Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[KJD]

Yes 5500 for a Lithium pack is a good price. Well done Nissan.

A few years back I built an EV conversion with a lead acid pack that cost me 4500. It did not have near the performance of the LEAF and Lead Acid has a much shorter life span than Lithium. You can see my conversion here. http://evalbum.com/3175" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I hope we get a few 2015 drivers on the forum to get some numbers from Leaf Spy and post them here. It will be interesting to find out how much better the new lizard pack is compared to the old pre-lizard pack.

 

[TomT]

It will take at least a year to get any meaningful data...

Now I hope we get a few 2015 drivers on the forum to get some numbers from Leaf Spy and post them here. It will be interesting to find out how much better the new lizard pack is compared to the old pre-lizard pack.

 

[sparky]

The conventional wisdom is that batteries cost $500/kWh. that would have made the replacement battery cost some $12k. Reduce that by salvage value - say $3k - and we are still looking at close to $10k.
That makes $5.5k a big deal - not just a deal.

It seems EVDRIVER called this almost 2 years ago; so, perhaps the price isn't anything special, just the fact that we can now purchase a pack.

Folks, a new pack for the LEAF today is under $6K. So not so bad in parts cost.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/posting.php?mode=quote&f=30&p=226765

 

[electricfuture]

Thanks Nissan – this looks like a great deal for me as I seem to be in the sweet spot. 3 year old 2011 SV with 37,000 miles and already lost 3 bars – most probably will lose the 4th easily within a year. Thus I will get the 2015 battery upgrade free including the retrofit kit at around 40-45,000 miles in a 4 year old car. If the new battery chemistry lasts 4-5 years that will be 8-9 years before I would have to buy a battery pack. Current cost $6000 but I am sure that the cost will go down (average drop 6% per year according to economist) and/or the range will go up. Even at today’s cost that would only be $60 per month.

Keeping the “old” car 9 years from now with a new battery pack to me is a no brainer. Having kept cars over 20 years in the past I look at the average cost of ownership per year to see the real value in keeping the old car looking and running good. I know that new tires/shocks/struts and it rides like new. An electric motor does not lose efficiency, just blow the dust out of it every 100,000 miles. Automotive electronics are very hardy and the Leaf is well built, so I am in it for the long haul.

I look at cost of ownership after installing my PV panels: $19,800 (my Leaf cost after subsidies) + $6000 (battery) + Tires ($1800 3 changes) + $200 (break job) + $200 (shocks) = $28,000 over 9 years. So the cost of ownership is only $3111 per year including fuel cost. Also license fees will reduce every year with the age of the car. Moreover, inflation will have little impact on these costs thanks to PV.

This makes owning an ICE look ridicules. Current gas prices here in CA $4.19/gal and rising. Oil changes - $60 and rising, parts and rising labor charges for timing belt, other belts, air, oil filters, radiator hoses, transmission flushes, exhaust repairs, smog checks, non-cap brake jobs, plugs, electrical harness, rear end bearing, water pump, head gaskets, rings, etc. - been there done that. Does anybody really think that gasoline and labor cost for the maintenance will be the same over the next 5 – years?

 

[spike09]

Hi all:

I’m happy to be back to provide a long-awaited update on the Nissan LEAF battery replacement plan.

Battery replacements are now available for purchase at your certified Nissan LEAF dealers in the United States. The suggested retail price of the Nissan LEAF battery pack is $5,499.

These replacement batteries are the same battery found in 2015 LEAF vehicles, which are also on sale now at Nissan dealers. As a replacement, this battery is expected to provide similar range and charging characteristics as the battery offered since the launch of the LEAF in 2010. Changes in battery chemistry, however, have been made in an effort to make the battery more durable in extremely hot climates.

Replacement packs will carry similar warranty coverage as a new LEAF: 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss.

Thank you all for your patience on this topic. We’ve been hard at work developing a plan driven by your feedback, and we hope you’re satisfied with the results.

