Who is driving 2013 Leaf? EPA range is 75 miles!!!

[edatoakrun]

...I don't have a 11/12 to compare against but can share my observation...

Mark,

I'd suggest again that you, and all other LEAFers whose cars have the capability, and the '13ers in particular, get in the habit of using CarWings to collect and analyze data on your LEAFs energy use, ASAP.

After a few weeks of careful observations of your LEAFs energy use and range in varying driving conditions, any '13 LEAFer should know a lot more than any of the 2011-12 LEAFer old farts posting here, about the 13's actual range capabilities.

Since most of the ex-LEAFers and many of the active 2011-12 LEAFers posting on MNL appear to have maintained a vow of celibacy re CarWings data, their comments on 2011-12 LEAF range and capacity are, IMO, of limited accuracy anyway.

 

[LEAFfan]

I'm sorry but anyone who plans to do this on more than a very occasional basis is a FOOL AND SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT! And I thought it was pretty clear by now that the 2013 does not offer any tangible increase in range.

If you can find a route to and from work on which you can maintain maintain a low speed over most of the commute, you should be able to drive 100+ miles five days a week. this Summer, if you want to. You'll probably have to drive a little slower than that to hit 120 miles (however much the 2013 range has been improved) though.

Sorry Tom, but that test is only valid for that speed (65mph?), not for 53-58mph. Mark and I have noticed a big increase in range at these speeds which can legally be driven on the freeways' right lanes.

 

[LEAFfan]

I test drove a 12 a month prior with a full charge at near freezing temperatures. As soon as I turned on the heat, the range dropped 12 miles.

I don't know if anybody has told you this yet, but if you are seriously making comparisons for RANGE based on the numerical value we call the Guess-O-Meter (GOM), let's just say that isn't wise.

The heater will be more efficient in the heat pump equipped car; of that, you can be sure. That doesn't INCREASE range... it merely decreases range less. Again, when I speak of range, I mean how far the car will drive in miles, not what the GOM says.

I can absolutely tell you that the 2013 DTE (GOM is gone!) is VERY accurate now. So is the SOC% on the dash. The DTE and SoC% almost match perfectly my BCM to where I really no longer need it except to measure any degradation that may occur later on.
I will soon do a test at those slower freeway speeds and see what m/kW h and actual miles I can obtain.

 

[TomT]

I'm sorry, but I can't see that the efficiency would be that dramatically different between 62 and 53-58 and my buddy's 2013 would appear to bear that out ...

Sorry Tom, but that test is only valid for that speed (65mph?), not for 53-58mph. Mark and I have noticed a big increase in range at these speeds which can legally be driven on the freeways' in the right lanes.

 

[Den]

Did you happen to look at the energy display to see how much energy the heater was using? Hoping someone out there with a '13 will chime in on how efficient the new heater really is.

Would be really interesting information...

I don't have a 11/12 to compare against but can share my observation.

I test drove a 12 a month prior with a full charge at near freezing temperatures. As soon as I turned on the heat, the range dropped 12 miles.

I've never seen my 2013 drop above 7 miles when turning on the climate.

Based on the car metrics, upon first starting the climate control, it consumes around 3kW before settling in between 1-1.5 to maintain cabin temperature.

Another interesting observation is that it blows hot air fairly quickly after activating the climate control. I would say between 15-30 seconds. I highly recommend the hybrid heater in seasonal climates.

Thanks for the info.

I have some data about MY2012.

Inside temp set to 20C at CC. Then:

Outside temp / consumption

-5C - 0C / 1-1,5kW
-10C / 2kW
-20C / 3kW

This is consumption what is needed to maintain cabin temperature (if you switch to ECO - this maintenance mode will be FORCED). If no maintenance is forced (ECO mode) then it usally takes 4-5kW of energy to quickly heat the cabin for maybe 10 minutes then slowly drops to maintenance consumption.

SO in you case what was the temperature outside and what was the setting for cabin temperature?

 

[edatoakrun]

I'm sorry but anyone who plans to do this on more than a very occasional basis is a FOOL AND SETTING THEMSELVES UP FOR FAILURE AND DISAPPOINTMENT! And I thought it was pretty clear by now that the 2013 does not offer any tangible increase in range.

If you can find a route to and from work on which you can maintain maintain a low speed over most of the commute, you should be able to drive 100+ miles five days a week. this Summer, if you want to. You'll probably have to drive a little slower than that to hit 120 miles (however much the 2013 range has been improved) though.

Sorry Tom, but that test is only valid for that speed (65mph?), not for 53-58mph. Mark and I have noticed a big increase in range at these speeds which can legally be driven on the freeways' in the right lanes.

