The 40KWH Battery Topic

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LeftieBiker

Well-known member
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Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
20,046
Location
Upstate New York, US
We need a place to post battery info, temperature observations, and other things relating to the new 40kwh pack. There are a few stats scattered in other topics, but having this one should make it easier to keep track of them. Links to the other posts would be a good idea.

When I went to pick up my 2018 SL the other evening, I took advantage of my salesman's need to finish up with other customers to take a quick LeafSpy reading. Here are the main stats (I'll try to post a snap of the screen later):

SOH: 99.59

Hx: 99.48

AH: 114.97

The pack looked extremely well balanced - no shunts at all, IIRC, and all the voltages close. SOC was 95% or so.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RnFL3g7tvMELhFhC8

Moving on to pack temp observations, I have a suggestion: since the temp gauge is a little...subjective to read, it might be best, when LeafSpy isn't available, to estimate the readings as a percentage, with the far left side of the virtual bar gauge being "0%" and the far right, at the end of the red zone, as 100%. Using that metric, I started the car this evening with the ambient temp at 86 or 87F, a huge rise after a morning low of 46F. The pack was still fairly cool, and I would estimate the gauge was reading "40%" along the scale - somewhat to the left of the middle. I also used an infrared touch-less thermometer to read the exterior (Scarlet) body temp (112F) and a digital thermometer I'd left in the backseat to measure the interior (black/grey seat covers and white trim) temp, which was 104.5F. All of this means little of course, because the pack, with its large thermal mass, hadn't warmed to anywhere near ambient.

It might also be interesting to get other readings of steel body panels (with color noted) in full sun, and interior temps with windows both closed and partially open, along with gauge and LeafSpy readings. One comparison I was able to make today was of my Scarlet Ember Leaf's body in full sun (112F), vs my housemate's "Sea Mist Pearl" (very light green/blue) Prius PHEV (99.5F) also in full sun, behind my car. I'm kind of wishing I'd gone with another Brilliant Silver Leaf after all...
 
@webeleafowners Remember to update the Coquihalla thread after the trip to Kelowna. Specifically, it would be interesting to know how many kWh of pack energy you lose from Hope to Merritt and from Merritt to Kelowna, and same for the return trip.

Also, if you can drop in at the Britton Creek rest area and see if they've done any work on DCQC installation, that would be much appreciated :)
 
Here’s my 2018 LeafSpy Battery Stat Page after picking up my new leaf and parking it in my driveway.

Just drove it about 40 miles from dealership to Home and hadn’t charged it yet.

SOC was 76%
AHr 113.99
SOH 98.74%
Hx 98.24%

Kz4Nb59l.jpg
 
That may explain the slightly lower SOH. If he can keep the car in an even slightly cooled garage overnights, I suggest that he do so. Letting the pack cool off may be critical for these cars.
 
alozzy said:
@webeleafowners Remember to update the Coquihalla thread after the trip to Kelowna. Specifically, it would be interesting to know how many kWh of pack energy you lose from Hope to Merritt and from Merritt to Kelowna, and same for the return trip.

Also, if you can drop in at the Britton Creek rest area and see if they've done any work on DCQC installation, that would be much appreciated :)

Good morning Leftie. We came from the other direction for that trip. We are in Vernon. We will be doing the Coquihala in July though so should be able to take a peak at Britton Creek. Maybe it will be done by then.
 
This will be tough to read until I can get it into a graph or chart of some sort but an example. Drive to work, park open air unshaded asphalt, batt temps 65º. Hottest day of the year upper 80's to low 90's depending on location. Car temps about 60-90 mins after peak temp 93º and batt temps were 69º so not a whole lot of difference. Hard to compare since this is not a data set I collected with prev models although I seem to remember temps rising a bit more than a few degrees. Drive home (13 miles, 50% Freeway) brought batt temps to 73º while ambient dropped no lower than 87º
 
LeftieBiker said:
We need a place to post battery info, temperature observations, and other things relating to the new 40kwh pack. There are a few stats scattered in other topics, but having this one should make it easier to keep track of them. Links to the other posts would be a good idea.

