Who is driving 2013 Leaf? EPA range is 75 miles!!!

[Den]

Did you happen to look at the energy display to see how much energy the heater was using? Hoping someone out there with a '13 will chime in on how efficient the new heater really is.

Would be really interesting information...

 

[edatoakrun]

Thanks. IMO, EPA's 75 mile range is very conservative.

I expect it is a very accurate number for the test parameters, and a useful number for the average range of the "80% and "100%" charge levels, as intended.

You are referring to 75 miles of range from "100%"charge as conservative, right?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thanks. IMO, EPA's 75 mile range is very conservative.

Since it's an average of two values, it not representative of the EPA range at neither 80% nor a 100% charge. It's the same old story; and hunch back and a pro-basketball player walk in a room, and their average height is now 5'9".... it doesn't tell us much if all we knew was that their average height is 5'9".

The EPA range in 5 cycle testing is 84 miles at 100% charge, which also doesn't tell us much if you're driving down the highway at 75mph (where you will only get about 63 miles of range). Nor does it address the other significant issues with range on a battery powered car; hills, elevation change, cabin climate control consumption, cold on the battery and degradation over time.

 

[LEAFfan]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

 

[MarvGordon]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

Note to self...drive in the right lane!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

Note to self...drive in the right lane!

better than walking on the shoulder!

 

[davewill]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

I'll believe it when I see it from someone else. You've been posting economy figures no one else can reproduce for as long as you've been on the board.

 

[LEAFfan]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

I'll believe it when I see it from someone else. You've been posting economy figures no one else can reproduce for as long as you've been on the board.

I'm not the only one that has observed higher m/kW h at lower speeds on the freeways. Phatcat also posted that he obtained 5.8m/kW h at 52 or 53mph actual, 55mph on speedo.

 

[TonyWilliams]

But the BIG difference that we are seeing now is at lower speeds (53-58mph actual), we can drive 100 miles with a 2013. Remember, a 4.9m/kW h will do it.

I'll believe it when I see it from someone else. You've been posting economy figures no one else can reproduce for as long as you've been on the board.

I'm not the only one that has observed higher m/kW h at lower speeds on the freeways. Phatcat also posted that he obtained 5.8m/kW h at 52 or 53mph actual, 55mph on speedo.

Well, as we saw in the Phoenix range test, those dash numbers can be significantly off (greater than 10%).

Note the discrepancies in the following post from pchilds:


Start GIDs 254,
LBW at 75.4 miles,
VLBW at 98.8 miles,
End Gids 23,
231 X .075 = 17.325 kWh,
100.1 / 17.325 = 5.778 Mi/kWh.
Displayed Mi/kWh 6.2
100.1 / 6.200 Mi/kWh = 16.145 kWh

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I see the same optimistic numbers especially when the effi iency is very high at theend.

Anyone bother figure his numbers between LBW and VLB?

 

[Phatcat73]

Thanks. IMO, EPA's 75 mile range is very conservative.

I expect it is a very accurate number for the test parameters, and a useful number for the average range of the "80% and "100%" charge levels, as intended.

You are referring to 75 miles of range from "100%"charge as conservative, right?

Yes, I was basing off 100%. I forgot about the 80/100% avg. Does anyone have the detailed math how the EPA grades electric range? Do they take into account exterior temperatures? Heater use?

In any case, based on some algebra my commute this morning was as follows:

You lose 82% for every 58.5 miles. That is a loss of approximately 1.4% per every mile.
So to lose 100% of the battery you would calculate 100% divided by 1.4% per mile. That is approximately 71.4 miles.

That's just 1 data point, however the SOC seems to be more accurate than the GOM.

If the EPA range for a 100% charge is 84 miles, I still didn't do too bad considering:
1) Below freezing temps at 23 deg F
2) 97% Highway Commute
3) 65 MPH Cruise Setting
4) Heat On
5) 15mph head wind

On Monday I did a more conservative 54 mile drive
1) 44 deg F
2) 80% highway
3) 55 MPH Cruise Setting
4) Heat off

and that drive consumed only 51%

Now imagine 70 deg weather and more city driving. 120 mile range anyone?

Time will tell....

