SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[scottf200]

Various tech details are trying to be gathered in this recent thread. The thread author hoped it would just remain technical:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Several very interesting presentations. Quite a view details on the SAE specs and related standards. Many aspects to this beyond the plugs basic purpose of charging. See some of the presentations.

Back on the relevant discussion,

Has specific specs on the SAE Combo come out for comparison to CHAdeMO (for volts, amps, and charging speeds; theoretical vs. realistic)? Also, just for comparison sake, does anyone know the specs for Tesla's fast charge system (its AC right? or is a DC charger?) and the European one (Meneskes...I know I spelled it wrong).

For all your engineering types to help us non engineering folks, a nice table/chart would be cool to compare the numbers. I would love to see how the Tesla spec compares to CHAdeMO and the like. Disregarding alliances/support/ergonomics, I think the internal spec numbers will be the most important play. Ergonics, design and support can come later if a superior spec'd charger is made (although economics doesn't always work like that).

IMHO and I haven't read the complete thread, but having just spent the last year working on L3 chargers and with Chademo I support the efforts of SAE to bring a more open and comprehensive charging standard to the US and possibly the world. A similar move to this is moving ahead in Europe. Chademo was an attempt by the Japanese car companies to develop proprietary chargers so that they could generate high margin products to support their vehicles. The fiasco created by Chademo by slowly releasing 0.9 of Chademo to the developer community followed by a vehicle the Leaf which used 1.0 version of Chademo and not releasing this to developers greatly slowed the progress on this front and kept lower price L3 chargers from the market. Just try buying the L3 chargers from Nissan, they announce product but don't deliver so that their high priced brethren can reap the rewards of overpriced chargers.

SAE has played no such games and allowed developers and car companies to co-develop what is a far superior specification for fast charging.

Goodbye Chademo like Betamax your time has come and gone. We won't miss you, but your selfish ways have determined your fate!

 

[Spies]

Goodbye Chademo like Betamax your time has come and gone. We won't miss you, but your selfish ways have determined your fate!

Is it just me or is this simply more flame bait?

 

[scottf200]

Goodbye Chademo like Betamax your time has come and gone. We won't miss you, but your selfish ways have determined your fate!

Is it just me or is this simply more flame bait?

Seems like that should be ignored and just focus on some potential insight from someone closer to the technical / developer details.

<snip> having just spent the last year working on L3 chargers and with Chademo I support the efforts of SAE to bring a more open and comprehensive charging standard to the US and possibly the world. A similar move to this is moving ahead in Europe.
<snip>
The fiasco created by Chademo by slowly releasing 0.9 of Chademo to the developer community followed by a vehicle the Leaf which used 1.0 version of Chademo and not releasing this to developers greatly slowed the progress on this front and kept lower price L3 chargers from the market. Just try buying the L3 chargers from Nissan, they announce product but don't deliver so that their high priced brethren can reap the rewards of overpriced chargers.

SAE has played no such games and allowed developers and car companies to co-develop what is a far superior specification for fast charging.

 

[TEG]

...Also, just for comparison sake, does anyone know the specs for Tesla's fast charge system (its AC right? or is a DC charger?)...

90kW DC

http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/11/tesla-launch-rapid-charging-station-between-san-francisco-la/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TonyWilliams]

Several very interesting presentations. Quite a view details on the SAE specs and related standards. superior specification for fast charging.

You do realize that the ChadeMo association has already had many of the same deliberations? Also, ChadeMo just had their annual meeting devoted to nothing but this charger protocol. I know one person who was there, so I'll try and get his insight from that conference.

SAE is late to this game; in my opinion, too late.

 

[evnow]

Regarding moderating this thread - the loud & clear direction we heard from the community sometime back is that we prefer light moderation.

I've not received any complaints - so no action has been taken. If there are any complaints about particular posts, let us know.

 

[jackal]

In my past of being a moderator for a different website, I would have closed this thread, deleted every post you made in it, edit out all quotes from other posts, and put a 30 hold on your account and IP address. Your flame bait is not unique to Internet forums, but we're lucky to not have much of that here. You are the exception.

