Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

[Valdemar]

Some of the blogs and news outlets 'explain this' by saying the 30kWh battery does fewer cycles for the same distance driven.

Given I'm at almost double the miles and still at 9 bars as compared to some people in the same climate who are already burning through their 2nd pack I have my doubts that the reduced cycling of the pack is the primary reason for longer warranty.

 

[TimLee]

... I can at least vouch for the NC chademos all working as I used one in Hickory, one in Asheville, and one in Waynesville this year.

The key is that the Hickory unit was at a Nissan dealer and the other two were managed by Greenlots.

All the ones that don't work in TN that I know of are managed by Blink.

Most DCQC work for about a year before they need repair, although the Blink units had early failure problems that were eventually repaired.

NC units are fairly new which is why they were working.

Once the units fail most of the owners put up very modest $ initially with no plan for maintenance and no business model to fund it.

So when they fail Murphy Express and Cracker Barrel are not willing to pay for repair. Surprising that Sears is supposedly having their Blink unit repaired.

Nissan dealers are outraged by the defective Nissan branded DCQC units.
They self destruct due to filter plugging.
Nissan paid for the ~$12,000 units.
But there was no training that they require frequent filter cleaning or they self destruct and need $5,000 repair.
Another Nissan failure funding dealer DCQC units with defective equipment that so far they have not delivered a fix.
About 100 Nissan dealer DCQC are currently broken and unless Nissan comes up with something from the manufacturer or steps up to fund repair most will stay broken.

 

[JPWhite]

But there was no training that they require frequent filter cleaning or they self destruct and need $5,000 repair.

It maybe true no training was given, I'm not sure it was required either. Monthly filter maintenance/inspection isn't exactly difficult, but it is important. I know form conversations I've had with folks at corporate the maintenance procedures were communicated to the station hosts, but in many cases the message didn't get to the people who needed to know.

In the case of a 3rd party host, the procedures went to someone like a building and maintenance manager, possibly at a corporate office and often didn't filter down (pun intended) to the folks doing the actual maintenance at each site. In the case of the dealers, the service manger may have been aware, but the message may have remained in their inbox.

Should Nissan HQ have anticipated this potential communication gap and made sure it was handled? Quite possibly, its all part of the learning experience with this new technology. The ultimate responsibility to do maintenance does rest with the host, just like you and I are responsible for making sure our cars are maintained and its our responsibility to make ourselves familiar with the service intervals and schedule those events.

 

[TimLee]

... The ultimate responsibility to do maintenance does rest with the host, just like you and I are responsible for making sure our cars are maintained and its our responsibility to make ourselves familiar with the service intervals and schedule those events.

I certainly agree with all of what you said JP.
I think the big disconnect was that people saw EV charging devices as a zero maintenance type product.
Similar to a plug in coffee maker or toaster.
And some of the high quality L2 EVSE have been like that.
The L2 at Nissan dealers to the best of my knowledge have been trouble free.
Likely would operate five to ten years with no maintenance, and when they fail at the low cost of such EVSE now they are a discard and replace device.
But Blink L2 have not been like that

DCQC has been an entirely different commodity.
And I do agree with the irritated dealers that a device like this should not just proceed to fail through overheating without protecting itself before allowing damage.

Although your reference to vehicle maintenance is relevant.
Although some ICE vehicles do monitor engine use and advise when the oil should be changed, most don't.
If you don't follow the service recommendations, they also proceed to operate until failure requiring expensive repairs.

 

[JPWhite]

I think the big disconnect was that people saw EV charging devices as a zero maintenance type product.
Similar to a plug in coffee maker or toaster.
And some of the high quality L2 EVSE have been like that.

Agreed the DCFC units have been problematic. Eaton, Sumitomo, Blink you name it they are all plagued with maintenance headaches and costs.

I wonder when we will get a reliable unit in the ground that doesn't need babying and expensive repairs.

The local eVgo rep has hopes for a new brand unit they have their hands on. He just can't find a host to take one in Nashville.

 

[kieodadie]

I got my car back last Saturday. It is great to have 12 bars again.

 

[hillzofvalp]

Fffffff you...

