SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[walterbays]

Nissan and VW ask, more or less, "Can't we all just get along?"

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html

 

[simpleleaf]

eVgo has at least six QC stations in Dallas/Fort Worth and about eleven in Houston. They are all privately owned by eVgo so they must think there is a market since many more are scheduled for installation. They are not in Austin where you think you may be in California but are in Texas. They are in DFW and Houston where there is no doubt you are in Texas. I am sure there are not near as many LEAFs in Texas as in California so it should work in California too. Forty dollars a month for as much as I want to charge using the Freedom stations which have one QC and one Level 2.

 

[hill]

I appreciate what GM accomplished in building the Volt. With their history of killing electric trains last century
<snip> 1936 to 1950 <snip>
Last century GM conspired with standard oil and others to lead the effort to kill municipal electric train systems in the us so they could sell cars and buses.

So my grandfather was a die-hard Ford fan (seriously) and now I know potentially why!!! :idea: Bring up something from early-mid last century?! Wait I think the Volt is a nod to the diesel electric train as the current "grandsons" at GM felt guilty :lol: You hardcore haters really make me laugh some days. I'm going to use this as a story to tell my kids. Too funny.

Yea . . . c'mon . . . forget the past
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it",
George Santayana
Good ol' Georgie . . . . he must have been a hater ... if all it takes is learning from history then

Someone suggested I was dropped on my head. Obviously I was dropped on my head because I:

Anyone with a pencil and some free space on the back on an envelope and a lick of sense can figure out QCs won't work primarily because there aren't enough not enough Leafs on the road and there won't be many drivers willing to pay a lot for the privilege of using a slow, inconvenient, and unreliable QC.

However, if you believe that QCs are the key to getting people to buy EVs, and you want people to buy EVs, then emotionally you don't want to face the facts and you go looking for a scapegoat. The SAE plug is a convenient if irrelevant scapegoat. It's human nature. Just accept that some people don't want to face reality and they'll find some reason why a "bad person" has ruined their dreams, and they'll shoot any messenger who points out why that's not the case.

" ... don't want to face the facts ..." um - you left out what facts you're thinking of. Are the things you think are facts, really facts? ... or just suppositions. Can't tell ... ie; You're speak without referencing what your subject is. It can't be determined what you find to be a fact, if you don't say what the fact is. As to the remainder of the post - (and I'm just trying to follow your logic) - if you're in the camp that loves frankenplug's - "don't worry about the non-existent cars ... just worry about our proposed Chademo embargo" business model .... then you must emotionally see the pro Chademo users as "bad persons" ... as you say ... because Chademo users are ruining your dreams / SAE "dreams". And GM's "dreams" are the very thing at issue. I'd raise GM's "motive" as an issue ... but then the "hater" label would be thrown at me. Apparently we can't learn from GM's (or any other) history ... as that makes one a hater.
Then there are those in the "2-faced" camp ... claiming to hate both frankenplug and Chademo ... yet they're here, damning Chademo ... instead of getting out lobbying against Frankenplug. Hey ... no better time to kill something like an appliance that no one uses, while it's still prenatal, right? ... so ... why isn't the anti-Frankenplug camp taking off - to go some where else, to go crusade against the easy frankenplug kill ... rather then fighting against our working QC?
.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan and VW ask, more or less, "Can't we all just get along?"

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/06/08/2121867/automakers-aim-to-set-global-standard.html

So, GM/BMW aren't just targeting California. Smart move on their part, but it doesn't look like they'll be successful in bringing Frankenplug to China. Neither will ChadeMo, however.

"European and U.S. firms already have pressed senior officials of the Chinese government not to develop its own system but to adopt a global system (Frankenplug), according to Krebs."

 

[ztanos]

I appreciate what GM accomplished in building the Volt. With their history of killing electric trains last century
<snip> 1936 to 1950 <snip>
Last century GM conspired with standard oil and others to lead the effort to kill municipal electric train systems in the us so they could sell cars and buses.

