Share info. with local utility? Nissan asks me to...

[planet4ever]

I have to admit that in my case I decided not to report it. My reasoning was that PG&E might worry unnecessarily about me adding to the system peak load even though I knew I was not going to affect it at all. In two years I think I have charged for a total of less than ten hours during the day. My paltry 2.9kW load (12A EVSEupgrade) runs for an average of about two hours per night in the wee hours.

Ray

 

[davewill]

... Give consumers a free market, and they will choose. ... Here's an example, in PG&E land you pay $.50/kWH peak, summer, E-9 (TOU), tiers 3 and above (which is the last half of a typical residence's monthly electric use), but they will only pay you $.029/kWH for excess production (you bought too much solar capacity?). Compare this to SMUD's R-1 rate plan (Sacramento, where the state lawmakers live) of approx $.10/kWH for summer peak (up to 700 kWH/mo). ...

Bwahahahah :lol: :lol: ... If this actually WERE a free market, they would pay you BUPKIS for overproduction...Hell, they probably wouldn't even support net metering at all. It does absolutely nothing for their profits to support rooftop solar. Oh, and just how many different companies do you think can run electric lines to your house, anyway? The only way we have competition now is by the government regulating the local monopoly provider and forcing them to provide you choices.

 

[leafedbehind]

If I install a hot tub, or replace a gas clothes dryer with an electric one, do I need to notify my utility?

 

[JeremyW]

I also work in the electric utility industry like Randy does, but I work in the transmission and generation side of things. We're the ones that adjust generators, regulate frequency, and provide an open market for power producers (independently owned power plants). Our challenges with electric cars are a bit different, so I'd like to point them out and explain why this data is valuble for us.

With TOU rates for electric vehicles, there is a window of time within the 24 hour day that you get the lowest rate. Most set charge timers to have the car follow these rates. But there's a concern for us on the bulk electric system: what happens when midnight rolls around (or whenever the super off peak starts) and all the cars begin charging at nearly the same time? The EV Project shows us what this load curve looks like:

The magnitude of the demand is below the noise floor of what we see in the bulk electric system. But it won't stay that way forever, and power plants do not move instantaneously. We need to start thinking about demand response, staggering of start times, and encouraging the use of end-only timers.

Further, as California moves twards it's 33% renewable portfolio standard, we need to consider using these vehicles as regulation and/or reserve. Wind power can be quite variable in its output, and other generation is held in reserve to back it up. This is typically done with hydro or thermal generation. As we get more and more wind power, more generation is needed to back it up. By having a demand response program that could intiate charging early or back it off temporarily as the wind fluctuates, less power plants would need to adjust their output to keep everything in balance. This improves the efficiency and emissions of our power plants and ultimatly will save the utilities and consumers money.

By knowing both the number of cars in the state and where they are regionally, we can study the effects large amounts of vehicles on the grid and how it will affect our transmission and generation capacity. This data is extremely valuable in planning at all levels and I whole heartily agree with Randy that this data should be shared.

 

[JeremyW]

I have to admit that in my case I decided not to report it. My reasoning was that PG&E might worry unnecessarily about me adding to the system peak load even though I knew I was not going to affect it at all. In two years I think I have charged for a total of less than ten hours during the day. My paltry 2.9kW load (12A EVSEupgrade) runs for an average of about two hours per night in the wee hours.

Ray

While your electric vehicle may not put much of a load on your transformer, what if your neighbors got one? We've already seen those with leafs tend to 'sell' the car really well. What the utility is ultimately looking at is clusters of EVs in neighborhoods. Where there is one, there is likelihood of others popping up nearby.

If I install a hot tub, or replace a gas clothes dryer with an electric one, do I need to notify my utility?

It would be a good idea, yes. It's much less expensive for them to come out and check the transformer then to have to replace it later in a rush because it went kaput.

Keep in mind transformers are very similar to our batteries, in that they roughly follow ambient temperature. Their "cool down" period is at night when load is lighter. If there are a few EV's on the transformer there is no cool down at night. This can shorten the life expectancy of the unit, even if the load is within rating.

 

[planet4ever]

With TOU rates for electric vehicles, there is a window of time within the 24 hour day that you get the lowest rate. Most set charge timers to have the car follow these rates. But there's a concern for us on the bulk electric system: what happens when midnight rolls around (or whenever the super off peak starts) and all the cars begin charging at nearly the same time?

Precisely why it is best to set an end time and not a start time. My load starts some time between 1 and 4 AM and ends some time between 5 and 6 AM. It all depends on how far the battery has discharged, how cold it is, and how long the car's feeble-minded computer thinks it will take to recharge it.

While your electric vehicle may not put much of a load on your transformer, what if your neighbors got one? We've already seen those with leafs tend to 'sell' the car really well. What the utility is ultimately looking at is clusters of EVs in neighborhoods. Where there is one, there is likelihood of others popping up nearby.

Good point, though I can't see it happening in my neighborhood. Most of the cars around here were bought used, and at least five years ago. Only one neighbor has expressed any interest in my car at all, and he just shakes his head when he sees me in it. There is no way he could afford anything with a 5-digit price.

Ray

 

[JeremyW]

Most of the cars around here were bought used, and at least five years ago

Five years is not a long time in the utility industry. Power plants and lines take years to plan, be approved by government entities, and build. If leaf values on the used market continue to drop at the rate that they are, it might not be a stretch to assume your neighbors could afford a used one outright in 2018. In fact, if they know that their commute is short enough, they might be able to pick up a leaf down a few bars for a song.

I bet your neighborhood in five years will be a hodgepodge of electrics, hybrids, smaller old plain ICEs, and rarely used ICE SUVs for the family trip.

