't plugged in, I think they were just deciding to use the parking spot (which is unfortunately a prime spot). Anyway, I always make sure to move my car once I unplug, even if there don't seem to be other BEVs around.

I'm a bit unclear if in those states where Blink has per kWh billing they continue to bill once the charge is complete. This would be helpful to know, if anyone can say. If not, why not? Don't they need to incent folks to move out of the way?

My rethinking stems in part from wondering if a competing way might be more streamlined, less costly, perhaps more encouraging to more drivers. What if a dozen or two spots were required to provide metered or unmetered L1 plug capability? This might cost something on the order of $100 to $500 invested per spot instead of the $2k-$10k per spot for the L2. L1 might be more suitable for some folks who are just using it for daytime/work-day charging and would be a good perk, perhaps costing a bit more for the monthly garage fee. There are various ways to approach it, but I think the key is not any one exact approach, but let's have conversation about how this can be made better.

I know there are substantial differences but for L1 I keep wondering if folks would put up with a complete strike-out on getting ubiquitous charging for their lower-power devices. Whether you have to pay for it or not, would we put up with zero L1 charging for our phones etc. at airports or cafes?

I've spoken to one person who is a known advocate for understanding that mixing in L1 at the workplace, along with L2, can be quite useful and help keep up-front costs down.

Another thing that got me to thinking was that effort to bring any charging to the Tucson airport area. There is a lot of money that has been spent on solar there (more than $1m?) and yet not a dollar for EV charging. One day I drove to the main more expensive indoor garage there and wasted quite a bit of time looking for a conventional plug. No dice. Not one. I networked with a decision maker there and some of the issue was that the funds for the solar were under certain rules and didn't really get at funding for EVs.

Eventually it did become clear that there is one separate private parking lot there that is open-minded, so it was a small but I think useful win:

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/45956" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I can definitely see a point of view about Blink needing to bill, but I think if we step back, there is more conversation to be had as to what our expectations are for parking lots, and whether there are further innovations in billing or other practices or hardware that might improve the experience for some drivers and garages and others.

 

[Slow1]

Basic reality is that public charging is not, in itself, economically viable in most areas and thus simply won't get the investment. In areas where there is significant public money being used to support them, you will see some build-out until the money runs out.

Market forces as they stand now I don't think would support any investment in open public use stations in the vast majority of locations.

On the bright side, you did find a private garage willing to provide power. IF they get enough added business as a result, they may expand that offering and other lots may take notice and start providing it. My guess is that won't happen any time soon.

In places where 'other' reasons exist to provide the services it may be viable - i.e. Workplace charging may be seen as valuable to gain/retain talent, or a company (i.e. Whole Foods) may want to make a 'green statement' as part of their brand image.

I think that this may well be a major reason so many 'free' charging sites exist (cost of energy is very low compared to fixed costs) and those that do charge are doing so as much to keep the spots available as they are to re-coup investments.

I am fully aware that some companies are making a real effort to build a business model, but look close at how they are doing it (and where the money is coming from) and I suspect you will find public money is supporting the decision making process and thus not putting the needs of EV drivers as the primary objective.

As an example - I had a chat with a local (MA) ChargePoint representative. His lack of understanding of real EV use cases (he was not an EV driver) was quickly apparent. The reality that if you NEED to charge at the office, reliable access is of primary concern (more so than having L2 peak speeds) didn't sink in to him until I walked him through it. Failure to have this reliable access (sharing two cables between dozens of EVs does not count as reliable access IMO) effectively makes the station a 'nice to have just in case' but doesn't do much other than marketing to non-EV drivers.

 

[jlsoaz]

Basic reality is that public charging is not, in itself, economically viable in most areas and thus simply won't get the investment. In areas where there is significant public money being used to support them, you will see some build-out until the money runs out.

[...]