 

[hillzofvalp]

There has to be a larger pack offering for the older cars... If not, someone will make an aftermarket system. Long live the leaf 1.0

On the bright side, maybe I should just store my leaf with new battery forever.. So in 50 years I can be the only one with a working leaf 1.0 and sell it for $$

 

[gemrough]

Anyone know what fails in the DCQC stations? If the heat is killing them I would bet it is a capacitor issue. The manufacturer probably used cheap Chinese parts and they are failing due to the heat. $5,000 to repair..... I bet most of that is labor.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Anyone know what fails in the DCQC stations? If the heat is killing them I would bet it is a capacitor issue. The manufacturer probably used cheap Chinese parts and they are failing due to the heat. $5,000 to repair..... I bet most of that is labor.

One common problem reported was heat due to blocked cooling (dirty air filters). That was also a problem with early DCFC stations installed at high altitude: thin air = reduced cooling effectiveness = overheating = shutdown.

Whether that's still the case, I couldn't say; I've never actually seen a Chademo DCFC station.

 

[gemrough]

Overheating may be the cause of failure but what part (s) failed is what I would like to know.

Guess I'll see if I can find some schmatics...

 

[TimLee]

I was told that the 50 kW Eaton DCQC at Murphy Express that needs $3,000 repair is a bad control board.

I don't have any details on what failed in the Nissan DCQC that needs $5,000 repair.

Yes, the labor is expensive.
Professional repair company has lots of overhead costs of vehicles, tools, training, etc.
So "labor" may be $200 per hour, or $1,000 to $1,500 per day.

But with Eaton repair cost of $3,000 and Nissan of $5,000, the majority of the cost is parts.

The Nissan units supposedly only cost $12,000, so they must be replacing a lot of parts.

 

[gemrough]

I was told that the 50 kW Eaton DCQC at Murphy Express that needs $3,000 repair is a bad control board.

I don't have any details on what failed in the Nissan DCQC that needs $5,000 repair.

Yes, the labor is expensive.
Professional repair company has lots of overhead costs of vehicles, tools, training, etc.
So "labor" may be $200 per hour, or $1,000 to $1,500 per day.

But with Eaton repair cost of $3,000 and Nissan of $5,000, the majority of the cost is parts.

The Nissan units supposedly only cost $12,000, so they must be replacing a lot of parts.

The control board... that is exactly what I thought! I would be willing to bet the problem is capacitor related. The reason I say this is I repair electronics and have changed out over 100,000 capacitors a year for the past several years. The problem is there is only a few capacitor manufacturers that have a product that is actually worth a crap IMHO. The cost difference between the cheap parts and the best on the market can be 5x as much... sounds like a lot but on most electronics the difference would be a few dollars at most. For example the main product I repair has 24 caps on the board and the parts cost me about $2.50... I do buy in bulk and get a better price than buying just enough to fix 1 board (which would cost about $9). Now I am sure the assembly plant in china that populated the boards gets their parts a lot cheaper than I can and the difference would be greater. I guesstimate them to have paid about $.31 for the caps. Even if they had paid what I paid for the parts (made in Japan vs China), the difference would only have been around $2 at most. Now given that they had 50,000 made makes the difference $100K! Sure save $100K (on about $20M of equipment) well that decision has cost them over $3M to date on just the repair side. Factor in all associated cost and it puts the figure over $11M. Yea that $100K don't look so good now does it!!

Well with all that being said, I bet the true cost to repair would be less than $50 in parts... but instead of fixing the control board they are replacing it. Which will fail again if they are using the same crap as before even with filter cleaning. The crap capacitors China is making fails quickly even under ideal conditions.

I wish I lived near one that was down, I would offer to try and repair it for free just to see if that is the problem.

 

[linkim]

Anyone know what fails in the DCQC stations? If the heat is killing them I would bet it is a capacitor issue. The manufacturer probably used cheap Chinese parts and they are failing due to the heat. $5,000 to repair..... I bet most of that is labor.

One common problem reported was heat due to blocked cooling (dirty air filters). That was also a problem with early DCFC stations installed at high altitude: thin air = reduced cooling effectiveness = overheating = shutdown.

Whether that's still the case, I couldn't say; I've never actually seen a Chademo DCFC station.

I was planning to do a QC at an eVgo DCC in Daly City CA. When I got there a technician was cleaning the filter. He said they do this periodically so I assume it can get clogged up and affect performance or shut down the unit. His company had a contract with eVgo to maintain the chargers in the SF Bay Area.

 

[keydiver]

The crap capacitors China is making fails quickly even under ideal conditions.