Brian

--

Yes Brian, I am satisfied. The improved battery chemistry is exciting news indeed! Continue to innovate and lead the EV market. Very satisfied Nissan.

 

[TomT]

Well, read carefully and it does not exactly say that... It refers to the lizard battery if you BUY a replacement... It makes no mention of it in regards to a 4BL warrant replacement for earlier cars...
Perhaps that is their intention and it will be clarified later, but that is not what it says...

Thanks Nissan – this looks like a great deal for me as I seem to be in the sweet spot. 3 year old 2011 SV with 37,000 miles and already lost 3 bars – most probably will lose the 4th easily within a year. Thus I will get the 2015 battery upgrade free including the retrofit kit at around 40-45,000 miles in a 4 year old car.

 

[thankyouOB]

I look at cost of ownership after installing my PV panels: $19,800 (my Leaf cost after subsidies) + $6000 (battery) + Tires ($1800 3 changes) + $200 (break job) + $200 (shocks) = $28,000 over 9 years. So the cost of ownership is only $3111 per year including fuel cost. Also license fees will reduce every year with the age of the car. Moreover, inflation will have little impact on these costs thanks to PV.

i dont disagree with you that this is a good deal, but if you are going to figure in "free" power (and contrast the cost of gasoline, too), you should prolly add the cost of the PV system to your 28k.

 

[tvo7]

Thanks Nissan – this looks like a great deal for me as I seem to be in the sweet spot. 3 year old 2011 SV with 37,000 miles and already lost 3 bars – most probably will lose the 4th easily within a year. Thus I will get the 2015 battery upgrade free including the retrofit kit at around 40-45,000 miles in a 4 year old car. If the new battery chemistry lasts 4-5 years that will be 8-9 years before I would have to buy a battery pack. Current cost $6000 but I am sure that the cost will go down (average drop 6% per year according to economist) and/or the range will go up. Even at today’s cost that would only be $60 per month.

Keeping the “old” car 9 years from now with a new battery pack to me is a no brainer. Having kept cars over 20 years in the past I look at the average cost of ownership per year to see the real value in keeping the old car looking and running good. I know that new tires/shocks/struts and it rides like new. An electric motor does not lose efficiency, just blow the dust out of it every 100,000 miles. Automotive electronics are very hardy and the Leaf is well built, so I am in it for the long haul.

I look at cost of ownership after installing my PV panels: $19,800 (my Leaf cost after subsidies) + $6000 (battery) + Tires ($1800 3 changes) + $200 (break job) + $200 (shocks) = $28,000 over 9 years. So the cost of ownership is only $3111 per year including fuel cost. Also license fees will reduce every year with the age of the car. Moreover, inflation will have little impact on these costs thanks to PV.

This makes owning an ICE look ridicules. Current gas prices here in CA $4.19/gal and rising. Oil changes - $60 and rising, parts and rising labor charges for timing belt, other belts, air, oil filters, radiator hoses, transmission flushes, exhaust repairs, smog checks, non-cap brake jobs, plugs, electrical harness, rear end bearing, water pump, head gaskets, rings, etc. - been there done that. Does anybody really think that gasoline and labor cost for the maintenance will be the same over the next 5 – years?

Hello, I am a newbie in the calculation of the Nissan Leaf value. I have a 2012 SL with 20k miles and lost 2 bars in 2 years, so year 3, I probably will lose another bar. My main reason to buy the Leaf was to save money on buying gas. After losing 2 bars, I can't go as far anymore, so now I limited to about 30 miles a day of work travel. Can't go long distance to different nightlife activities. So lets say at 4 years, I lose 4 bars and start getting fed up with the range. I have to buy a 6 k battery pack. I feel like instead of buying gas, now I am buying batteries. So has the Leaf helped me save money? Don't get me wrong, I am a die hard electric car fan, but I feel having to replace the battery = paying for gas. So where is the savings?