+1

Moderator: Please do something about trolls like @dan. Freedom of speech and graffiti are 2 very different things.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

+2

consider this a formal complaint not about one thread that "Danandnan" has posted, but a general complaint against his overall participation on the board. suspension/blocking of "his" IP is, IMHO, warranted simply from a functionality perspective, he appears totally uncoachable, intransigent and uninterested in contributing to the forum and in such a way as to appear generally suspect. These boards don't work well as a democracy free speech zone especially due to anonymity, corporate moles, trolls and last and not least the incredible consumption of resources they can cause. Lite moderation works well here, except for such an exceptional situation.

In my past of being a moderator for a different website, I would have closed this thread, deleted every post you made in it, edit out all quotes from other posts, and put a 30 hold on your account and IP address. Your flame bait is not unique to Internet forums, but we're lucky to not have much of that here. You are the exception.

+1

Moderator: Please do something about trolls like @dan. Freedom of speech and graffiti are 2 very different things.

 

[padamson1]

<snip> having just spent the last year working on L3 chargers and with Chademo I support the efforts of SAE to bring a more open and comprehensive charging standard to the US and possibly the world. A similar move to this is moving ahead in Europe.
<snip>
The fiasco created by Chademo by slowly releasing 0.9 of Chademo to the developer community followed by a vehicle the Leaf which used 1.0 version of Chademo and not releasing this to developers greatly slowed the progress on this front and kept lower price L3 chargers from the market. Just try buying the L3 chargers from Nissan, they announce product but don't deliver so that their high priced brethren can reap the rewards of overpriced chargers.

SAE has played no such games and allowed developers and car companies to co-develop what is a far superior specification for fast charging.

If this is true then I would have to say that CHAdeMO is is taking advantage of their headstart on the industry to get a near term profit but a huge loss in the long term.

Putting a chokehold on the technology will not only hurt the advancement of EVs, but may keep their technology from winning in the US.

 

[DaveEV]

Moderator: Please do something about trolls like @dan. Freedom of speech and graffiti are 2 very different things.

As a moderator - while DANandNAN has been vocal and somewhat abrasive - he certainly has been not been the only one guilty of that. The best solution will be to take the SAE combo discussion technical discussion to the appropriate thread. SAE J1772 "Combo Connector"

As evnow said - moderation here is purposefully light and we try to only step in when name-calling erupts. Disagreeing with someone is not a legitimate complaint.

 

[ztanos]

While I'm one of the first one's on here to argue with Dan. He is only expressing his beliefs. He may have an opposing knowledge base from the rest of us, but that doesn't mean he isn't passionate about EVs. He has had a few good things to say about them, he is just a little too brash sometimes about trying to get people to understand his opinion. Even when that means that it is expressed over and over and over.

 

[ztanos]

Moderator: Please do something about trolls like @dan. Freedom of speech and graffiti are 2 very different things.

As a moderator - while DANandNAN has been vocal and somewhat abrasive - he certainly has been not been the only one guilty of that. The best solution will be to take the SAE combo discussion technical discussion to the appropriate thread. SAE J1772 "Combo Connector"

As evnow said - moderation here is purposefully light and we try to only step in when name-calling erupts. Disagreeing with someone is not a legitimate complaint.

You guys did your jobs, told us to stop and Dan lightened up after that. I, for one, followed suit as well. Sometimes passion gets in the way of common sense. I don't think that Dan needs to be blocked.

 

[smkettner]

Seems to me this thread is about SAE-GM cronyism attempting to control the QC market to gain competitive advantage by suppressing CHAdeMO.

D&N seems to be against any government funded QC of either brand.

I personally want to see the CHAdeMO QC installed even though I have no L3 port. EVs should be given every chance to succeed. Any QC subsidy goes hand in hand with the $7,500 federal tax credit to make this a viable alternative to importing more oil.

If SAE-GM want to compete then start rolling the QC cars off the assembly line. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.
JMHO.

 

[TonyWilliams]

If SAE-GM want to compete then start rolling the QC cars off the assembly line. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.
JMHO.

Or go to the government to stop the competition, get a bail out, get a loan, get partial ownership, and do whateveryouwant.

 

[scottf200]

Seems to me this thread is about SAE-GM cronyism attempting to control the QC market to gain competitive advantage by suppressing CHAdeMO.

Why don't you two contribute to the technical discussion ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) or to the remarks from the developer (see below). Your conspiracy theory stuff pointing fingers in anticipation of using a scapegoat in the future is pretty thin. Read some of those SAE presentations in the thread above. They are thorough and cover several aspects beyond the basic car charging.