Its funny you say that. I just installed a Chinese cap today in a piece of equipment I was repairing, and it blew its guts out the second I powered up, as if the polarity was reversed. I checked, and double-checked, the polarity was correct. I installed another, identical Chinese cap and the unit ran fine. (Of course, I connected a power supply to the new cap first before installing it, just in case. I didn't need a second loud pop in one day)

 

[TomT]

Like most motherboard makers these days, I only use Japanese made Solid capacitors. They'll last pretty much forever, unlike electrolytics.
And, yes, they are considerably more expensive but nothing in the overall scheme of things...

Its funny you say that. I just installed a Chinese cap today in a piece of equipment I was repairing, and it blew its guts out the second I powered up, as if the polarity was reversed.

 

[cwerdna]

I was planning to do a QC at an eVgo DCC in Daly City CA. When I got there a technician was cleaning the filter. He said they do this periodically so I assume it can get clogged up and affect performance or shut down the unit. His company had a contract with eVgo to maintain the chargers in the SF Bay Area.

Yes, the air filters on the Nissan-branded DC FCs need to be cleaned regularly, otherwise they for sure will hit temperature errors, even when it's not hot out. Guide at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=383952#p383952.

IIRC (memory foggy), it seems like some might've received a firmware update where the fans don't run at full blast when the DC FC is idle, so that the filters won't clog as quickly. They used to run full blast all the time... now I don't even have a car w/CHAdeMO inlet anymore, so it's all moot for me.

BTW, can we move the DC FC discussion to another thread? It seems unrelated to the OP.

 

[fotajoye]

Nissan is a legacy car company whose policies are based on years of selling ICEVs through dealerships. They have yet to realize the Leaf is a different kind of animal, i.e., it's a computer with four wheels; a long lasting chassis with little maintenance required; it's all the things we like about EVs and dislike about ICEVs.

Tesla gets it; and now even BMW gets it. After stating their policy of not offering upgraded i3 batteries over time, BMW recently reversed that policy and released their plans for standardizing the format and configuration of their batteries and will provide for backwards compatibility on their battery packs across their entire line of EVs. A policy that Nissan should consider adopting going forward. But alas, I think it is too late as they have already damaged themselves and their customers irreparably. Look at the sinking prices of the first generation Leafs that now flood the market and how they stuck their customers with EVs that have range limitations with no hope for increasing range at all.

But wait, there's hope. I believe there is a huge market out there for an aftermarket battery overhaul company who can solve this range limitation dilemma and offer long range replacement Leaf batteries. Tesla could pull it off and LG CHEM as well. If this happened, the effect would be startling. Used first generation Leafs could very well turn into the best buy on the Planet.

 

[GRA]

Nissan is a legacy car company whose policies are based on years of selling ICEVs through dealerships. They have yet to realize the Leaf is a different kind of animal, i.e., it's a computer with four wheels; a long lasting chassis with little maintenance required; it's all the things we like about EVs and dislike about ICEVs.

Tesla gets it; and now even BMW gets it. After stating their policy of not offering upgraded i3 batteries over time, BMW recently reversed that policy and released their plans for standardizing the format and configuration of their batteries and will provide for backwards compatibility on their battery packs across their entire line of EVs. A policy that Nissan should consider adopting going forward. But alas, I think it is too late as they have already damaged themselves and their customers irreparably. Look at the sinking prices of the first generation Leafs that now flood the market and how they stuck their customers with EVs that have range limitations with no hope for increasing range at all.

But wait, there's hope. I believe there is a huge market out there for an aftermarket battery overhaul company who can solve this range limitation dilemma and offer long range replacement Leaf batteries. Tesla could pull it off and LG CHEM as well. If this happened, the effect would be startling. Used first generation Leafs could very well turn into the best buy on the Planet.

BMW plans as above, via ievs:

BMW Head Of Development: Electric Car Replacement Batteries / Upgrades Are Part Of Our Plan

http://insideevs.com/bmw-head-development/

“We have defined a certain cell standard millimetre height so that we can build new batteries in 50 years that have the same cell standard, even if the chemistry and energy density will be very different. This means that, when your car fails after 15 years and you go to a BMW shop to have a new battery fitted, you can do so. . . .”

The original article on which the ievs article is based is here: http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/in-50-years-most-of-us-will-drive-electric-vehicles-says-bmw-head-of-development-2015-10-30

 

[fotajoye]

Thanks for including the references; btw, I'm in the Sierra Foothills and am dependent on my EV for travel between towns; else, I too would follow your transportation plan; bikes are wonderful devices that are underutilized in our country.