Thinking of Getting A Leaf

[Graycenphil]

We are due for a new vehicle soon, and I think it will be electric. Almost surely used, partly because the incentives here in Connecticut aren't very good. Also because it is much cheaper. We're considering the Volt too.

Instead of reading the Sunday newspaper, I may just spend the day cruising around this forum. Still, if anyone wants to offer any particular advice or insights (or a car for sale cheap?) in this thread, please do so.

Looks like a great forum. Thanks.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Top considerations:

How many miles do you need every day? Does that number vary? What's the most you would need in a day?

Do you have a garage? Could you charge at home otherwise?

Do you have a second car for long trips?

 

[Graycenphil]

We will have a second car for longer trips. Need to drive 20 miles per day, but would also expect to a;; sorts of errands, from 2 miles to 50. Would also try to do a 120 mile roundtrip once a week or so, but that would include several hours at the midpoint when I could plug it in.
It would be garaged, and I guess plugged in whenever it's in the garage.

 

[stjohnh]

Sounds like you meet the basic requirements to be a satisfied Leaf owner:

Interest in electric
Have vehicle for longer trips
Max distance needed before charging=60mi (1/2 of the 120 weekly trip)
No problems charging at home.

The one question is trips during winter. Your 120 mile round trip shouldn't be a problem in warmer weather, but especially with a used Leaf, you may have difficulty going 60 miles in zero degree winter weather. If you can take your backup vehicle, sounds golden.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Sounds very good, 20 miles is easy even with an old, degraded battery, with heat on in sub-zero weather. Check the car fax, a good used LEAF will have lived in a milder climate, not the desert SW where the worst degradation occurs. A used Volt is smaller, removes the range anxiety, but adds ICE related maintenance, and of course, gas.

Go up on PlugShare.com and check out charge station locations where you would drive. There are QCs now in Middletown and Waterbury for the LEAF, and a good amount of L2s.

There are several good L2 options for your garage, any of them will make a LEAF more useful, especially if you find a used '13 with the faster 6.0 kW OBD (On Board Charger) a '13 would also have the improved heater.

 

[Graycenphil]

Thanks for the encouragement and the quick responses. Is the heater that bad in the early ones? (I am otherwise inclined to buy an older Leaf, just because there seem to still be many low mileage ones and they are less expensive. On a cold winter day, how much is your mileage reduced by running the heater? For that matter, how much is it reduced on a hot summer day with the A/C?

There were high speed chargers for the early Leafs too, weren't there?

Apologies if these questions have all been answered already in the forum. I will be reading through it today.

 

[KillaWhat]

Thanks for the encouragement and the quick responses. Is the heater that bad in the early ones? (I am otherwise inclined to buy an older Leaf, just because there seem to still be many low mileage ones and they are less expensive. On a cold winter day, how much is your mileage reduced by running the heater? For that matter, how much is it reduced on a hot summer day with the A/C?

There were high speed chargers for the early Leafs too, weren't there?

Apologies if these questions have all been answered already in the forum. I will be reading through it today.

The heaters are not "bad", they just draw more power than the heat pump units.
My 12 leaf is equipped with a DCQC charge port, Yes.
We are actually getting some DCQC finally, which makes charging out and about workable.

What you have to consider are the incentives to buy a NEW Leaf.
I got $7500 Federal Tax Credit, and an actual $3500 Check from the State of Pennsylvania wen I purchased.

That's $11,000 right off the top.
Pretty hard to justify buying used unless you can get a 2012 for $12K or something.
I don't know the current pricing structure, but if a new list price is $30K, and your actual cost is 19K???
Why would you buy used?

Don't know where you live (might want to update your location in the control panel), but many states offer some type of incentive.

 

[Graycenphil]

I'm in Connecticut. As far as I can tell, there are no state incentives. There are a few state incentives NOT to buy a new one - sales tax, higher annual personal property tax.

I have seen that some states offer pretty extraordinary incentives. I'm surprised the used prices aren't even lower, as a result of the great incentives.

