While chademo is looking bleak long term, it's still growing almost as fast as ccs right now

[cwerdna]

Yes. Unfortunately, EA wasn't forced to be standards neutral on their deployments.

I'm not sure what that means. EA wrote the rules, which included only supporting 'open standard' plugs. The token CHAdeMO was included to rationalize keeping Tesla out.

Your advocacy for even number of CHAdeMO and CCS plugs is irrational, albeit expected on a LEAF user group.

Indeed, it seems VW/EA was able to trick or convince regulators to allow them to not be standards neutral as part of their settlement. Remember, EA was part of VW's dieselgate settlement where they got to choose how to spend $2 billion of their/our money.

I'm not the only person complaining about this. http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=84&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=5589&cHash=fff41d37326d49155d8139c7a2fbfe86 wrote about it too.

Their actions have basically have had the effect of doing what VW AG seems to have wanted all along, to slow down Nissan and to push people towards a standard that now finally has V2H/V2G capability vs. one that's had it since 2012 (https://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/05/leafvsh-20120530.html) if not earlier.

Obviously, they didn't care about that nor did they try to equally improve CHAdeMO (e.g. in terms of charging speeds, features, higher voltages, etc.)

If I finally get a buyback # from GM for Bolt and it's decent, even I don't want to buy a Leaf (as a temp EV) partly because it has CHAdeMO. I know that if I go long distances, I can't really depend on EA w/its single CHAdeMO plug at each site and will have to hope that other networks have a decent # of CHAdeMO plugs as backup.

I might lease/takeover a lease of a Leaf though w/the intent to turn it in at the end.

 

[SageBrush]

I personally benefit from CHAdeMO inclusion but I am the first to admit that CHAdeMO is dead, and it is a waste of money and resources to continue to support it. The EA settlement's true violation of reasonable behavior was in not including Tesla plugs commensurate with their market presence. The devotion to 'open standards' was always a red herring, promoted by a bunch of lemmings typing on proprietary, anti-competitive, Microsoft run computers. I'd appreciate the irony if so much was not at stake.

You complain that only one CHAdeMO plug is installed per location, when it should be zero. It is true that other networks that rely on Gov subsidy have been including CHAdeMO plugs at a higher CHAdeMO:CCS ratio. Which just goes to show that the only thing dumber than regulators/courts are Gov bureaucrats handed a bucket of money. Then stupidity and corruption come out to play.

We will see this in spades with the Biden money: installers will charge outrageous amounts for crappy installations that don't work, break soon after they are built, and are not maintained.

 

[WetEV]

The EA settlement's true violation of reasonable behavior was in not including Tesla plugs commensurate with their market presence. The devotion to 'open standards' was always a red herring, promoted by a bunch of lemmings typing on proprietary, anti-competitive, Microsoft run computers. I'd appreciate the irony if so much was not at stake.

That's amusing. Fedora usually.

So why do you want Tesla monopoly? With closed proprietary, anti-competitive charging network that you want EA to be forced to support?

 

[jlv]

Their actions have basically have had the effect of doing what VW AG seems to have wanted all along, to slow down Nissan

Sadly, Nissan has been doing fine slowing themselves down without any assistance.

 

[SageBrush]

So why do you want Tesla monopoly?

I want Gov money to proportionally support the plugs that the public wants. That is about 60% Tesla and 40% CCS. I exclude CHAdeMO as a rounding error. The NIssan owners here that whine about lack of CHAdeMO support are voicing self-interest but are forgetting that the consent decree was established to negate the pollution that VW caused. That means policy that maximizes EV adoption, which means supporting the market where it wants to go.

Calling Tesla a 'monopoly' is FUD of the worse kind. There are dozens of EV manufacturers. Let them compete, and support the market winners.

 

[oxothuk]

So why do you want Tesla monopoly?

I want Gov money to proportionally support the plugs that the public wants. That is about 60% Tesla and 40% CCS. I exclude CHAdeMO as a rounding error. The NIssan owners here that whine about lack of CHAdeMO support are voicing self-interest but are forgetting that the consent decree was established to negate the pollution that VW caused. That means policy that maximizes EV adoption, which means supporting the market where it wants to go.

Calling Tesla a 'monopoly' is FUD of the worse kind. There are dozens of EV manufacturers. Let them compete, and support the market winners.