So my grandfather was a die-hard Ford fan (seriously) and now I know potentially why!!! :idea: Bring up something from early-mid last century?! Wait I think the Volt is a nod to the diesel electric train as the current "grandsons" at GM felt guilty :lol: You hardcore haters really make me laugh some days. I'm going to use this as a story to tell my kids. Too funny.

Yea . . . c'mon . . . forget the past
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it",
George Santayana
Good ol' Georgie . . . . he must have been a hater ... if all it takes is learning from history then

Someone suggested I was dropped on my head. Obviously I was dropped on my head because I:

Anyone with a pencil and some free space on the back on an envelope and a lick of sense can figure out QCs won't work primarily because there aren't enough not enough Leafs on the road and there won't be many drivers willing to pay a lot for the privilege of using a slow, inconvenient, and unreliable QC.

However, if you believe that QCs are the key to getting people to buy EVs, and you want people to buy EVs, then emotionally you don't want to face the facts and you go looking for a scapegoat. The SAE plug is a convenient if irrelevant scapegoat. It's human nature. Just accept that some people don't want to face reality and they'll find some reason why a "bad person" has ruined their dreams, and they'll shoot any messenger who points out why that's not the case.

" ... don't want to face the facts ..." um - you left out what facts you're thinking of. Are the things you think are facts, really facts? ... or just suppositions. Can't tell ... ie; You're speak without referencing what your subject is. It can't be determined what you find to be a fact, if you don't say what the fact is. As to the remainder of the post - (and I'm just trying to follow your logic) - if you're in the camp that loves frankenplug's - "don't worry about the non-existent cars ... just worry about our proposed Chademo embargo" business model .... then you must emotionally see the pro Chademo users as "bad persons" ... as you say ... because Chademo users are ruining your dreams / SAE "dreams". And GM's "dreams" are the very thing at issue. I'd raise GM's "motive" as an issue ... but then the "hater" label would be thrown at me. Apparently we can't learn from GM's (or any other) history ... as that makes one a hater.
Then there are those in the "2-faced" camp ... claiming to hate both frankenplug and Chademo ... yet they're here, damning Chademo ... instead of getting out lobbying against Frankenplug. Hey ... no better time to kill something like an appliance that no one uses, while it's still prenatal, right? ... so ... why isn't the anti-Frankenplug camp taking off - to go some where else, to go crusade against the easy frankenplug kill ... rather then fighting against our working QC?
.

He was referencing the earlier post by Dan... about two posts above the one that you referenced that he referenced.

Frankenplug doesn't need our help to die, that may be why there isn't any anti-Frankenplug camps. They have a solid business model for being killed off, have one really expensive car supported and one car that will only be available in a tiny part of the market, that may or may not have said plug.

 

[ztanos]

I agree with Dan that the current level of technology makes a charging infrastructure monetarily pointless. But then you look back at the gas infrastructure of the early days. Cars couldn't go more than 100 miles/ tank and even the ones that could had a hard time refueling due to no stations. Highway systems helped make travel time shorter and gas stations helped "range anxiety." Dan is, also, correct that bigger batteries with QCs are the way to go. Once cars can travel at 300+ RWD and can be charged in even 30 mins or less, people will become interested. But the bigger car companies won't bother helping the tech when there isn't an infrastructure. They won't see the point, just go along at the status-quo because it's cheaper. Nissan does seem to be making the effort, whereas I believe that Ford and Chevy are kind of just toeing the waters.