As an example - I had a chat with a local (MA) ChargePoint representative. His lack of understanding of real EV use cases (he was not an EV driver) was quickly apparent. The reality that if you NEED to charge at the office, reliable access is of primary concern (more so than having L2 peak speeds) didn't sink in to him until I walked him through it. Failure to have this reliable access (sharing two cables between dozens of EVs does not count as reliable access IMO) effectively makes the station a 'nice to have just in case' but doesn't do much other than marketing to non-EV drivers.

While all or much of this may be the case, my goal is really to rethink how we frame some of this discussion, so progress can be made rather than what we have which in some ways seems to be five years or more of slow progress or stagnation. Sure, some or much of that is due to the less-than-fully satisfying pace of EV rollout, but I think some of it is just due to momentum.

For example, we both appreciate some of the issues for workplace charging. The cap-ex to install L1, whether for workplace or for public parking or what have you, can range from around $0 (just let people use an existing indoor 120 Volt plug) to $500 to $1500+. Why so much money just to let some driver to plug in to 120 Volts?

Anyway, I think if we start getting the ideas out there more clearly we could have something like this: Let's say you're a municipal government leader looking for a way to improve urban air quality and promote EVs, but without spending much money. One way to do that, I think, would be to introduce legislation that city lots provide progressive lessons-learned charging at a moderate number of spots (including low cap-ex Level1, staggered spots, tested conventions for getting along and plugging and unplugging fellow drivers, etc.). It doesn't need to exclude the metering and billing companies like Blink from participating. It just needs to get real so that the stations that are available are not just the well-intended Gen1 effort that is of limited usefulness and were, on balance, higher cap-ex than needed for some purposes.

I don't begrudge a company like Blink making money for their work, but I question if we are making some aspects of public charging more complicated and more expensive, and much less inviting to a critical mass of EV drivers, than they need to be.

 

[Slow1]

That all sounds quite reasonable. I do believe the discussion has to happen at the local level - i.e. whatever agency that is responsible for those city lots is the one to talk to.

In terms of rethinking the discussion framework the question is are we trying to solve the issues with today's EV fleet or meet the needs of the future (5 years +)?

As much as I would like to see L2 and L1 EVSEs available to extend the functionality of my vehicle, I sincerely believe that once range of EVs double (i.e. honest 150 mile range on highway) that the number of these stations required to meet needs will fall tremendously. Thus, if one were to invest in infrastructure to meet this need today, it will make for some happy early adopters but really be a long term waste of resources.

Unused L1/L2 facilities could result in a backlash against future funding of faster options - i.e. folks may be less inclined to support future efforts if they see these as wasted.

I am a supporter of using public funds to help get the networks in place to encourage EV adoption. I do not support using these funds to benefit a very limited number of folks (including myself) for a short period of time.

Perhaps what is really needed is a common/shared vision of what the future should look like, and a strategy to get there. Some aspects of this strategy is up to manufacturers, but perhaps we as the EV enthusiast community can help provide guidance to those making the final decisions.

 

[jlsoaz]

That all sounds quite reasonable. I do believe the discussion has to happen at the local level - i.e. whatever agency that is responsible for those city lots is the one to talk to.

In terms of rethinking the discussion framework the question is are we trying to solve the issues with today's EV fleet or meet the needs of the future (5 years +)?

As much as I would like to see L2 and L1 EVSEs available to extend the functionality of my vehicle, I sincerely believe that once range of EVs double (i.e. honest 150 mile range on highway) that the number of these stations required to meet needs will fall tremendously. Thus, if one were to invest in infrastructure to meet this need today, it will make for some happy early adopters but really be a long term waste of resources.

good point.

Unused L1/L2 facilities could result in a backlash against future funding of faster options - i.e. folks may be less inclined to support future efforts if they see these as wasted.

another good point.

I am a supporter of using public funds to help get the networks in place to encourage EV adoption. I do not support using these funds to benefit a very limited number of folks (including myself) for a short period of time.

Perhaps what is really needed is a common/shared vision of what the future should look like, and a strategy to get there. Some aspects of this strategy is up to manufacturers, but perhaps we as the EV enthusiast community can help provide guidance to those making the final decisions.

