Tesla Supercharger Network

[edatoakrun]

The very limited utility of public L2 charging has been a major factor in the failure of BEVs to gain market acceptance for the last 15 years in the US. And the over-emphasis on public slow charging is now a barrier to BEV use in the US.

when L2 is the only option, that would be correct...

And my point is, for the vast majority of US BEV drivers today L2 is now the only option, either always, or even in States like Washington an Oregon, that have an embryonic DC infrastructure, L2 is frequently still the only option, depending on the travel route desired.

="evchels"
A variety of factors have contributed to the fact that BEVs aren't widespread today, but limited utility of L2 isn't one of them. If you've reports to the contrary, I'd love to see them.

Are you actually saying you need to see "reports" to understand that the multi-hour refueling procedure required by public L2, as opposed to the much faster DC rates, is a major obstacle to BEV adoption, for a large proportion of American drivers?

L2 is the perfect way to charge at a dedicated site for off-peak charging, wherever you park at night. And it certainly is every employers' or businesses' right (and a very good idea, IMO) to provide L2 for long-term parking by employees or customers.

But three to ten kW L2 charging has virtually no utility for the occasional longer trip where a multi-hour travel break is not desired. Pretending that many American drivers do not disqualify BEVs as their primary vehicles primarily due to the lack of reliable quick-charging opportunities is just not a realistic position to take.

 

[palmermd]

can we keep this thread related to Tesla Supercharger Network and put all the L2/DCQC discussions in the appropriate thread. Thanks. I know it is related, but we seem to be getting away from the merits of the Tesla network and just talking about general infrastructure development.

 

[mwalsh]

I don't know why we're talking about it at all. We aren't going to be able to use it. It belongs in Off Topic or, better still, on a Tesla forum someplace. Edit: IMHO.

 

[palmermd]

I don't know why we're talking about it at all. We aren't going to be able to use it. It belongs in Off Topic or, better still, on a Tesla forum someplace. Edit: IMHO.

Sure, At the time this was created it was not known what was going to be available at the sites, now that we know that it is Tesla only for the next year or two at a minimum, then yes, this could be moved to the Non Leaf/Other Electric cars category.

 

[GRA]

Than again, I am regularly accused of being way too pragmatic!

Just wait, you haven't yet been accused (on this board) of being an EV-hater, as have I and other pragmatists. :roll:

Wanna bet? I've gotten my share, believe me. Some on this forum, more on others.

That didn't take long. You may have set a new record!

Realizing that it's off-topic, I'll just say that I disagree with edatoakrun about the utility of L2. It's needed at trip destinations, workplaces, and if we're going to make BEVs viable for urban apartment dwellers in the near-term, in the city.

Of course, maybe technology in the form of self-driving cars will rescue us from the need to scatter L2s curbside in residential neighborhoods, allowing centralized parking with inductive pads in the pavement for charging. Call your car and it comes to you from its overnight parking/charging place. Or maybe urban apartment dwellers will all adopt car-sharing. Or batteries will become so cheap that we can all QC once a week.

 

[edatoakrun]

On topic:

I think what the Tesla Supercharger effort really shows, is the understanding that as BEVs increase their range, fast charging will become not only the norm for public recharging, but actually becomes more essential to BEV acceptance to the driving public. Will supercharger capable S owner often use a public L2s on a long trip (other than for overnight charging) except where the fast charge is unavailable?

Off-topic:

="GRA"
Just wait, you haven't yet been accused (on this board) of being an EV-hater, as have I and other pragmatists. :roll
That didn't take long. You may have set a new record! ...

No one on the last five pages of this thread has called anyone an "EV-hater".

Making a claim of victim-hood, just because the fallacies of your position are pointed out to you, is not helpful to any factual discussion.

"GRA"
Realizing that it's off-topic, I'll just say that I disagree with edatoakrun about the utility of L2. It's needed at trip destinations, workplaces, and if we're going to make BEVs viable for urban apartment dwellers in the near-term, in the city....