 

[bryan38401]

there are many business models that will work for instance you take 10 local businesses that have 5 vehicles and drive an average of 50 to 200 miles a day they ALL decide they dont want to continue to spend 2000.00 a week in gas. Now we all dont agree on what brand some are looking at fords some nissan and some are looking at smith and so on and so on, but at least we have a standard in J1772 so this is what we started installing we can all us it.Since nissan is the clear leader in sales and future offerings 60% of us have decided we will use nissan products.(2 of those who were waiting on ford have leafs now all it took was a drive in my leaf).the key to all of this is WAITING for cars,vans,trucks,chargers,standards, we have waited to long already. We have also decided to install L3 at select locations for those of use who need some EXTENDED range not cross country.The primary users will be us and of course will be open to the general public a fee of 2.50 per 10 min for all users and I asure you it is cheaper for one of my work vans to pull in and charge for 30 min than to charge YOU for 30 min DRIVE time in a ICE.Now there must be something the BIG boys are not telling you because if you want to buy L3 from blink,av,350green,columb who ever, they want to know the LOCATION before they will quote you,this is not for your benifit but theres. there sales man will contacting that location quick and they will quote it!!! lucky for me the first 3 they tried where part of my group so we had to back off and be carefull of who we let know what we were doing,(we must be on to something if the big boys have to use these tactics) and as you can see the nissan charger is about 15,000.00 but av is using same tactic.This is being done with private money we do not want gov assitance or they brand of help it just slows us down. We will be going ahead with our planswhat we will save as a group in fuel and maintance will cover ever thing.Should sae ever come along we will cross that bridge but we as a whole think nissan and CHAdeMO are to far ahead of the rest,and these are very smart and able business leaders in our town.I will note some have chose the volt but they are still on board and use the L2s as much as the leafs as they are installed and useable.

 

[scottf200]

1) Did you guys check out Tom M's post with pictures where BMW has been doing early testing of the SAE Combo on the ActiveE? Proves it's real and far enough long to be testable.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) The Slow Process of EV Charging Standardization
By John Gartner · June 12, 2012
http://www.plugincars.com/slow-process-ev-charging-standardization-122126.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When it began developing a standard connector in 2007, which was long before any of this generation of PEVs had hit the market, the SAE decided it wanted a connector with few pins and that was as small as possible so it would be consumer friendly. When the SAE first began its standards work, the CHAdeMO specification was presented and considered for adoption, but the group ultimately preferred a single connector and chose to develop its own standard.

SAE began relying on power line carrier communications (PLC) when it began to work on an AC charging connector, and the group continued that philosophy with its DC charger development. PLC piggybacks digital communications information over the power line for communications with equipment off the vehicle. The new combo AC and DC connector will take the CAN messages and change them into PLC messages that are governed by the charger’s control pilot equipment.

In addition to these technical issues, the two groups had clearly differing philosophies on the urgency of providing a DC connector standard. Nissan, Mitsubishi, and other CHAdeMO backers wanted PEVs to launch with a fast charging DC option. At the time, SAE’s work was likely years away from completion. Since a CHAdeMO specification was available, they began shipping CHAdeMO-compatible vehicles in 2010 and were comfortable with a two-port solution.

Other automotive OEMs (largely in Germany and the United States) were not in as much rush to deliver vehicles or a DC charging standard.

According to the SAE’s Kissel “the priority was always AC,” and that decision has led to the broad adoption of the J1772 connector.

 

[Stoaty]

Other automotive OEMs (largely in Germany and the United States) were not in as much rush to deliver vehicles or a DC charging standard.

Agreed... and still the case today. That is why a lot of us are thrilled that Nissan stepped up to the plate.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Honestly, I'll have no problem with whatever standard is adopted as long as it happens quickly and doesn't slow the install of DC QC's. If the SAE's version is truly better and there is momentum behind it, bring it on now, the sooner the better, otherwise, GTFOOTW SAE!!!

 

[Pipcecil]

does anyone know if BMW's recent readjustment of their EV market (I read that they had canceled a few of their EV models and reduced their projected output of another) will affect the SAE rollout? Everyone was really hinging on BMW to come out with a larger production vehicle (i.e. not just a california compliance vehicle) that used the SAE combo plug. But, if the reduced model was this one, what situation does this put the SAE plug?

Or was this other models and I got my wires crossed?