I've not seen any discussion of how much extra cost is required to support both CCS and Chademo. Doesn't seem like much relative to the overall cost of installing a charge station.

 

[SageBrush]

Doesn't seem like much

Based on what ?
And don't forget the service contract

 

[oxothuk]

Doesn't seem like much

Based on what ?
And don't forget the service contract

I'm looking for someone who knows to say what the extra cost really is - 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%?

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Chademo support has never been better than today, and with the new state programs, and over the next 2 years get better before decline.

 

[gcrouse]

So why do you want Tesla monopoly?

I want Gov money to proportionally support the plugs that the public wants. That is about 60% Tesla and 40% CCS. I exclude CHAdeMO as a rounding error. The NIssan owners here that whine about lack of CHAdeMO support are voicing self-interest but are forgetting that the consent decree was established to negate the pollution that VW caused. That means policy that maximizes EV adoption, which means supporting the market where it wants to go.

Calling Tesla a 'monopoly' is FUD of the worse kind. There are dozens of EV manufacturers. Let them compete, and support the market winners.

I think your rant is a little misguided.

1. The public doesn't want 60% Tesla plugs and 40% CCS. The public doesn't care what standard is installed, outside of people who already own or actively want to own a certain EV. With EV sales at less than 3% of all auto sales, people don't care and largely couldn't tell the difference between the standards if asked - the only thing the public cares about that they have some type of charging stations available if they buy an EV.

2. You're right that the policy is meant to maximize EV adoption, but ignoring the fact that when the VW case was settled in 2016 - Tesla had already began building out a network of chargers. Quick Charging wasn't a barrier to adoption for Tesla EVs - then or now due to that fact.

3. Only 4.2% of auto sales are fully online (to include Tesla). The bulk of new EV sales as they get adopted are going to be through dealerships in people's area, because that's where the public buys cars. If we are talking about where the market is going - as other automakers with a traditional distribution model ramp up production, the market will follow which is why

Tesla has begun losing market share (although still the dominant force in the EV market). Since every automaker in the US besides Tesla is adopting the CCS standard, at best if we are basing it solely on market futures it would be 85% CCS and 15% Tesla since that represents the total production and sales capability of automakers in the US.

3. Of course people on a Leaf forum are going to have a self interest in Chademo stations being added. Not all of us can afford to have multiple cars, let alone luxury EVs. You might as well chastise people for complaining about battery degradation and replacements while you're at it.

 

[cwerdna]

gcrouse: Since you're new here, Sage for some reason hates Nissan and almost anything to do w/them. So, his asking that there be 0 CHAdeMO plugs at each site is no surprise.

Calling Tesla a 'monopoly' is FUD of the worse kind. There are dozens of EV manufacturers. Let them compete, and support the market winners.

Not FUD at all considering their US EV share.

Dozens of EV manufacturers? Currently selling or leasing highway legal consumer BEVs in the US? Dozen I could see but dozens? Nope... And, some of them are only selling/leasing in CARB states or those +/- a few others aka compliance cars. HyunKia for the US market is still in that mode. And, some besides did sell/lease BEVs in the US but no longer have any here (e.g. FCA now Stellantis, Honda, Toyota). FCA/Stellantis and Toyota have never shipped any DC FC capable BEVs in the US yet.

And, then you have VW AG's 3 brands w/BEVs in the US: VW, Audi and Porsche. Does that count as 1 or 3?

Although Leaf sales in the US have cratered, until the Model 3 and later the Y passed them, they were the best selling BEV in the US by cumulative sales. So, there's still the existing base + trickle of new sales/leases + other users (e.g. gen 1 Soul EV, Outlander PHEVs and Tesla drivers w/CHAdeMO adapters). And, there's what EVgo is doing: installing modified CHAdeMO to Tesla adapters on some of their dual standard DC FCs.

It's also not like many CCS-equipped BEVs have huge US sales numbers either. IIRC, in the US, for 2021, Bolt was trailing only Model 3 and Y until it hit stop sale.

And yes, as I've mentioned numerous times, I've personally witnessed Tesla drivers use the CHAdeMO adapter here in Silicon Valley despite there being PLENTY of Supercharger infrastructure, sometimes less than 2-3 miles away.