You've got me mulling over this question - once a lot of affordable somewhat longer-range (100+ highway miles) BEVs have been deployed, how much of this public charging will we really need? I guess as a related point, I was thinking that we know that part of living with a BEV is getting used to the fact that if you stay within a range, you never need to charge outside the home. So, only a moderate percent of BEV charging needs to take place outside the home, whereas virtually all gasoline vehicle fueling needs to take place outside the home.

[As a side-note, this offers an energy savings over ICEVs in that ICEVs may have to veer off of their route a bit more often, even if only for a few blocks, to get fuel. This may be counted as a trivial energy savings but I think it's a savings nonetheless and is a loss of time and energy in those cases where it is the BEV that has to depart from the route.]

Anyway, will we need (or want) any charging outside of the home and some quick-charging for those days when a person drives more than 150-300+ miles? It's a bit hard to say exactly. I think so. For one thing, PHEVs are (in my view, though not everyone's) part of the future and their batteries are unlikely to get to be that large. Wouldn't it be good for them to have access to charging?

In looking at workplace parking lots (or downtown parking) I'm thinking maybe something to shoot for would be staggered spots with access to some mix of L1 and L2. Perhaps some sort of different way of approaching delivery of fuel so that the user is billed per $kWh (just as they are at home) plus some premium to account for the third parties involved. There is at least one company working on some sort of smart tech way to make it such that smart conventional sockets and smart vehicles can keep track of a vehicle plugging in and bill accordingly.

I wonder if the cars shouldn't come equipped with some convention that we can all agree, whether a formalized sign one can put on the dashboard or perhaps hardware in lights that shows when a vehicle is finished charging and encourages the fellow EV driver to go ahead and unplug it?

The CAP-ex on installing workplace and public lot L1 dedicated charging at a few staggered spots per lot shouldn't be "that" high and should allow for some discussion of actionable items without getting into dollar amounts that might otherwise stop discussion.

I guess as a side-note I'm also wondering when the number of Teslas hits critical mass what conventions they will follow at Tesla Superchargers for getting folks unplugged and moved out of the way. Perhaps will not be that much of an issue.

 

[jlsoaz]

[...]
Unused L1/L2 facilities could result in a backlash against future funding of faster options - i.e. folks may be less inclined to support future efforts if they see these as wasted.
[...]

I think this is an excellent point, and to come back and expand on it. The gen1 blink L2 stations went in a lot of spots around 4-6 years ago I guess. It was inevitable that a lot of mistakes and debatable decisions would be made in this Gen1 deployment and I think some of the criticisms that have inevitably emerged of that deployment have been petty, whereas others seem valid. Even the valid ones I think should keep in mind that there was, and is, a movement afoot to partially unseat the stranglehold that the gasoline/diesel way of doing things over the US Transportation Ecosystem, and capital will need to be spent to do that.

With all that said, one of the mistakes that made me cringe from the start was deployment of L2 stations in prime parking spots. Why not put them a bit out of the way or in a middle ground sort of area? The deployment afforded an opportunity to see EVs and the equipment that charged them, but when taking up a prime parking spot then, at best, the EV was getting a special privilege. When that spot might go largerly unused for year after year, even if the ICV driver dutifully left the spot alone and observed the rules, could they be blamed for simply somewhat resenting the allocation of that spot that had always been available to them on a first-come-first-served basis for years?

The L2 Blink spots in downtown Tucson that I've been using just a little bit the last few weeks are a decent example of this. There are many hundreds of spots in that garage, but the three allocated to EVS are absolutely prime spots and, from what I've seen the last few weeks, have gone somewhat conspicuously large unused over the years (though I don't have access to the Blink data, and until recently hadn't driven by them in a couple of years). I'm the only person I've seen parked there and charging (recently). I've seen a Volt parked there unplugged and a Prius seemed to recently think that it was a plug in and that it should also just take the spot. There were also some other ICVs there every day up to a few weeks ago, but recently that situation has been cleared up a bit. Anyway, to me this sort of conspicuous use of prime real estate to support a largely empty first chapter and sporting a few thousand in expenditure toward equipment is I think not the best idea. I think what I would shoot for is more some out of the way staggered spots sporting some free or nearly free L1 and a few L2s. If billed, I think the billing should, in effect, do a better job of the problem of unplugging, etc. Having more spots would take the pressure off Blink to require billing for the entire time. Another way to do this, in a few situations, is Valet parking services of moving the vehicle once it is charged (which is part of how it might be handled at the Tucson airport parking lot I mentioned).