 

[scottf200]

1) Did you guys check out Tom M's post with pictures where BMW has been doing early testing of the SAE Combo on the ActiveE? Proves it's real and far enough along to be testable.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

does anyone know if BMW's recent readjustment of their EV market (I read that they had canceled a few of their EV models and reduced their projected output of another) will affect the SAE rollout? Everyone was really hinging on BMW to come out with a larger production vehicle (i.e. not just a california compliance vehicle) that used the SAE combo plug. But, if the reduced model was this one, what situation does this put the SAE plug? Or was this other models and I got my wires crossed?

See Tom M's remarks here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200921#p200921" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[hill]

1) Did you guys check out Tom M's post with pictures where BMW has been doing early testing of the SAE Combo on the ActiveE? Proves it's real and far enough along to be testable.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

does anyone know if BMW's recent readjustment of their EV market (I read that they had canceled a few of their EV models and reduced their projected output of another) will affect the SAE rollout? Everyone was really hinging on BMW to come out with a larger production vehicle (i.e. not just a california compliance vehicle) that used the SAE combo plug. But, if the reduced model was this one, what situation does this put the SAE plug? Or was this other models and I got my wires crossed?

See Tom M's remarks here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200921#p200921" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure Tom believes the frankenplug will be real. Then again, he also believes the bmw will be self driving. I've lost track of how many years the industry has made such claims as self driving ... right up there with cheep production hydrogen cars ... rocket jet packs ... cold fusion. Again, I say, 'good-luck' with that.


.

 

[scottf200]

1) Did you guys check out Tom M's post with pictures where BMW has been doing early testing of the SAE Combo on the ActiveE? Proves it's real and far enough along to be testable.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=205597#p205597" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See Tom M's remarks here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=200921#p200921" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm sure Tom believes the frankenplug will be real. Then again, he also believes the bmw will be self driving. I've lost track of how many years the industry has made such claims as self driving ... right up there with cheep production hydrogen cars ... rocket jet packs ... cold fusion. Again, I say, 'good-luck' with that. .

So the SAE Combo is currently being tested in the ActiveE before they get to the i. Clearly the plug and spec are "real" if it is being tested. Hard to take you seriously in light of that.

 

[TonyWilliams]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/01/vwelec-20130121.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Although the Eaton charger at ERL is equipped with the new SAE J1772 Combined Charging System (CCS) for AC or DC charging (earlier post), and Volkswagen supports the new standard, both Eaton and VW said that they will support CHAdeMO if that standard prevails, particularly in the Japanese market. Eaton’s John Wirtz confirmed “it would not be difficult” to equip their DC charger with charge connectors for either standard, or with charging cables for both standards, if desired."

"Volkswagen’s Rudolf Krebs, who heads VW’s electric powertrain division, further explained that VW sees plug-in charging as evolving toward four levels:"

single-phase AC;
fast three-phase AC (in Europe);
DC charging of up to 20kW; and
public DC charging of up to 86 kW

***************

“DC charging” refers to a charging protocol in which a charging station supplies direct current to a plug-in vehicle’s battery pack. This type of charging, which can be used to “quick charge” some compatible battery packs to 80% state-of-charge (SOC) in as little as ten to twenty minutes, contrasts with the much more common AC charging protocols, in which alternating charging current is supplied to the vehicle and is rectified to direct current by the vehicle’s on-board charger component, which then charges the battery pack."

"Efforts to find consensus on a single charging standard have so far been elusive, particularly with respect to DC charging. Although the CHAdeMO DC charging standard prevails in Japan, with almost 1400 such chargers installed in that country, it is not integrated with AC charging. A CHAdeMO-complaint vehicle therefore requires a large charging door (e.g., Nissan LEAF) or two separate charging doors (e.g., Mitsubishi i-MiEV)."[Or GM Volt; one port for gasoline and one for electricity]

"Volkswagen executives indicated that they had met with CHAdeMO representatives in the past to discuss a single charging standard, but were unable to come to an agreement; one executive reminisced “that was a very difficult discussion” which “quickly became political”. Although many manufacturers of plug-in vehicles, including Volkswagen, support the SAE J1772 AC-DC “combo connector” standard in the US market, as well as the somewhat similar VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 AC-DC standard in Europe, one VW executive remarked “we don’t want to discriminate” on charging standards, explaining “...the investors and the users will decide”."