Randy Spencer and RayK (https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chademo-charging-the-model-3.160882/page-14#post-5892601) use their CHAdeMO adapter, for instance. We're all in the Bay Area w/RayK likely pretty near me. I've not met then in person yet, AFAIK.

 

[SageBrush]

Not FUD at all considering their US EV share.

Then you don't understand the meaning of monopoly. Try Google

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1134120_tesla-is-losing-us-ev-market-share-but-gaining-luxury-share-now-outselling-mercedes-benz

 

[cwerdna]

LOL. Their share is an order of magnitude higher than anyone else's. Chevrolet was #2 on that chart with 9.6% yet they hit a stop sale and are still in that mode, leaving them unable to sell nor lease any new Bolt EVs or EUVs since ~Aug 20, 2021 (https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2021/aug/0820-bolt.html). And, production has been halted until at least end of Jan 2022 (https://insideevs.com/news/552069/chevrolet-bolt-production-halt-january28/). Chevy has no other BEVs.

Besides their dominant US share, I'd argue that Tesla actually meets some of the criteria that https://www.investopedia.com/insights/history-of-us-monopolies/ outlines.

 

[SageBrush]

People have lots of choices, and they choose Tesla about 6:4 to 7:3

That is not a monopoly, it is a superior company.

Google search awaits you.

 

[gcrouse]

People have lots of choices, and they choose Tesla about 6:4 to 7:3

That is not a monopoly, it is a superior company.

Google search awaits you.

Tesla is only ahead in battery and drivetrain tech currently. Build quality is still very hit and miss with Tesla. In a sense, they have a similar lead like Nissan did that's there's to blow. Their most hyped feature - Full Self Driving isn't substantially different than other SAE Level 2 systems and Mercedes is the first to hit SAE3 in any capacity.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/cars/2021/04/who-will-win-the-self-driving-race-here-are-8-possibilities/%3famp=1

Back to the original point of Chademo connectors - i think they should continue to be added to charging infrastructure in proportional numbers in areas without them until Chademo vehicles aren't sold anymore. In 10 years time we could potentially have a fledgling battery replacement market giving a lot of old Chademo vehicles new life for extended periods of time. As a whole - the big ticket items that usually put a car out of commission tend to last longer on an EV. Dropping and replacing a battery isn't much different than dropping and replacing a transmission in terms of labor. The Models S with almost 500,000 miles on it that was used as a ride share car shows a rethinking of the automobile as disposable after 15-20 years due to parts failure is a possibility.

 

[cwerdna]

Back to the original point of Chademo connectors - i think they should continue to be added to charging infrastructure in proportional numbers in areas without them until Chademo vehicles aren't sold anymore. In 10 years time we could potentially have a fledgling battery replacement market giving a lot of old Chademo vehicles new life for extended periods of time. As a whole - the big ticket items that usually put a car out of commission tend to last longer on an EV. Dropping and replacing a battery isn't much different than dropping and replacing a transmission in terms of labor. The Models S with almost 500,000 miles on it that was used as a ride share car shows a rethinking of the automobile as disposable after 15-20 years due to parts failure is a possibility.

Unfortunately (?), the sale of new CHAdeMO vehicles in the US is honestly a trickle at this point w/Leaf and Outlander PHEV now. For whatever reason, Tesla quietly removed the CHAdeMO adapter from their US store awhile ago and it's unknown if it'll return. Some used CHAdeMO adapters are changing hands but that's not adding to the population.

If Leaf goes away or the next gen/its replacement comes to the US, it's almost certain it will be CCS here just like Ariya will be CCS in the US and Europe.

As for extending life, the problem is that replacement battery packs for Leafs are WAY expensive vs. the value of the vehicle. Replacement packs for out of warranty Model S are also very high in price vs. the value of the vehicle to the point where their drivers balk. Ditto for drive units once past warranty + the numerous other not so cheap bits on S and X that fail (e.g. door handles, MCU, half shafts, suspension bits, subframe, etc.)

 

[SageBrush]

For whatever reason, Tesla quietly removed the CHAdeMO adapter from their US store awhile ago and it's unknown if it'll return.

The reason is a CCS adapter. That will be the obvious choice for any Tesla made from ~ 2020 that has the needed electronics. I'm not sure what owners of older Teslas will be offered or decide, but they have had years already to buy the CHAdeMO adapter if wanted so future demand is somewhere between nil and none. If demand exists at all, the secondary market will fill it.