As I understand it, the $7,500 federal credit is only for new cars?

 

[dgpcolorado]

As I understand it, the $7,500 federal credit is only for new cars?

That is correct.

I'm in Connecticut. As far as I can tell, there are no state incentives. There are a few state incentives NOT to buy a new one - sales tax, higher annual personal property tax.

I have seen that some states offer pretty extraordinary incentives. I'm surprised the used prices aren't even lower, as a result of the great incentives.

You make a good point about the costs of buying a new versus used vehicle (sales tax, registration fees and the like). Insurance is also likely lower on a used car. These new car costs are one of the things I think about whenever I get the urge to trade in my car for a new one. I'm used to keeping cars for 20+ years.

The only problem with buying used is that the current LEAF battery degrades quickly. If you can live with the decreased — and decreasing — range of a used LEAF it could be a good deal. If you got a LEAF with 90% battery capacity, you could pretty much forget about winter trips of 60 miles per leg without stopping to charge enroute. But the 20 mile commute would be easy even in snow with the heater on.

My impression is that used LEAF prices are quite low. I figure I'd be lucky to get $15k for my 2 year old LEAF with 15K miles. Are you seeing prices much higher than that?

 

[UBUYGAS]

You don't happen to work in New Haven?

In New Haven you can park for free with an EV:

"June 6, 2005 the City of New Haven became the fourth city in the United States, and the only in CT, to pass an ordinance allowing free metered parking for hybrid and alternative fuel vehicle cars.
This ordinance is part of an effort in New Haven to reduce toxic emissions. The city of New Haven has also converted the city fleet to hybrids, retrofitted school buses with diesel emissions reducing technology, and has built two hydrogen fuel cell buses. The City of New Haven can be called “the hybrid capital of Connecticut.”
The ordinance applies only to alternative fuel vehicles registered in New Haven. Owners will have to come to City Hall, 165 Church Street, with proof that the vehicle is a hybrid or alternative fuel vehicle and currently registered in New Haven, to receive a decal which will be attached to the vehicle.

Motorists will still need to obey posted time limits and must park in legal spots."

We are due for a new vehicle soon, and I think it will be electric. Almost surely used, partly because the incentives here in Connecticut aren't very good. Also because it is much cheaper. We're considering the Volt too.

Instead of reading the Sunday newspaper, I may just spend the day cruising around this forum. Still, if anyone wants to offer any particular advice or insights (or a car for sale cheap?) in this thread, please do so.

Looks like a great forum. Thanks.

 

[Graycenphil]

Very nice that New Haven is doing that with the parking, but no I don't work there and hardly ever even go into town. When I do, I'll be sure to enjoy the free parking.

Prices seem to be around 15K here too. That seems high to me because I know that the original owner may have paid under 20K brand new, if they bought it in a state with good incentives. With all the battery degradation reports, it does seem buying a used one is much riskier. I'd have thought that might be reflected in better prices.

Speaking of which, that seems to be the only issue anyone is complaining about. Can I assume then that braking, suspension, heating, air conditioning, electrical, etc are all very reliable?

As for the battery, if I look at a used Leaf and it shows all 12 bars for the battery, am I pretty much assured a good one?

And I'm having a tough time getting a clear picture on the chargers. Do all vehicles have the capability for some charging better than the minimum 120 volt/ 8 amp? Or does the car have to have an optional unit to charge it at 220 volts?

Thanks again. Really great forum.

 

[UBUYGAS]

I was thinking of buying used and the dealer I went to had a 2011 with 12K miles for $19k and my car which is a 13 SL for 34K

I test drove the 11 and it felt fine and still had all 12 battery bars; the only thing I did not like was the dirty beige interior. It was a fleet car for a company and it had caked on dirt from many people. I really didn't want everyone else's dirt.


Do you belong to Costco?, I used their website to register that I wanted a new car and they send a list of dealers they are affiliated with, of you go to their dealers you can save $2000 to $2500 off a new car.