 

[edatoakrun]

Wow!

Only ~ a year after the last post, it almost happened......

Yesterday I tried to charge my Spark (with quick charge port) on a efacec (how does one pronounce that!) CCS combo charger and the process totally failed. Never got past the startup phase. So is the problem in the car or the charger? Has ANYONE been successful quick charging a Spark?
-Corwin

The charger is at the VW research facility in Belmont, CA. I'm not sure what goes on there, but they had one of the first CHAdeMO chargers (Blink) in the Bay Area. That Blink charger was removed and the efacec (pronounced 'eff-a-sek' as I found out when I called them) is in its place. I actually have two Sparks, both with combo sockets and neither car will charge on it. The efacec charger has both CCS combo and CHAdeMO cables on it and I have used it with my Leaf, so I know the charger is working at least on that standard.

If I had to place bets, I'd guess it is a car problem. I know this is all bleeding edge stuff, so I expect some hurdles. I did wait to pick up a Spark until the QC port was available since I can't imagine having an electric car without. I've owned my Leaf for three years and use quick charging a lot.
-Corwin

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3593&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/i]So close...

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

After watching the issues with CHAdeMO in our area persist and after comparing the remarkably ease of use and extraordinary speed of the Tesla "combo plug", the SAE should just scrap the combo plug and adopt the Tesla Super Charging Plug as the national standard. It's pretty obvious that at the rate quick chargers are getting deployed, the third party free market approach is going to lag by decades over Tesla's model of baking in the cost of the network in each car they sell. It's brilliant, and as far as I can tell, it's the only approach that is really working. Tesla has it figured out the best, they've made a better product and have a better financial model, everyone should suck it up and get behind it, IMHO. I'd be happy to pay a few extra grand for just about any of the EV's if part of the purchase price gave access to and funded a growing nationwide fast charging network.

Tesla is putting these in so fast it's making my head spin, click and scroll down if you haven't already! Coast to coast driving is suddenly possible! Game over, Tesla wins!

http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

 

[reeler]

Tesla is putting these in so fast it's making my head spin, click and scroll down if you haven't already! Coast to coast driving is suddenly possible! Game over, Tesla wins!

Only works coast-to-coast with 200 mile range of the Tesla. Will not work for the ~100 mile range of all the competition's EVs.

That said, I totally agree quick charging is a total fail except for what Tesla is doing. I tried CHAdeMO once at a Nissan dealership. The CHAdeMO handle looks steampunk it is so difficult to use, although they have a newer version that is easier. They don't have a CHAdeMO version certified to work at altitude, but Tesla has chargers next to my cabin in Silverthorne at 9000 ft.

CHAdeMO and Frankenplug are a total fail when compared with Tesla.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They don't have a CHAdeMO version certified to work at altitude, but Tesla has chargers next to my cabin in Silverthorne at 9000 ft.

You might be confusing the restrictions on one brand / model of CHAdeMO (the Nissan / Sumitomo one) with all the dozens of others?

There's not an altitude limit on CHAdeMO.

 

[cwerdna]

I tried CHAdeMO once at a Nissan dealership. The CHAdeMO handle looks steampunk it is so difficult to use, although they have a newer version that is easier.

I've used the unfriendly and unintuitive Yazaki (?) CHAdeMO handle exactly once. It definitely was unwieldy and unintuitive, and there was someone around me who had used it before.

Of course, after I used it, I found out about this how to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=317VrBDkBjg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. At least now I know... hope I can try again sometime.