And mischaracterizing the comments of another is also an impediment to useful discussion.

For example, GRA you just stated You "disagree" with me, and went on to essentially restate my opinion on the utility of L2 from my comment yesterday:

edatoakrun
L2 is the perfect way to charge at a dedicated site for off-peak charging, wherever you park at night. And it certainly is every employers' or businesses' right (and a very good idea, IMO) to provide L2 for long-term parking by employees or customers...

The only significant difference between the two opinions appears to me to be your statement that L2 is "needed at trip destinations".

And I'd say for overnight stays, I agree with you, in order to utilize off-peak electricity.

For any day time recharging, however, I think that DC would be far preferable in the vast majority of cases, from the standpoint of both cost and reliability.

 

[GRA]

On topic:

I think what the Tesla Supercharger effort really shows, is the understanding that as BEVs increase their range, fast charging will become not only the norm for public recharging, but actually becomes more essential to BEV acceptance to the driving public. Will supercharger capable S owner often use a public L2s on a long trip (other than for overnight charging) except where the fast charge is unavailable?
Off-topic:

Just wait, you haven't yet been accused (on this board) of being an EV-hater, as have I and other pragmatists. :roll
That didn't take long. You may have set a new record! ...

No one on the last five pages of this thread has called anyone an "EV-hater".

Making a claim of victim-hood, just because the fallacies of your position are pointed out to you, is not helpful to any factual discussion.

I was replying to Chelsea's comment that she had already been called one on this board, not to anyone in this thread, and making no claims of victimhood.

Realizing that it's off-topic, I'll just say that I disagree with edatoakrun about the utility of L2. It's needed at trip destinations, workplaces, and if we're going to make BEVs viable for urban apartment dwellers in the near-term, in the city....

And mischaracterizing the comments of another is also an impediment to useful discussion.

For example, GRA you just stated You "disagree" with me, and went on to essentially restate my opinion on the utility of L2 from my comment yesterday:


L2 is the perfect way to charge at a dedicated site for off-peak charging, wherever you park at night. And it certainly is every employers' or businesses' right (and a very good idea, IMO) to provide L2 for long-term parking by employees or customers...

The only significant difference between the two opinions appears to me to be your statement that L2 is "needed at trip destinations".

And I'd say for overnight stays, I agree with you, in order to utilize off-peak electricity.

For any day time recharging, however, I think that DC would be far preferable in the vast majority of cases, from the standpoint of both cost and reliability.

We agree about the overnight stops, my disagreement is that QC is generally preferable for shorter daytime stops; I should have been more clear. I can think of many locations I regularly travel to, where QC is either not needed or else far too expensive to be cost-effective, but L2 would be fine. Especially since L2 is a lot gentler on the battery (technology may solve this problem).

Just as an example, I like to go out to Point Reyes to hike and bike; typically I spend most of the day there, often at a single site. There is now a QC being installed en route in Fairfax (Marin county), approximately 40 miles from me. So far, so good. But it's another 20-40 miles to destinations in Pt. Reyes, most of which get far too little traffic to justify QC, and those at the outer end of the range are pushing it to get back to Fairfax with only an 80% charge. However, two hours of L2 (@ 6.6kW or higher) is enough to get me back to Fairfax from those spots; for that matter, 4 or more hours of L2 to 100% would get me home from many locations there, so I wouldn't even need to stop for QCs enroute. The Bay Area has lots of day trip destinations where L2, with or without QC, is valuable. And some where it isn't. Clear now where our disagreement lies?

 

[Rat]

The thread might as well go in a DeLorean topic since the Tesla will be in the same place in another 10 years.

 

[mitch672]

The thread might as well go in a DeLorean topic since the Tesla will be in the same place in another 10 years.

Really, do tell. Perhaps you can use your time machine for the good of mankind.