 

[Newporttom]

Hello, I am a newbie in the calculation of the Nissan Leaf value. I have a 2012 SL with 20k miles and lost 2 bars in 2 years, so year 3, I probably will lose another bar. My main reason to buy the Leaf was to save money on buying gas. After losing 2 bars, I can't go as far anymore, so now I limited to about 30 miles a day of work travel. Can't go long distance to different nightlife activities. So lets say at 4 years, I lose 4 bars and start getting fed up with the range. I have to buy a 6 k battery pack. I feel like instead of buying gas, now I am buying batteries. So has the Leaf helped me save money? Don't get me wrong, I am a die hard electric car fan, but I feel having to replace the battery = paying for gas. So where is the savings?

At 4 years you will get totally free new batteries.

 

[Valdemar]

So where is the savings?

Compared to what?

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

So where is the savings?

Compared to what?

There may be more collective wisdom in the market than we give credit for why the LEAF hasn't taken off. The cost of one battery replacement plus electricity would buy gas for five years give or take. When you consider that fuel is only one component in TCO in the long run the cost of a LEAF compared to a modest gas car is a rounding error. If you live in a state where there are extra subsidies and the climate is friendlier to the battery the story is a little better but for someone like me living in a state with neither it's basically a car that burns lithium instead of gas.

 

[KJD]

There may be more collective wisdom in the market than we give credit for why the LEAF hasn't taken off. The cost of one battery replacement plus electricity would buy gas for five years give or take. When you consider that fuel is only one component in TCO in the long run the cost of a LEAF compared to a modest gas car is a rounding error. If you live in a state where there are extra subsidies and the climate is friendlier to the battery the story is a little better but for someone like me living in a state with neither it's basically a car that burns lithium instead of gas.

In Utah we have a horrible air pollution problem. According to the Utah Division of Air Quality 60% of the pollution in this area is from cars and trucks. My LEAF recharged with solar power does not contribute to that problem. That is reason enough for me to drive electric.

The cost of battery replacement is one consideration, however it is far from the only consideration.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I spend a fair amount of time in Utah and am well aware of the air pollution problems in the salt lake valley. There are lots of reasons the technology should be pursued, my point was just that people aren't going to save much with the current state of affairs, and that equates to a slow take rate in the market as most people aren't thinking beyond how the decision directly affects their situation.

 

[mwalsh]

Well, read carefully and it does not exactly say that... It refers to the lizard battery if you BUY a replacement... It makes no mention of it in regards to a 4BL warrant replacement for earlier cars...
Perhaps that is their intention and it will be clarified later, but that is not what it says...

I believe Chelsea confirmed that Lizard packs as warranty replacements had been part of the discussion, when I brought it up as something desirable in a post a few pages back.

 

[myleaf]

Good point. I wonder what happened to the coupon that warranty replacement people were told they would get for a lizard battery later...

I've confirmed this is still going to happen, though I expect the logistics of how exactly it will work were probably being sorted in parallel with this effort and the lizard battery becoming available to dealers. Now that it has, details should be forthcoming.

For those not "black-listed" with the B0133 notation against their cars, I'd like to see an upgrade path under warranty replacement, so that an owner get get the lizard pack and update hardware rather than a remanufactured/new battery pack of the old type shipped from Japan. Preferably at no additional cost (can't be any less to freight from Japan than it would be to giving up a couple of hundred bucks of hardware, right?), but at nominal cost if Nissan feels that's what is has to do.

I've not heard anything other than that warranty replacements would be done with the lizard pack, once they were available. That's been the suggestion since the hot pack was announced last Aug.

I believe this is the message that is being referenced.

 

[Mx5racer]

Just wanted to add another positive for Nissan
Releasing this information and setting a more than fair price on the battery
Helps me to recommend the leaf again.

Before this information I would have warned everyone about the degrading and discouraged them from buying a Leaf.

 

[Becky50]

+1 for a positive response to the purchase price of a replacement battery. I purchased my LEAF & have been more than pleased. It has lived up to all of my expectations. Good job!