When I went to pick up my 2018 SL the other evening, I took advantage of my salesman's need to finish up with other customers to take a quick LeafSpy reading. Here are the main stats (I'll try to post a snap of the screen later):

SOH: 99.59

Hx: 99.48

AH: 114.97

The pack looked extremely well balanced - no shunts at all, IIRC, and all the voltages close. SOC was 95% or so.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RnFL3g7tvMELhFhC8

Moving on to pack temp observations, I have a suggestion: since the temp gauge is a little...subjective to read, it might be best, when LeafSpy isn't available, to estimate the readings as a percentage, with the far left side of the virtual bar gauge being "0%" and the far right, at the end of the red zone, as 100%. Using that metric, I started the car this evening with the ambient temp at 86 or 87F, a huge rise after a morning low of 46F. The pack was still fairly cool, and I would estimate the gauge was reading "40%" along the scale - somewhat to the left of the middle. I also used an infrared touch-less thermometer to read the exterior (Scarlet) body temp (112F) and a digital thermometer I'd left in the backseat to measure the interior (black/grey seat covers and white trim) temp, which was 104.5F. All of this means little of course, because the pack, with its large thermal mass, hadn't warmed to anywhere near ambient.

It might also be interesting to get other readings of steel body panels (with color noted) in full sun, and interior temps with windows both closed and partially open, along with gauge and LeafSpy readings. One comparison I was able to make today was of my Scarlet Ember Leaf's body in full sun (112F), vs my housemate's "Sea Mist Pearl" (very light green/blue) Prius PHEV (99.5F) also in full sun, behind my car. I'm kind of wishing I'd gone with another Brilliant Silver Leaf after all...


Your batt stats are shockingly similar to every 2018 I have seen.

Mine ahr/SOH/ HX; 115.05 99.66 99.86

Don't know what you consider the most indicative measure but I look at ahr primarily and after 3 days and 152 miles, it started to drop and has been rock steady consistent without fail. There was one day where I lost a big chunk; .76 ahr, .66% SOH. (Hx is super high and seems to be measuring someone else's pack or something... ) but other than that, its been generally .01 per day or less.
 
I heard one university (don't remember which one) they found a totally new approach to batteries that can increase the smartphone battery life for more than 100 times. I have written them and asked if this can be used in car batteries too, waiting for a reply.
Will update once I hear from them.
 
Just limiting the SOC to between 10% and 90% would likely do that. Toyota Prius NiMH batteries last so well because of a strict 20%/80% limit imposed by the BMS.

Anyway, I finally did my first QC ever, tonight. It almost didn't happen yet again, because EVgo seems to really not want my card to work. Having failed to get them to register it over email despite their promise to do so, I called their help line from the station, and after 10 short minutes of talking to a friendly agent, I was ready to charge. Sadly, I had only allotted 20 minutes for the charge. Still, I plugged in for 13 minutes.

The battery temp at the beginning was about 45% (see my suggested scale in the first post here). The station, much to my surprise, quickly ramped up to 100 amps. Sort of odd, as I thought my car was limited to 50 amps, but...? After 13 minutes I had gone from about 47% SOC to 60%. The battery temp only went to about 55%. The ambient temp was low though - 62F. I'm going to do another LeafSpy reading this coming week.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Just limiting the SOC to between 10% and 90% would likely do that. Toyota Prius NiMH batteries last so well because of a strict 20%/80% limit imposed by the BMS.

Anyway, I finally did my first QC ever, tonight. It almost didn't happen yet again, because EVgo seems to really not want my card to work. Having failed to get them to register it over email despite their promise to do so, I called their help line from the station, and after 10 short minutes of talking to a friendly agent, I was ready to charge. Sadly, I had only allotted 20 minutes for the charge. Still, I plugged in for 13 minutes.

The battery temp at the beginning was about 45% (see my suggested scale in the first post here). The station, much to my surprise, quickly ramped up to 100 amps. Sort of odd, as I thought my car was limited to 50 amps, but...? After 13 minutes I had gone from about 47% SOC to 60%. The battery temp only went to about 55%. The ambient temp was low though - 62F. I'm going to do another LeafSpy reading this coming week.