As per the chargers (EVSE):

The LEAF comes with a Level 1 12Amp EVSE that plugs into a standard Nema 15 Receptacle just like what you have in your house that you plug your TV into. With the 6.6kWh charger in the LEAF it'll take 16 hours to charge from Zero % to 100%

You can buy a Level 2 EVSE that draws 16Amps to 40Amps

If you want to save some money then send your original EVSE that comes with the LEAF to http://www.evseupgrade.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it'll only cost you $287.00 and You'll be able to charge at Level 2 speeds.

There are other options out there for Level 2 EVSEs from $500 to $1000, You'll need to research their features and decide which is best for you.

I have a 40A Leviton that was $1100.00 and I also upgraded my Stock unit with evseupgrade.com



I have this unit at home, it puts out 9.6kWh which the LEAF cannot handle. So my EVSE is over-rated for what I need. For some that is a waste of money but for me I rather have a unit that can put out more watts.

http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-EVB40-PST-Charging-Station-Installation/dp/B00DG1479A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390166780&sr=8-1&keywords=leviton+evse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I read about a lot of people buying this unit;

http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-VC30BLKB-VersiCharge-Electric-Vehicle/dp/B0083ZZFEA/ref=pd_sim_hi_2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Then there's the Clipper Creek, $590 for 30A, How can you go wrong?

http://clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-40-30a-240v-charging-25-cord-3/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[dfwJim]

And I'm having a tough time getting a clear picture on the chargers. Do all vehicles have the capability for some charging better than the minimum 120 volt/ 8 amp? Or does the car have to have an optional unit to charge it at 220 volts?

In newbie terms, every Leaf can charge at 110v or 220v. It comes with a cable for 110v home charging in a standard outlet. 220v home charging requires additional equipment--for the home, not for the car--and in some locales there are (were?) tax credits available. There is also a "quick charge"/QC capability (~30 minutes to 80% charge) which requires an additional port on the car, and not all Leafs have that. QC is a service you may find for public stations, not for home use.

 

[Graycenphil]

QC sounds like something that one would really want to have - it means you can use the car for longer trips if there is a quick charging station near your destination. Or one near a restaurant or coffee shop on the way home. Can it be added to any vehicles? Are the earlier ones less likely to have it?

I've noticed the used car ads don't mention the home chargers. I would think some people selling the car, and not buying another electric, would throw that in too.

BTW, if anyone on the forum is looking to trade in their Leaf, and the dealer is not offering a good price, please let me know.

 

[TimLee]

QC sounds like something that one would really want to have - it means you can use the car for longer trips if there is a quick charging station near your destination. Or one near a restaurant or coffee shop on the way home. Can it be added to any vehicles? Are the earlier ones less likely to have it?

No, DCQC cannot be added. Must be factory installed.
Many early 2011 customers were in the government EVproject. They got an SL-etec model that included DCQC at no cost. All 2012 SL models had it. Overall a large % of LEAFs have it.

 

[LeftieBiker]

QC sounds like something that one would really want to have - it means you can use the car for longer trips if there is a quick charging station near your destination.

Make sure that there is actually a QC station near you. I live in Upstate NY, and there are no - zero - QC stations in the area. Part of the reason I got a good lease deal, I think, is my Leaf has no QC port. But with no QC stations, what's it matter?

A Leaf showing 12 capacity bars may be on the verge of dropping one, and thus only have 11 'real' bars. The only accurate way to tell capacity is to use the leaf Spy app with a connecting cable for the OBDII port in the car. This will tell you the actual capacity in amp-hours.

 

[RonDawg]

Is the heater that bad in the early ones?

As already mentioned, it is quite power hungry. But if you can pre-heat while still plugged in (if the car you get still has an active CarWings subscription, this can be done from a web browser or smart phone app as well), that can help reduce your heater usage especially with a short commute.

Look for a Leaf that has the seat and steering wheel heaters to help reduce heater usage. All 2012 and later Leafs have it; I'm not sure if it was an option on the 2011's.