Or, Tesla becomes bigger than GM, and Ford, and eventually buys them to have more manufacturing capabilities, they pay .10 on the dollar for their decrepit, shuttered plants, same way they bought NUMMI from Toyota and a bankrupt GM in 2008

The above scenario is just as likely to be their future as well. They built a better car, not just a better EV.

 

[FalconFour]

Or, Tesla becomes bigger than GM, and Ford, and eventually buys them to have more manufacturing capabilities, they pay .10 on the dollar for their decrepit, shuttered plants, same way they bought NUMMI from Toyota and a bankrupt GM in 2008

The above scenario is just as likely to be their future as well. They built a better car, not just a better EV.

^ This, and I'm a LEAF guy. History isn't often repeated by those that know the history. And you think Elon Musk hasn't studied every aspect of DeLorean's failure?

 

[planet4ever]

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:16 pm
Now, what I understand is that the "phallic monolith" of the Superchargers is what takes the high-voltage AC and turns it into high-voltage DC, then chargers/controllers in each pedestal control the flow to the cars. And in step with that, I noticed that Blink's fast charger is actually rated in volts DC, not volts AC, on the input side. That means to me that Blink's station already takes in DC power and merely controls the current flow (which is the key to knowing all DC fast chargers are future-proof, able to adapt to any standard because the mechanism is so simple).

Is that even technically possible? I thought with DC the only ways to control current were by adjusting voltage and resistance. Surely you aren't suggesting that the pedestal stations are adding artificial resistance!

(Sorry for the late response. I haven't been following this thread on a daily basis.)

Ray

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:16 pm
Now, what I understand is that the "phallic monolith" of the Superchargers is what takes the high-voltage AC and turns it into high-voltage DC, then chargers/controllers in each pedestal control the flow to the cars. And in step with that, I noticed that Blink's fast charger is actually rated in volts DC, not volts AC, on the input side. That means to me that Blink's station already takes in DC power and merely controls the current flow (which is the key to knowing all DC fast chargers are future-proof, able to adapt to any standard because the mechanism is so simple).

Is that even technically possible? I thought with DC the only ways to control current were by adjusting voltage and resistance. Surely you aren't suggesting that the pedestal stations are adding artificial resistance!

(Sorry for the late response. I haven't been following this thread on a daily basis.)

Ray

there would be a ac/dc transformer nearby to convert line power but if solar powered it would make sense since the solar would only have to be stepped up to the right voltage. sounds like there might be some off line storage plans for the future as well

 

[Randy]

The Blink DC FC units are comprised of two units. The Grid Power unit is usually off to the side or hidden and then the familar dispensing unit that is near the car...I believe the GPU takes in AC power from the grid and feeds DC power to the dispenser unit...

 

[mitch672]

Each SuperCharger consists of (12) standard Tesla Model S 10KW chargers, same one used internally on the Model S. they have been designed to be "ganged" together. They feed in the AC, and the chargers convert the power to DC to charge the cars.

Each SuperCharger is shared among 2 positions (thats why it's more than 90KW). While 1 car is tapering down, the other can be tapering up. If 2 Model S's arrive with a similar SOC, they each get 60KW to start. Of course once the SuperCharger site is built out, their can be as many a 3 SuperChargers at the site, serving 6 cars, so just use a SC not paired with another car to get the full 90KW initially.

Here is an article that was in the NY Times, where JB Straubel describes what the SC consists of:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/automobiles/on-an-electric-highway-charging-into-the-future.html?_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GREENEV]

If we're talking Tesla, I might as well just say that Tesla promises the sun, moon and stars, but the truth is have they really delivered? How long have reservation holders been waiting for a model S? As far as I know Tesla dealers don't even have a Model S to test drive. Tesla couldn't even show off the Model S at National Plug-In day events across the country. What a joke. I had to email Tesla twice before they answered me why they didn't participate in National Plug-In day events around the US.