I think you are confusing max charge rate of 50 KW for amperage. Sounds like the station can supply 40 KW to the car as long as starting SOC is below 60% and batteries are not too hot but the voltage of the pack will lower the power supplied.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Just limiting the SOC to between 10% and 90% would likely do that. Toyota Prius NiMH batteries last so well because of a strict 20%/80% limit imposed by the BMS.
That certainly helps, but there is a lot more to the story. Toyota designed the battery capacity to allow for substantial degradation before the fuel economy would suffer while still retaining the original buffers. I think it is pretty typical for 10 year Prius batteries to have up to 50% usable capacity loss but still retain like new fuel economy. BEV do not have that engineering luxury since the battery is providing range rather than just flywheel function for the ICE.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Thanks for posting that. Where (city/state) do you live?

I’m about 50 miles south of Tampa Florida.

When I bought my new 2015 Leaf I knew nothing. The Leaf sat on the dealer lot for about 10 months before I purchased it. I ran LeafSpy about a month after purchase and this is the result. It was already at SOH of 94%. so it lost 6% just sitting on dealer lot in that 10 months.

8erUGBTl.jpg


It’s normally kept in the garage, low mileage and it still had 12 bars. Per LeafSpy it was about to loose 1 bar. This is LeafSpy last Tuesday, the day it was traded. SOH 85.52% Hx 75.04%

It’s plugged in after every trip and charge timer was set to start charge so it would be fully charged at 8am next morning.

Ogf9Ia3l.jpg
 
Yeah, unfortunately, a Leaf is like a loaf of bread at the bakery.... You don't want one that has been laying around too long....

Dealers also are ignorant, and don't bother to charge any of the cars unless they do not run... I have looked at tons of Leafs (to buy) that when you turn them on have only 10%... So if they do not sell that car soon, they poor car will lay at 10% for months!!!
 
I think you are confusing max charge rate of 50 KW for amperage. Sounds like the station can supply 40 KW to the car as long as starting SOC is below 60% and batteries are not too hot but the voltage of the pack will lower the power supplied.

Yeah, that's it. I've never had QC before, and haven't followed the topics on it closely enough. Given my needs and the free charge up to 30 minutes with No Charge To Charge, that station will work well to just top me up once a week. My home L-1 can then be used to add any needed smaller amounts.
 
As you may have seen from my thread, "Using speed to control battery temperature" I am trying to figure out if it's possible to control battery temperature so the TMS doesn't restrict current flow during charging. But there two things that I need to know to help me with my quest:

1. At what battery temperature does the TMS restrict CHAdeMO charging current flow?
2. What is the battery temperature rise CHAdeMO charging a cool battery at full amps from 20% to 80% charge?

I need more accurate reading than the Leaf Battery Temperature Gauge provides. I should be able to get the accuracy I need with LeafSpay but I don't have LeafSpy yet and it will probably a few weeks before I get LeafSpy. Can anyone that already has LeafSpy capture this information for us?
 
TexasLeaf said:
As you may have seen from my thread, "Using speed to control battery temperature" I am trying to figure out if it's possible to control battery temperature so the TMS doesn't restrict current flow during charging. But there two things that I need to know to help me with my quest:

1. At what battery temperature does the TMS restrict CHAdeMO charging current flow?
2. What is the battery temperature rise CHAdeMO charging a cool battery at full amps from 20% to 80% charge?

I need more accurate reading than the Leaf Battery Temperature Gauge provides. I should be able to get the accuracy I need with LeafSpay but I don't have LeafSpy yet and it will probably a few weeks before I get LeafSpy. Can anyone that already has LeafSpy capture this information for us?

1) Roughly the low 90's. The slowdown is tapered based on temps at start of the charge and SOC.

2) This varies a lot but expect temps to be anywhere from mid 100's to the low 120's. In anything temperature, ambient plays a huge part.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TexasLeaf said:
1. At what battery temperature does the TMS restrict CHAdeMO charging current flow?
2. What is the battery temperature rise CHAdeMO charging a cool battery at full amps from 20% to 80% charge?

1) Roughly the low 90's. The slowdown is tapered based on temps at start of the charge and SOC.
2) This varies a lot but expect temps to be anywhere from mid 100's to the low 120's. In anything temperature, ambient plays a huge part.

I'm sorry but I am very skeptical of your information. I didn't think the current restriction starts until the battery temperature hit 10 bars and 10 bars doesn't even start until around 120 degrees (http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery). Your response to question 2 is meaningless because you have not identified the temperature "rise".

If you have some real data to shall I would be happy to see. If all you have is conjecture and speculation please don't bother.
 
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