San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

[GRA]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

The locations where they're needed are pretty obvious if you just look at a map and combine that with knowledge of where people tend to drive on the weekends, but maybe Nissan needs to have 'obvious' spelled out for them.

 

[planet4ever]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

Continuing south from there I would guess that you might think the next "obvious" location would be Fresno. But don't forget that San Jose is the largest city in northern California, and from there to the San Joaquin Valley the only logical route is 152 rather than 580. For that, Los Baños and Madera are critical. It's about 70 miles from Los Baños to Fresno, which is too far to push a DCQC without slowing waaay down.

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

Livermore is Nissan North America HQ? It's in TN per http://www.nissanusa.com/about/corporate-info/nissan-in-north-america.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/10/AR2005111000988.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/11/business/fi-nissan11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; talk about the move from Gardena, CA (in So Cal) over to TN.

 

[GRA]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

Continuing south from there I would guess that you might think the next "obvious" location would be Fresno. But don't forget that San Jose is the largest city in northern California, and from there to the San Joaquin Valley the only logical route is 152 rather than 580. For that, Los Baños and Madera are critical. It's about 70 miles from Los Baños to Fresno, which is too far to push a DCQC without slowing waaay down.

Ray

Rather than Los Banos, I'd put it at the Santa Nella Interchange (I-5/152). It will be needed eventually for N/S travel, and it's only about 7-8 miles west of L.B. OTOH, it does make Madera (99/145) a bit far, so I think having one around Fairmead (Rd. 20 exit, say) would be better. But my theory is that people going to Yosemite from the South Bay will go up to Merced and take 140 from there, as it's shorter (42 miles from Santa Nella, via 152 & 59) and you avoid an extra 2,000 feet of climbing going into Yosemite Valley. Then we need a charger in Mariposa.

Of course, the main thing this proves is how poorly suited a car with the Leaf's range is for such a trip, even with QCs. Ray, would you choose to drive from Morgan Hill in your Leaf, assuming you had to QC in Gilroy (short charge), Santa Nella, Merced, and Mariposa? Or would you be more likely to say "this is ridiculous", and take a car that can get you there non-stop without a sweat? I don't see this as a practical use of current short-range BEVs - a Tesla S-60 or 85, sure. People might do it once for the adventure, but IMO very few would willingly do it more than that when far more convenient options are available.

I think putting the QCs initially on routes where they extend Leaf etc. range by one or at most two QCs from population centers is more important. So let's put them between the Bay Area and Santa Cruz/Monterey, Sacramento, west Marin, and the wine country. And between Sacramento and Tahoe, and (depending on the number locally) Merced and Yosemite, and Fresno and Yosemite/Sequoia-Kings. PLus Stockton to catch the Highway 4 traffic, and enable N-S Sacramento/Manteca/Merced trips.

 

[GRA]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

Livermore is Nissan North America HQ? It's in TN per http://www.nissanusa.com/about/corporate-info/nissan-in-north-america.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/10/AR2005111000988.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/11/business/fi-nissan11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; talk about the move from Gardena, CA (in So Cal) over to TN.

Google shows it as Nissan North America Inc. Maybe it's just the West Coast area or something.

 

[cwerdna]

For those on 580 into the central valley, Dublin, Livermore (Nissan North America HQ), Tracy, Modesto, Stockton, Merced.

Livermore is Nissan North America HQ? It's in TN per http://www.nissanusa.com/about/corporate-info/nissan-in-north-america.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/10/AR2005111000988.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://articles.latimes.com/2005/nov/11/business/fi-nissan11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; talk about the move from Gardena, CA (in So Cal) over to TN.

Google shows it as Nissan North America Inc. Maybe it's just the West Coast area or something.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nissan-north-america-opens-livermore-calif-training-center-96487609.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-north-america-opens-livermore-calif-training-center?query=livermore" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/26/nissan-opens-first-technical-training-center-geared-to-electric/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think either Livermore (or less likely Sacramento) came up as a possible future meet location when I and others were in conversation w/Tim Gallagher in south SJ. We pointed out that it's not exactly ideal and not where many Leaf drivers are centered around.

 

[planet4ever]

Of course, the main thing this proves is how poorly suited a car with the Leaf's range is for such a trip, even with QCs. Ray, would you choose to drive from Morgan Hill in your Leaf, assuming you had to QC in Gilroy (short charge), Santa Nella, Merced, and Mariposa? Or would you be more likely to say "this is ridiculous", and take a car that can get you there non-stop without a sweat?

I agree. Yosemite is not a practical destination from the Bay Area in a LEAF. But that is not the destination I had in mind. Fresno is a city of over half a million, the 5th largest city in the state. San Jose is a city of about a million, the 3rd largest in the state. It is about 150 miles between them, give or take 20 miles depending on where in those two cities your starting point and destination are. Highway 152 is the only reasonable route between these two major cities

I think putting the QCs initially on routes where they extend Leaf etc. range by one or at most two QCs from population centers is more important.