 

[brg2290]

Hi all.
I'm the original poster...great to see so many varied thoughts on the subject. In the end, Randy and Jeremy swayed me and I elected to opt in on the local utility sharing.

I currently use the Nissan supplied EVSE with EVSE upgrade (sent it in for improvements the day after I picked up the car), and charge in my garage @ 230V. I use the end timer set for 4:30 a.m. and let it calculate back to determine start time. There is no TOU variations here (although I can see the day when there will be). I don't know if my sharing this information with the utility will ultimately have much or any effect on infrastructure decisions, but I intend to continue driving electric when my car's lease runs it's course in Dec. 2014, and I'm hoping there will be others in my neighborhood / city that will be doing so also.

Gary

 

[DaveEV]

@Randy, you say "stick it to da man", I say NO to "thank you sir, may I have another?". Technology has advanced enough that there's no excuse for utility monopolies. Give consumers a free market, and they will choose.

Hah, if utilities were run as a "free market" you'd be paying quite a bit more for electricity. Well, in reality, you'd probably be running a genset or maybe an off-grid PV system, which is typically what happens when there is no utility. Seriously, the "free market" simply does not work for things like utilities - there's a good reason why they are regulated monopolies.

Here's an example, in PG&E land you pay $.50/kWH peak, summer, E-9 (TOU), tiers 3 and above (which is the last half of a typical residence's monthly electric use), but they will only pay you $.029/kWH for excess production (you bought too much solar capacity?). Compare this to SMUD's R-1 rate plan (Sacramento, where the state lawmakers live) of approx $.10/kWH for summer peak (up to 700 kWH/mo).

That's a whole 'nother can-o-worms. If you really want to make it "fair", you'd be paying utility demand fees (which pay for infrastructure) and be credited/debited based on real-time market electricity rates and your real-time electricity generation/usage.

With TOU rates for electric vehicles, there is a window of time within the 24 hour day that you get the lowest rate. Most set charge timers to have the car follow these rates. But there's a concern for us on the bulk electric system: what happens when midnight rolls around (or whenever the super off peak starts) and all the cars begin charging at nearly the same time?

Yeah, that's quite an ugly spike. But at least it's predictable. It's too bad Nissan didn't put in a random start offset like I believe GM did with the Volt.

But either way, the chart very nicely illustrates why using and end-timer instead of a start-time for charger is better.

1. The car can't seem to accurately predict when it will finish charging, so you end up with a fairly random stop time.
2. Your battery spends less time fully (or 80%) charged which should be better for battery life.

Ideally you'd be able to program in your utility rates, departure time and then have a couple different charging schedules:

1. Cheapest electricity cost: This would center your charging time around the off-peak rates - so if you off peak time is 12am-5am and the car needs to charge for 3 hours, it will charge between 1am-4am.
2. Maximize battery life: This would bring the battery to ideal SOC for storage (if more beneficial than current SOC), then delay the rest of charging until your departure time.
3. Blended: This might bring the battery up out of any extremely low SOC (if extremely low SOC is really bad for storage, jury's still out on that one), do the bulk of charging during off-peak time, then top-off just prior to departure time.

That may be too many choices, but it'd be interesting to see how those settings would perform.

 

[Phatcat73]

I don't fully understand Randy's & Jeremy's viewpoints. In a nutshell the utilities are using the knowledge of knowing who has an EV to better plan long term infrastructure enhancements based on expected demand.

They can get the same information from their metering systems. If they see a continuous monthly spike in usage (whether EV, hot tub, electric appliances), it's time for the utility to upgrade electrical components.

My home was built back in the 70s with all electrical appliances (stove, oven, dryer). Each of these are on their own 30 amp breaker. We have plans to remodel and upgrade to gas. Shall I notify my utility company to expect lower demand?

My fear is they're going to "tax" EV owners

My vote is to opt out.

 

[davewill]

I don't fully understand Randy's & Jeremy's viewpoints. In a nutshell the utilities are using the knowledge of knowing who has an EV to better plan long term infrastructure enhancements based on expected demand.

They can get the same information from their metering systems. If they see a continuous monthly spike in usage (whether EV, hot tub, electric appliances), it's time for the utility to upgrade electrical components. ...

Not really. They know you're drawing more for something, but it could be your new pool running the pump, they just don't know.

My fear is they're going to "tax" EV owners

And if they do they'll get the info from the DMV, not from some informal info gathered from Nissan.

It's too bad Nissan didn't put in a random start offset like I believe GM did with the Volt.

It's hardly too late. The number of LEAFs out there now are a drop in the bucket. If this is really a needed feature, they'll just add it to a future model.

 

[DaveEV]

They can get the same information from their metering systems. If they see a continuous monthly spike in usage (whether EV, hot tub, electric appliances), it's time for the utility to upgrade electrical components.

In theory with smart meters they should be able to get near real-time data on demand. In reality, they have deployed smart meters but still appear to be do little more than look at the data in bulk.

My fear is they're going to "tax" EV owners.

The PUC wouldn't let that happen. The utilities in general should be welcoming EVs as it presents a significant revenue stream for them.

Compare it to net-metering which only guarantees less revenue for the utility. EVs with very predictable charging behavior (aside from a few early issues like the 12am spike in demand) present a nice load for the utility to provide. My EV utility bill is significantly higher than my house electricity/gas bill thanks to net-metering and thanks to the predictability of EV charging a TOU plan works out very well and doesn't give me much incentive to put the EV on my house meter and increase the size of my PV system (although I am still tempted to do so). I am much more concerned about a self-generation tax than an EV tax, personally.

 

[TimLee]

I don't think I got an email from Nissan asking permission to share info with utility.
But I was in the EVProject and that included sharing the info.

Sharing the info with the utility is the right thing to do so the utility can understand the impact and plan for electric vehicles.