<snip> having just spent the last year working on L3 chargers and with Chademo I support the efforts of SAE to bring a more open and comprehensive charging standard to the US and possibly the world. A similar move to this is moving ahead in Europe.
<snip>
The fiasco created by Chademo by slowly releasing 0.9 of Chademo to the developer community followed by a vehicle the Leaf which used 1.0 version of Chademo and not releasing this to developers greatly slowed the progress on this front and kept lower price L3 chargers from the market. Just try buying the L3 chargers from Nissan, they announce product but don't deliver so that their high priced brethren can reap the rewards of overpriced chargers.

SAE has played no such games and allowed developers and car companies to co-develop what is a far superior specification for fast charging.

 

[ENIAC]

SAE has played no such games and allowed developers and car companies to co-develop what is a far superior specification for fast charging.

We'll only know once actual SAE QC are built and deployed and vehicles are produced which accept the SAE interface. Until then, it's comparing potential (SAE) with actual (CHAdeMO).

 

[smkettner]

Seems to me this thread is about SAE-GM cronyism attempting to control the QC market to gain competitive advantage by suppressing CHAdeMO.

Why don't you two contribute to the technical discussion ( http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) or to the remarks from the developer (see below). Your conspiracy theory stuff pointing fingers in anticipation of using a scapegoat in the future is pretty thin. Read some of those SAE presentations in the thread above. They are thorough and cover several aspects beyond the basic car charging.

I have nothing against GM producing a vehicle with the SAE combo plug.
My issue is with GM telling CA to not implement CHAdeMO.

Competition is good. Bring on the actual cars. Until then stay out of it because they are not in the game. This has nothing to do with the technical differences or the superiority of the SAE combo plug. If it is better then it will prevail.

GM had their chance to lead some time ago. Lots of places even installed their preferred charging stations. That all got us nowhere. Why should we be following GM again until at least actual cars are produced?

 

[palmermd]

I have nothing against GM producing a vehicle with the SAE combo plug.
My issue is with GM telling CA to not implement CHAdeMO.

Competition is good. Bring on the actual cars. Until then stay out of it because they are not in the game. This has nothing to do with the technical differences or the superiority of the SAE combo plug. If it is better then it will prevail.

GM had their chance to lead some time ago. Lots of places even installed their preferred charging stations. That all got us nowhere. Why should we be following GM again until at least actual cars are produced?

+1 well put.

 

[scottf200]

Competition is good. Bring on the actual cars. Until then stay out of it because they are not in the game. This has nothing to do with the technical differences or the superiority of the SAE combo plug. If it is better then it will prevail.

Thanks for your response. I'm an *EV enthusiast 1st. I only got interested in GM because of the Volt and it has impressed the he11 out of me. I'm not that concerned about GM in this QC discussion per se. We are in an infant (not even toddler) stage of this it seems (3 or 4 or even 5 digits is tiny). I only really am focusing on the long term *EV "war" and not on the short term "battle" if that makes any sense. It sure seems like SAE is more thorough and doing very long term/global "thinking" on this (see presentations http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). We all have similar goals.

 

[palmermd]

Competition is good. Bring on the actual cars. Until then stay out of it because they are not in the game. This has nothing to do with the technical differences or the superiority of the SAE combo plug. If it is better then it will prevail.

Thanks for your response. I'm an *EV enthusiast 1st. I only got interested in GM because of the Volt and it has impressed the he11 out of me. I'm not that concerned about GM in this QC discussion per se. We are in an infant (not even toddler) stage of this it seems (3 or 4 or even 5 digits is tiny). I only really am focusing on the long term *EV "war" and not on the short term "battle" if that makes any sense. It sure seems like SAE is more thorough and doing very long term/global "thinking" on this (see presentations). We all have similar goals.

I hope you are correct and the end result is a better product. My big gripe has been what the title of the thread indicates and that is that they are trying to stop the progress of their competition until they can get the design completed and approved. That is just not right. Let us keep moving forward with what we have and if the SAE comes through on all their goals we can deal with two cords on the charge stations for a while. Heck we have 3 grades of gas and then diesel, and some gas stations are starting to have 5 grades.