There is a CHAdeMO adapter at my home that I and two others bought as a group. None of us has ever used it. I'll try to sell it and buy a CCS or three for us instead.

 

[cwerdna]

For whatever reason, Tesla quietly removed the CHAdeMO adapter from their US store awhile ago and it's unknown if it'll return.

The reason is a CCS adapter. That will be the obvious choice for any Tesla made from ~ 2020 that has the needed electronics. I'm not sure what owners of older Teslas will be offered or decide, but they have had years already to buy the CHAdeMO adapter if wanted so future demand is somewhere between nil and none. If demand exists at all, the secondary market will fill it.

That doesn't mean they need to quietly pull the CHAdeMO adapter before they offer the CCS1 adapter in the US.

The demand isn't nil. Just Google for site:teslamotorsclub.com wtb chademo adapter.

 

[SageBrush]

The reason is a CCS adapter. That will be the obvious choice for any Tesla made from ~ 2020 that has the needed electronics. I'm not sure what owners of older Teslas will be offered or decide, but they have had years already to buy the CHAdeMO adapter if wanted so future demand is somewhere between nil and none. If demand exists at all, the secondary market will fill it.

That doesn't mean they need to quietly pull the CHAdeMO adapter before they offer the CCS1 adapter in the US.

The demand isn't nil. Just Google for site:teslamotorsclub.com wtb chademo adapter.

There is no reason to think it was pulled. I'd say discontinued when the stock ran out. It had been true for years already that most of the time the CHAdeMO adapter was out of stock, and replenishment was a small volume. It all speaks to trivial demand

 

[gcrouse]

Back to the original point of Chademo connectors - i think they should continue to be added to charging infrastructure in proportional numbers in areas without them until Chademo vehicles aren't sold anymore. In 10 years time we could potentially have a fledgling battery replacement market giving a lot of old Chademo vehicles new life for extended periods of time. As a whole - the big ticket items that usually put a car out of commission tend to last longer on an EV. Dropping and replacing a battery isn't much different than dropping and replacing a transmission in terms of labor. The Models S with almost 500,000 miles on it that was used as a ride share car shows a rethinking of the automobile as disposable after 15-20 years due to parts failure is a possibility.

Unfortunately (?), the sale of new CHAdeMO vehicles in the US is honestly a trickle at this point w/Leaf and Outlander PHEV now. For whatever reason, Tesla quietly removed the CHAdeMO adapter from their US store awhile ago and it's unknown if it'll return. Some used CHAdeMO adapters are changing hands but that's not adding to the population.

If Leaf goes away or the next gen/its replacement comes to the US, it's almost certain it will be CCS here just like Ariya will be CCS in the US and Europe.

As for extending life, the problem is that replacement battery packs for Leafs are WAY expensive vs. the value of the vehicle. Replacement packs for out of warranty Model S are also very high in price vs. the value of the vehicle to the point where their drivers balk. Ditto for drive units once past warranty + the numerous other not so cheap bits on S and X that fail (e.g. door handles, MCU, half shafts, suspension bits, subframe, etc.)

Without a doubt, it's an idealistic vision and a probable long shot especially in today's replace vs. repair consumer culture, but there's factors that work in favor of it.

Battery prices, specifically through Nissan, relative to the Leaf are high now, but battery costs per kWh have been trending considerably downward. Third party battery replacement now is a niche market since there's not a substantial amount of demand - but in time, let's say 40% BEV market share I think companies with a business model like Fenix are more likely to have a meaningful business model. (Especially once they crack the recycling piece for old packs.)

In other applications, electric motors can be (and industrially often are) reconditioned several times when staying in service.

It wouldn't be impossible but it would require a big shift in consumer and manufacturing mindsets.

Granted, now that i think about it - I'm curious what the service life on those charge station cables and components will be or how long they'll even stay in place as is. I know Ford and Perdue have some prototypes for liquid cooled charging cables as well as other research into 10 minute charge solid state batteries. I think it will be fun to watch as things progress. Heck, even if all Chademo based vehicles became obsolete in 10 years time - it wouldn't be some herculean task to replace cabling/connectors to new standards. I'd estimate the average cable running to a station is probably $1500 or so.