Exactly.

I must admit to a bias here. My wife and I make frequent trips to Fresno from near San Jose. weylan would like to get to Fresno from Fremont. Randy3 and FalconFour make frequent trips from Fresno to the Bay Area, and both have actually done it in their LEAFs. I'm sure there are others, and we are just the leading edge of what will (hopefully) become a torrent.

Ray

Edit: Drew a blank on FalconFour earlier.

 

[GRA]

Of course, the main thing this proves is how poorly suited a car with the Leaf's range is for such a trip, even with QCs. Ray, would you choose to drive from Morgan Hill in your Leaf, assuming you had to QC in Gilroy (short charge), Santa Nella, Merced, and Mariposa? Or would you be more likely to say "this is ridiculous", and take a car that can get you there non-stop without a sweat?

I agree. Yosemite is not a practical destination from the Bay Area in a LEAF. But that is not the destination I had in mind. Fresno is a city of over half a million, the 5th largest city in the state. San Jose is a city of about a million, the 3rd largest in the state. It is about 150 miles between them, give or take 20 miles depending on where in those two cities your starting point and destination are. Highway 152 is the only reasonable route between these two major cities

I think putting the QCs initially on routes where they extend Leaf etc. range by one or at most two QCs from population centers is more important.

Exactly.

I must admit to a bias here. My wife and I make frequent trips to Fresno from near San Jose. weylan would like to get to Fresno from Fremont. Randy3 and someone else who's user name escapes me at the moment make frequent trips from Fresno to the Bay Area, and both have actually done it in their LEAFs. I'm sure there are others, and we are just the leading edge of what will (hopefully) become a torrent.

Ray

I hear you, I've got my own common trips that I'd want to do, like home-Monterey. But the problem I have with Fresno-Bay Area is that I consider the Leaf's practical range using 80% QCs to be 40-45 miles at best,so the QCs can't be further apart than that:

@ 65 mph, 75 mile range (new battery, ideal conditions) x .6 (80% charge - 20% LBW reserve = .6 of max. range) = 45 miles, and that's with no use of CC or other accessories. Slow it down to 60 mph and you get 82 miles x .6 = 49.2 miles, same conditions. At 55 mph, 89 miles x .6 = 53.4 miles. Throw in some degradation and/or temp/CC use/wind/climbing, and you're down to 40 miles or less.

Unless we can space QCs every 15-20 miles (likely unaffordable any time soon), a 100% charge at the start will often require an early QC stop to charge well under the max range so that you can make the following QC, so you're still going to have at least three and possibly four stops.

Starting with a 100% charge from Morgan Hill you might be able to bypass the Gilroy QC and charge at Santa Nella (51.1 miles) and Fairmead (94.6) before reaching downtown Fresno (Jct. 180/41: 129 miles), so not so bad. Coming back you'd probably need to stop at all three (just a short one at Gilroy), given their spacing. Anyone going to the South Bay or Fremont will need a full stop in Gilroy, and possibly another somewhere in the Bay Area.

Realistically, until we get affordable BEVs that can go at least 1 hour at the freeway speed limit (using an 80% QC with a 20% reserve) under any conditions, trips like Fresno-B.A. will remain inconvenient and inefficient - A RAV4EV with a QC would work okay. If you've got the time and the inclination to do it in a Leaf, great, but it won't be something that most people will be willing to do.

 

[OrientExpress]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

 

[GRA]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

When is Nissan planning to tell us where they'll be, so we can comment before they spend (and possibly waste) a bundle of cash?

 

[OrientExpress]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

When is Nissan planning to tell us where they'll be, so we can comment before they spend (and possibly waste) a bundle of cash?

The sites have all been selected, and are in progress of being installed. It appears that the location information will be announced once they are operational.

My thinking is to sit back, relax, and wait for the end of March.

 

[planet4ever]

@ 65 mph, 75 mile range (new battery, ideal conditions) x .6 (80% charge - 20% LBW reserve = .6 of max. range) = 45 miles, and that's with no use of CC or other accessories. Slow it down to 60 mph and you get 82 miles x .6 = 49.2 miles, same conditions. At 55 mph, 89 miles x .6 = 53.4 miles. Throw in some degradation and/or temp/CC use/wind/climbing, and you're down to 40 miles or less.

Actually, traffic on the 12 mile stretch east of Gilroy flows at 55mph or less, often much less than that. It's heavily traveled, 55 speed limit, quite a few curves, mostly two lane no passing. But on the other hand, that is followed by the 1200 foot climb to Pacheco Pass (1250 foot on the valley side). So I have to admit you are right. Until we get an EV with somewhat more range we'll just continue to take the Prius.