 

[TomT]

I don't believe that telling them they can get a new battery for "only 6 grand" is going to change that many minds in that regard...

Before this information I would have warned everyone about the degrading and discouraged them from buying a Leaf.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Mr Brockman did confirm that this is the more durable chemistry that goes in the 2015 models.

Sorry in my excitement I read right past that.

I'm a lot more enthusiastic about staying on board the Leaf train than I was an hour ago. Now I need to figure out my strategy:

I opted out, so buying out the lease looks like a bad idea, plus it's a 2012 with the 3kw charger, so I'm thinking that one goes back to Nissan no matter what. Maybe I really do want to try to find a 2014 with the old battery? Does my opt-out only pertain to the car I have, not a future one (ie would I get the 5yr 60k warranty on a 2014?). Or do 2014s maybe have the lizard battery too?

have you actually done a math analysis? you of course will have the option to pull the trigger on this purchase at any time but I would think that doing so while under warranty would not be likely so you would have more than 50,000 miles on your LEAF so if you were to take general maintenance costs and electricity costs of your LEAF and translate that to a gasser, what MPGs would you have to hit to break even on the battery purchase?

keeping in mind of course this ONLY answers the financial question. there has much said on the EV experience so no need to rehash that there.

FYI; going to Great Wolf for the 4th. Its an indoor water park that strives to provide a Disney like atmosphere (it doesnt) and its realistically 2.5X more expensive than comparable hotels.
But as returning customers we get a "bargain" making it only about 1.5X more expensive. It is a losing proposition for sure but the treasure hunt thru out the hotel, the water park itself and the overpriced restaurants are only accessible with the hotel reservation so we pay it. There are a lot of other options but as we all know, most public places will be overwhelmed for the 4th since it will be a 3 day weekend for most. The best thing about Great Wolf is because hotel reservations are required for access to any ammenity, its crowd level is relatively controlled so anyway...

I guess sometimes the "balance sheet" of life is not as easy to calculate as we want it to be. The math in this scenario is just as complicated as justifying any vacation expense. What we feel justified in spending on transportation goes well beyond car payments, fuel, etc. In this scenario, there are several people who would be paying $2,000 a year for fuel to start. Maintenance I think we all agree would push the balance towards EVs. So how we create the balance sheet really has a lot to consider. In my EV evangelical pursuits, I have found two things to be VERY true.

1) the amount of the car payment is the most important factor for the majority (majority should be emphasized)

2) fuel costs, despite its size is a much lesser concern and also the least likely known fact. For ones who have gas credit cards (remember them? they used to be popular but no so much anymore) they know what they pay on fuel but for everyone else? they only seem to know how much of a discount per gallon they got on their last fillup from their Safeway purchase but can't remember what the actual cost of the fill up was.

Finally; you are leasing? I find it hard to believe anyone would buy out their lease when current lease deals are as good as they are now. you get better HVAC, faster charging, newer better chemistry in the battery, more range (slightly) and a more recent MY for in most cases about half of what you paid for the first one (unless you were lucky enough to catch the 2012 fire sale)

 

[mwalsh]

I don't believe that telling them they can get a new battery for "only 6 grand" is going to change that many minds in that regard...

It would me, assuming my normal income circumstances. It's actually quite a bit more painful waiting for enough degradation to occur until I'm in warranty territory (black-listing notwithstanding). If I was earning as I have historically, AND my original pack would have taken me as far as I had expected it to (5 years instead of 3), I would have already signed up to purchase a new pack.

However, since my original pack didn't last as expected, I am going to wait out the loss of bar 9 and assume Nissan will honor the warranty, despite B0133. Then I'll take a Lizard under warranty; assume/expect it will deliver 5 years without much in the way of compromise (as originally envisaged); and then purchase a new pack to keep my range within expected parameters. Although by then I'd have been with the car for 9 years, so it's highly likely I'll be more than ready for something new.