 

[jlsoaz]

This gives some idea of the sort of low-cost can-do innovative thinking that I think will help reduce cost and increase folks' consideration of purchase of EVs, and use of their EVs.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/19/ev-line-can-turn-any-outlet-in-south-korea-into-a-level-2-charger/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
EV-Line Can Turn Any Outlet In South Korea Into A Level 2 Charger
May 19th, 2015 by Christopher DeMorro

"....EV-Line and the Seoul government are working with private companies to open up outlets in parking garages and apartment buildings that would allow EV owners to plug an EV-Line into these outlets.

"Fitted with a RFID tag attached to the EV owner, the info is sent back to a company called Power Cube, which can determine how much power is being used and where, thus paying South Korea’s main utility for the power. Customers, in turn, pay Power Cube based on their usage. No more jostling over limited charging stations; now every outlet can be a car charger, which is great for Seoul’s mostly apartment-dwelling population....."

 

[atlleaf]

i prefer not to pay more than GAS to charge my car(s)

$2.49 per hr for 3.3kWh charge for 10-12miles in a leaf or volt. serious? (when gas is $1.99-$2.99 gal)

 

[jlsoaz]

i prefer not to pay more than GAS to charge my car(s)

$2.49 per hr for 3.3kWh charge for 10-12miles in a leaf or volt. serious? (when gas is $1.99-$2.99 gal)

Basically, I agree, though there are times I think it's ok to ignore the usual equations and just be on my way. An example of where I agree would be this:

The last few weeks I have been using a Blink L2 station at the usual $0.04 per minute. I have to leave work to go unplug the car and this is an additional non-quantified cost. Usually I am late and the charge for a few kWh (I just need 2 or 3 bars usually, to get home) ends up being something like $5 to $11.

It's been kind of an experiment and one that I won't do much more of, but is in my mind an illustration of something where I think there should be a re-think of how this is being approached.

I don't see much use of those stations. Have not run into any other EVs using them, in several weeks.

 

[kikngas]

...one of the mistakes that made me cringe from the start was deployment of L2 stations in prime parking spots.

I think part of this is that they want you to be able to find the spot, another issue is where there is already existing power infrastructure, and another way to look at it is that 10 years from now, when 30-60% of the spots have charging in that lot, these few spaces won't be so conspicuous. Some parking ramps seem to place them right near the booth with the attendant.

...but, I agree, I actually wish they'd NOT take the prime spots. This can cast a negative tone. I suppose though another way of looking at it is that there shouldn't be any reason a handicapped person can't both access the charging and the parking ramp exit or store entrance.

If some degree of L1 were just generally available in half of the parking locations, this would really make EV easy for daily needs. It would mean most work parking lots have power, and most shopping locations do as well (not all of the spaces, just something in each lot). If you place blocks of 8 outlets periodically, you minimize the use and wear on each (may also be easier to plow snow around it). You could easily follow the ABC (always-be-charging). It would also mean that travelers could top off (all be it very slowly) without spanning huge gaps on the maps and fear of ending up short if they run the heater or defrost. Every travel stop would have L1 available.

I think you need to look at two primary use cases: The daily commuter, that is more concerned about cost and convenience, and the traveler that is more concerned about charge speed, and availability. If I'm commuting, ideally I plug-in and do not return until I need the car again (no inconvenience of moving once charged, or being in the way of others that need to charge). If I'm traveling I'd be willing to pay more than gas prices for a QC located along my route to help build out the infrastructure.

 

[smkettner]

I don't mind paying a premium at a destination that stretches my range.

But for local stores it needs to be free if you want me to linger around shopping a little extra.