 

[TonyWilliams]

Does anyone have the detailed math how the EPA grades electric range? Do they take into account exterior temperatures? Heater use?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

       EPA 5 cycle test for fossil fuel burning cars (electrics are different)

       City 	Highway 	High Speed 	AC 	Cold Temp

Top Speed 	56 mph 	60 mph 	80 mph 	54.8 mph 	56 mph
Average Speed 	21.2 mph 	48.3 mph 	48.4 mph 	21.2 mph 	21.2 mph
Max. Acceleration 	3.3 mph/sec 	3.2 mph/sec 	8.46 mph/sec 	5.1 mph/sec 	3.3 mph/sec
Simulated Distance 	11 mi. 	10.3 mi. 	8 mi. 	3.6 mi. 	11 mi.
Time 	31.2 min. 	12.75 min. 	9.9 min. 	9.9 min. 	31.2 min.
Stops 	23 	None 	4 	5 	23
Idling time 	18% of time 	None 	7% of time 	19% of time 	18% of time
Engine Startup* 	Cold 	Warm 	Warm 	Warm 	Cold
Lab temperature 	68–86ºF 	95ºF 	20ºF
Vehicle air conditioning 	Off 	Off 	Off 	On 	Off

Electric Vehicle Test Procedure

- In general, EPA testing follows SAE Recommended Practice J1634 "Electric Vehicle Energy Consumption and Range Test Procedure," which (as the title implies) is basically a dynamometer test procedure used to measure the energy consumption and driving range of
an electric vehicle.

Electric Vehicle - City Test Procedure Summary -

Following SAE J1634 Recommended Practice, the battery is fully charged, the vehicle is parked over night, and then the following day the vehicle driven over successive city cycles until the battery becomes discharged (and the vehicle can no longer follow the
city driving cycle).

After running the successive city cycles, the battery is recharged from a normal AC source and the energy consumption of the vehicle is determined (in kW-hr/mile or kW-hr/100 miles) by dividing the kilowatt-hours of energy to recharge the battery by the miles traveled by the vehicle.

To calculate the energy consumption in units of mpge (miles/gallon equivalent) we use a conversion factor of 33.7 kilowatt-hours of electricity per gallon of gasoline (which is basically a measure of the energy in gasoline (in BTUs) converted to electricity). The city driving range is determined from the number of miles driven over the city cycle until the vehicle can no longer keep up with the driving cycle.

Electric Vehicle – Highway Test Procedure Summary -

The same test SAE J1634 procedure outlined above, is used determine the highway energy consumption and the highway driving range (except the vehicle is operated over successive highway cycles) .

Electric Vehicle - Adjustment Procedure used to Derive City & Highway FE Label (Window Sticker)

Estimates - EPA regulations require the city and highway energy consumption and driving range values listed on the FE Label (window sticker) to be adjusted to more accurately reflect the energy consumption and driving range that customers can expect to achieve in the real world.

For EVs, EPA currently uses the derived ***5-cycle adjustment method described in 40 CFR 600.210-08(a)(2)(i) and (a)(2(ii), capped at a maximum adjustment of 30% (i.e. multiply unadjusted values by 0.7).

***EPA made this 30% adjustment on the 2011 and 2012 LEAF with a 2 cycle test, but does NOT on the 2013 with a 5 cycle test. But, they do average 80% and 100% charge data to arrive at a final 75 mile EPA combined range.

That's just 1 data point, however the SOC seems to be more accurate than the GOM.

Now, there's the understatement of today!

If the EPA range for a 100% charge is 84 miles, I still didn't do too bad

Unless your are doing what the EPA did in their dynomometer testing in all 5 cycles, there's no direct comparison to your drive.

Now imagine 70 deg weather and more city driving. 120 mile range anyone?

Like I always say, easy to say, not so easy to do. Good luck!

 

[LEAFfan]

Thanks. IMO, EPA's 75 mile range is very conservative.

I expect it is a very accurate number for the test parameters, and a useful number for the average range of the "80% and "100%" charge levels, as intended.

You are referring to 75 miles of range from "100%"charge as conservative, right?

Yes, I was basing off 100%. I forgot about the 80/100% avg. Does anyone have the detailed math how the EPA grades electric range? Do they take into account exterior temperatures? Heater use?

In any case, based on some algebra my commute this morning was as follows:

You lose 82% for every 58.5 miles. That is a loss of approximately 1.4% per every mile.
So to lose 100% of the battery you would calculate 100% divided by 1.4% per mile. That is approximately 71.4 miles.

That's just 1 data point, however the SOC seems to be more accurate than the GOM.

If the EPA range for a 100% charge is 84 miles, I still didn't do too bad considering:
1) Below freezing temps at 23 deg F
2) 97% Highway Commute
3) 65 MPH Cruise Setting
4) Heat On
5) 15mph head wind

On Monday I did a more conservative 54 mile drive
1) 44 deg F
2) 80% highway
3) 55 MPH Cruise Setting
4) Heat off

and that drive consumed only 51%

Now imagine 70 deg weather and more city driving. 120 mile range anyone?

Time will tell....

Mark, I guess we are the only two that have observed much higher mileage at lower freeway speeds. I wonder how many more drivers it will take to convince davewill. :mrgreen:

 

[edatoakrun]

[quote...Now imagine 70 deg weather and more city driving. 120 mile range anyone?