I'd just like to see Tesla's long term reliability, better yet, short term reliability for starters.

Final thoughts: Tesla designs a beautiful car with many great standard features and options for the buyer, but I'm not sold on Tesla quite yet.

 

[mitch672]

If we're talking Tesla, I might as well just say that Tesla promises the sun, moon and stars, but the truth is have they really delivered? How long have reservation holders been waiting for a model S? As far as I know Tesla dealers don't even have a Model S to test drive. Tesla couldn't even show off the Model S at National Plug-In day events across the country. What a joke. I had to email Tesla twice before they answered me why they didn't participate in National Plug-In day events around the US.

I'd just like to see Tesla's long term reliability, better yet, short term reliability for starters.

Final thoughts: Tesla designs a beautiful car with many great standard features and options for the buyer, but I'm not sold on Tesla quite yet.

Go for a test drive in a Model S, that's all the convincing you'll need.

There are no "Tesla Dealers", they sell direct. They have 18 or so showrooms in malls so far, they are all owned by Tesla. They are a little busy right now to participate in events, the owners of their cars usually do, however.

Tesla is still essentially a startup, the Model S is their first car built from the ground up, it's s new design, not a rehashed ICE adaption. There have only been a few to date, the GM EV1' and a handful of others that have come and gone. They have 13,500 reservations from people who believe in them enough to put down $5,000 each.. They are delivering cars as fast as they can procure the parts and manufacture them, it's been a slow start a they get their supply chain issues worked out.

BTW, they completed a nationwide tour of the Model S, called "get amped", reservation holders signed up for test drives in cities across the country, there where about 40 Model S's use for this, some of them are now in the Tesla mall storefronts.

just go drive one, its worth the wait.

 

[mkjayakumar]

As Mitch said. Test drive one if you can. I drove during their Dallas GetAmped event and was blown away.

You complain about Tesla not showcasing Model S during the National plug-in day, but neither was Nissan or GM. All of the Leafs & Volts I saw here was were from owners like me or from Blink and eVgo.

 

[Zythryn]

If we're talking Tesla, I might as well just say that Tesla promises the sun, moon and stars, but the truth is have they really delivered? ...

In my case, they did deliver the sun, moon and stars! However, I don't think it is fair to say they have promised the sun, moon and stars.

The Model S is the best car I have ever driven, bar non.
As stated though, they are a start up company, working on their first 'all their own' design and a rate of deliveries two magnitudes higher than anything they have done before.

I don't blame anyone for wanting a test drive before ordering a car. By all means wait for that to be available. I just don't see the sense in slamming them for putting their customers first and dedicating most of those resources to ramping up production and deliveries.

As for national plug in day, I saw no manufactures at ours in MN. We had about 50 EV and PHEVs, a dealer or two, but no manufacturers.

 

[TEG]

...there would be a ac/dc transformer nearby to convert line power but if solar powered it would make sense since the solar would only have to be stepped up to the right voltage. sounds like there might be some off line storage plans for the future as well

Yeah, as said, Blinks have a separate box for the main charging equipment. The box with the touch pads and CHAdeMO cables is just a "dispensing station" and doesn't manipulate the high voltage. It sends low voltage signals from the touch pad controllers back to the main box to tell it when to turn on the power and how much to provide.

I think for the Superchargers, they also have a little box next to the car just to offer the cable interface. The actual charger is in a separate box, either a generic white cabinet, or in some cases the vertical "Teslobelisk" where having something prominent like that makes sense.

For Supercharger locations that have solar panels (and I think not all locations will have them), I suspect it is just a standard grid tied DC->AC inverter to make 208/240V to feed daytime power back into the grid. I doubt they are trying to do DC->DC straight from the panels to the car.

 

[palmermd]

Here is a quick little demo of the new pedestals that will be replacing the temporary ones that have the cable out in the open.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHpC-px2kSM[/youtube]