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

not that I am complaining about the focus of Nissan's efforts but is there any other states involved? I was thinking (hoping) that this would be more of a national effort and yes, I do realize that QC in the wrong place is a waste of money but there are plenty of larger spread out metropolitan areas that would greatly enhance the usability of the LEAF

 

[TonyWilliams]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

When is Nissan planning to tell us where they'll be, so we can comment before they spend (and possibly waste) a bundle of cash?

What update? This isn't anything other than what has already specifically been publicly announced.

For whatever reason, Nissan is playing the Tesla secret charger card... except everybody in the know... knew where Tesla was building the Supercharger stations. If you really want to figure out where a particular Nissan charger will go, it's actually quite a bit simpler... most will be at a Nissan dealer.

Call your local dealer and ask them. Simple.

 

[NYLEAF]

A small update on the Nissan DCQCs that are planned for the dealers in California, Oregon and Washington. Things are moving along and the goal is to have them all operational by the end of March.

not that I am complaining about the focus of Nissan's efforts but is there any other states involved? I was thinking (hoping) that this would be more of a national effort and yes, I do realize that QC in the wrong place is a waste of money but there are plenty of larger spread out metropolitan areas that would greatly enhance the usability of the LEAF

+1

I always find myself agreeing with you, Dave.

It's great that Nissan is putting in DCQCs, but they need to focus on putting these things where the private sector (and publicly funded entities) are not already installing/planning on installing them. No one, not even those getting tons of money from the government to install them, have any plans for DCQC in the NYC area. I know we're not CA, but New Yorkers are green, too. Hybrids have done very well here. EVs could, too, if the infrastructure started showing up.

I'll patiently wait until March for more news...

 

[OrientExpress]

Yes, this batch will all be situated at Nissan dealers, and a dealers desire to be in the program is a significant criteria in the placement decision.

Because of that, I think that those of you that were hoping for a "Nut Tree" (look it up) QC experience may not be fully satisfied. Some rural Nissan dealers are not as engaged with the LEAF as others, and don't see the need, or can't justify the installation and operation of the chargers. The dealer principles are they ones that need to be sold, not Nissan. While Nissan is carrying most of the financial responsibility in this project, the local dealers will have skin in the game too. Each and everyone of you that have a pet place where you want a charger and is close to a Nissan Dealer, you need to go to that dealer and tell them you want them to have a QC at their store and why you want them to have it there. It is truly up to all of us to make the business case to those businessmen and women.

But also on the upside is that Nissan will probably have a much enhanced B2B sales organization this year for their charger and other EV products. I think they be finally ready to sell their charger product to the business community in a big way, and also market the LEAF to SLGs (State and Local Governments)and other fleet buyers with a serious effort.

This commitment by Nissan and other players like NRG, SLGs and other providers is going to beef up infrastructure in a significant way this year. I think by this time next year the charging access landscape will be considerably different in the areas and their surrounds where EVs are most popular vs where they are now. For those of you that are truly homesteader EV owners, be patient, your time will come too.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes, this batch will all be situated at Nissan dealers, and a dealers desire to be in the program is a significant criteria in the placement decision.... Some rural Nissan dealers are not as engaged with the LEAF as others, and don't see the need, or can't justify the installation and operation of the chargers.

Which is sad, because if Nissan played a bit more above board on this, they could find folks / entities that might sponsor installs at dealerships in Redding, or Cow Town (like Nut Tree, only in English), or San Luis Obispo, etc.

Even government money out there to support this stuff. Just dumb.

The same cost to Nissan (supply the equipment) and subsidized install / operation at the needed location.

 

[OrientExpress]

It would be great if it was that simple, but it really isn't, you know that. Be happy that this is happening, sure after many false starts, but things are actually happening, and this is just the start.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

one of the things discussed was Nissan's mis steps on the LEAF distribution. they admitted several dealers should not be selling the LEAF simply because the population density does not work for ANY kind of charging. There are L2's at dealers that are literally 100 miles away from any destination so the charger is useless unless you happen to live within range of the dealership and like hanging out there for several hours while recharging.

But they also have to take steps because the expected support from 3rd party vendors has not materialized. As we all know, the largest vendor Blink, cant keep anything running long enough for people to realize it even works.

They also realized that quick charging in a metropolitan area spanning 30-50 miles (iow, nearly every large city in the US) would provide a key cog in the EV transportation game for just driving around the city. Remember, L2's only work if they are at your destination but L3 is ok because one can get a usable charge in 15 minutes. grab something to drink, swing by the bathroom and say hi to your salesman and your 15 minutes is up.



This is shot of screen of QC at Nissan Headquarters. I dont read Japanese but pretty sure the default time setting is 15 minutes.

 

[Herm]

Do we know the financials of this?.. I'm assuming Nissan pays for the charger and install, dealership pays for the demand charges and electricity.