Time will tell....

I made my first 100+ mile single-charge trip of the year (101.5 miles, from "100%" to ~VLBW to be exact) tonight in my horribly degraded 2011 LEAF, and that was on a route with close to 6,000 ft of total ascent and descent.

Did you see the suggestion I posted Monday?

Phatcat73 wrote:
Drove home today, same 51 mile commute (11 suburbs + 40 freeway)...
Life is good in the Leaf. My range anxiety is diminishing...

edatoakrun:

And your dreaded range anxiety should be entirely gone, very soon.

Once you learn the maximum range of your '13, and how variables in driving speed, your use of regen, temperature when charging, and temperature when driving, all effect your available miles, there is really no range uncertainty in driving a LEAF to be anxious about.

And if the total range of the '13s is improved as much the EPA range estimates suggest, I expect you should be able to knock off your 102 mile commute regularly in warmer weather, on a single charge, whenever you wish, simply by replacing some of those freeway miles with some driven at lower speeds.

Driving slower will add some time to your commute, so you will, of course, still want to do some interim charging for your regular commute.

But IMO, just the experience of using a light-foot on the accelerator/decelerator pedal as a range extender to make multiple 100+ mile runs, really gives the LEAF driver lot of confidence in, and understanding of, the LEAFs range capabilities

.

If you can find a route to and from work on which you can maintain maintain a low speed over most of the commute, you should be able to drive 100+ miles five days a week. this Summer, if you want to.

You'll probably have to drive a little slower than that to hit 120 miles (however much the 2013 range has been improved) though.

 

[TomT]

I'm sorry but anyone who plans to do this on more than a very occasional basis is a FOOL AND SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT! And I thought it was pretty clear by now that the 2013 does not offer any tangible increase in range.

If you can find a route to and from work on which you can maintain maintain a low speed over most of the commute, you should be able to drive 100+ miles five days a week. this Summer, if you want to. You'll probably have to drive a little slower than that to hit 120 miles (however much the 2013 range has been improved) though.

 

[DaveEV]

I'm sorry but anyone who plans to do this on more than a very occasional basis is a FOOL AND SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT! And I thought it was pretty clear by now that the 2013 does not offer any tangible increase in range at freeway speeds.

Fixed that for you.

I thought ed was very clear that if you are willing and able to drive slow enough, 100 miles / charge is not difficult on any LEAF.

 

[Phatcat73]

Did you happen to look at the energy display to see how much energy the heater was using? Hoping someone out there with a '13 will chime in on how efficient the new heater really is.

Would be really interesting information...

I don't have a 11/12 to compare against but can share my observation.

I test drove a 12 a month prior with a full charge at near freezing temperatures. As soon as I turned on the heat, the range dropped 12 miles.

I've never seen my 2013 drop above 7 miles when turning on the climate.

Based on the car metrics, upon first starting the climate control, it consumes around 3kW before settling in between 1-1.5 to maintain cabin temperature.

Another interesting observation is that it blows hot air fairly quickly after activating the climate control. I would say between 15-30 seconds. I highly recommend the hybrid heater in seasonal climates.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I test drove a 12 a month prior with a full charge at near freezing temperatures. As soon as I turned on the heat, the range dropped 12 miles.

I don't know if anybody has told you this yet, but if you are seriously making comparisons for RANGE based on the numerical value we call the Guess-O-Meter (GOM), let's just say that isn't wise.

The heater will be more efficient in the heat pump equipped car; of that, you can be sure. That doesn't INCREASE range... it merely decreases range less. Again, when I speak of range, I mean how far the car will drive in miles, not what the GOM says.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

30 seconds for heat is a HUGE change

 

[TonyWilliams]

I'm sorry but anyone who plans to do this on more than a very occasional basis is a FOOL AND SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT! And I thought it was pretty clear by now that the 2013 does not offer any tangible increase in range at freeway speeds.

Fixed that for you.

I thought ed was very clear that if you are willing and able to drive slow enough, 100 miles / charge is not difficult on any LEAF.

Dave, thanks for clarifying Tom's post to reflect what we know, but that doesn't change the fact that buying a LEAF for a 100-120 commute (if that's the premise here, I'm not really sure) is beyond nutty. I don't care if it's on back roads or not.

That's a completely different metric than "can 100 miles be done". Sure, I could take virtually any LEAF (even one degraded 30%) and drive 100 miles on flat Florida roads during warm days with no air conditioning. No, I couldn't legally or safely drive on any highway or freeway since my speed would be ridiculously slow (like 10-25mph).

Anyway, it sounds like the new 2013 owner is happy with his purchase, and I hope it continues to exceed his expectations.