For that matter, how much is it reduced on a hot summer day with the A/C?

Unlike with the heater, A/C usage has minimal effect on range, at least with the pre-2013 models.

 

[RonDawg]

I've noticed the used car ads don't mention the home chargers. I would think some people selling the car, and not buying another electric, would throw that in too.

The AeroVironment units purchased through Nissan dealers, like many EVSE's still available today (you will quickly find out on this forum that for 120 and 240 volt charging, the "charger" part is in the car itself, what you are referring to is an EVSE), are hard-wired units. Someone who is not comfortable working around especially 240 volt electricity may not think it's worth it to remove it.

Some former Leafers have also gone to PHEVs instead, like a Volt or a Ford Energi series, so their old EVSE is still useful to them. A few have upgraded to Teslas as well, though the ones that come with the Tesla are more powerful than the ones available through Nissan dealers.

Unlike just a few years ago, EVSE's can be had relatively inexpensively today. They start at $450 for the Bosch 16 amp model. If you already have a 240 volt plug of sufficient capacity, you can get a Clipper Creek LCS-25P for $550. Those who bought through Nissan were paying much more.

If you want a used EVSE to go with your used Leaf, check the Marketplace section of this forum. I recall one person posted there specifically to sell a Nissan-branded AeroVironment unit that came with the house he just bought, and he does not own any sort of plug in car. (EDIT: never mind, it was already sold, but do check in there from time to time).

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Thanks for the encouragement and the quick responses. Is the heater that bad in the early ones? (I am otherwise inclined to buy an older Leaf, just because there seem to still be many low mileage ones and they are less expensive. On a cold winter day, how much is your mileage reduced by running the heater? For that matter, how much is it reduced on a hot summer day with the A/C?

There were high speed chargers for the early Leafs too, weren't there?

Apologies if these questions have all been answered already in the forum. I will be reading through it today.

There may be incentives in future but no , not yet.

The '11 and '12 LEAFs had a 3.3 kW OBC that adds about 10-12 miles per hour of charging @ 240 volts, about three times as fast as 120 volts. At 20 miles/day you could get by with the 120 volt EVSE that comes with the car, but you'll be happier with a 240 volt. EVSEupgrade.com is a good option as it's less expensive and portable, you could use it at campgrounds. There's not a lot of public charging infrastructure around Eastford. Closest L2 looks to be Putnam. Closest QC would be Auburn MA. You'll probably do most of your charging at home.

The heaters in '11s & '12s were resistance heaters. My range drops from 70 miles in summer to 45-50 in zero temps, due to heater use and the battery holds less charge in the cold.

Assume any used LEAF will have lost at least 10% of its original capacity, even with 12 bars. The first one goes around 15%, and the second around 20% I think. But if you use the car for only local trips, and your other car for long trips, and on the coldest days of winter when you might be pushing it, it should work for you.

Some of the '11s didn't have the winter package, battery heater, seat and steering wheel heaters. You'll want that. AC has little effect on range.

 

[dfwJim]

QC sounds like something that one would really want to have - it means you can use the car for longer trips if there is a quick charging station near your destination. Or one near a restaurant or coffee shop on the way home.

I have only test-driven a leaf, but I find it hard to imagine myself planning a trip around a QC, especially if I had a gasoline car as backup. I imagine that if it takes about an hour to drive from full charge to zero range, stopping ~30 minutes for a QC increases the trip time at least 50%. Also, I'm pretty sure QC is much more expensive than home charging, possibly costing as much or more than the gasoline the backup car would use.

On the other hand, all else being equal, it would seem to be better to have the ability.

I've noticed the used car ads don't mention the home chargers. I would think some people selling the car, and not buying another electric, would throw that in too.

I think at first they were required to be hard-wired, and early adopters paid $1k-$2k to get the station installed, so for various reasons I wouldn't expect to get a 240v charging station thrown in the deal. But it wouldn't hurt to ask.