Well, what range has anyone achieved in a '13, in a drive, from "100%" to LBW or VLBW, at what speed in that range, and at what temperature range?

And (as if I need to add it) please also post the CW results for total and regen kWh used for the trip, if you are capable.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I can absolutely tell you that the 2013 DTE (GOM is gone!) is VERY accurate now. So is the SOC% on the dash. The DTE and SoC% almost match perfectly my BCM to where I really no longer need it except to measure any degradation that may occur later on.
I will soon do a test at those slower freeway speeds and see what m/kW h and actual miles I can obtain.

Yes, I did notice that the GOM did quite well on the two drives that I made with a 2013, but that's not a "real" test when it's largely a level road at constant speed. I need to drive one from my house to 4000 foot elevation Julian and see what the GOM says then!!!

The SOC%, of course, will be great until degradation sets in, where it will still read 100% when the battery is 50% degraded. Also, it won't have any adjustment for temperature effects on the battery, but then, neither does the Gidmeter.

The new 2013 will show 100% regardless of capacity, when fully charged, and show the following:

kWh----------Gid----Gid%---Gid2%---2013 dash % (2013 dash % data based on SOC %, not Gids)

21.0--Full----281---100%---100%----100% (non-degraded at 70F; 21kWh usable)
10.5--Half----144--51.2%----50%----50% (non-degraded at 70F; 10.5kWh usable)
10.5--Full***--144--51.2%----50%----100% (***used 50% degraded at 70F; 10.5kWh usable)
3.2---LBW----49---17.4%---15.3%----17%
1.3---VLB----24----8.6%-----6.2%----8%
0.0---Turtle --7-----2.5%-----0%-----0%

NOTE: LBW and VLB are indexed to Gids, therefore those values won't match the SOC derived data of the 2013 dash % with a degraded battery.

Turtle is not indexed to Gids, therefore under a high load, like freeway speed, expect turtle at 7 or 8 Gids, and at extremely low power, as low as 4 Gids to Turtle.

 

[LEAFfan]

Yeah, LBW is still 17.4% (17% on the dash), VLBW is still 8.5% (8-9% on the dash), and Turtle is probably still 2.4% or 1.4% depending on speed. I will need my meter later when I begin to lose capacity.

 

[bobsfreeleaf]

I am reformatting my driving experience into a table, for ease of use. I have also written a "simple" formula to determine implied MAXIMUM driving range (to zero charge). It is basically miles driven divided by state of charge change between the beginning and end of the drive (charge expended if you will). You should knock off 10 to 20 miles of range for many reasons noted on this board. If you are in a high heat or freezing cold region, do not use this table. This information is for San Diego with a brand new battery and an S model 2013 Leaf, relatively flat drive about 2/3 freeway, 1/3 street. I will note when I am not in ECO mode. I drive the fwy at 65-70 most days. This drive is indicated by "Comm." My drive around town running errands is indicated by "Errand". Hope this will be useful in your buying decisions.

Drive #	Tempera	Drive sty/Frwy mph	Bars start	Bars end	SOC start	SOC end	Mi. drvn	Imp Rng	Avg speed	M/KWH	note
Comm. No. 1.	50’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	90% beg;	35% end	43 miles	78 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	Part rain/heat
Comm. No. 2.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	12 bars	7 bars at end	100% beg	54% end	43 miles	93 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	
Comm. No. 3.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	12 bars	5 bars at end	100% beg	40% end	54 miles	90 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	
Comm. No. 4.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 72	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	29% end	61 miles	86 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	Drove the fast lane
Comm. No. 5.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	91% beg;	33% end	51 miles	88 miles	31 mph	4.3	
Comm. No. 6.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 67	12 bars	4 bars at end	98% beg;	38% end	59 miles	 98 miles	26 mph	4.4	
Comm. No. 7.	60’s/78dg	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	97% beg;	30% end	60 miles	 90 miles	27 mph	4.3	Used 10 min A/C
Comm. No. 8.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	31% end	60 miles	 87 miles	26 mph	4.3	
											
Errand No 1.	70’s/80’s	Eco/Air/no Freewy	11 bars	7 bars at end	95% beg	62% end	25 mi	 74 miles	21 mph	4.4;	Hot day / used air
1st leg:Comm.6	60’s/60’s	Eco/no Freewy	12 bars	11 bars at end	98% beg	87% end	14 miles	 127 miles	xxxxxx	5.1;	Some down hill

 

[TonyWilliams]

Errand No 1.	70’s/80’s	Eco/Air/no Freewy	11 bars	7 bars at end	95% beg	62% end	25 mi	 74 miles	21 mph	4.4;	Hot day / used air
1st leg:Comm.6	60’s/60’s	Eco/no Freewy	12 bars	11 bars at end	98% beg	87% end	14 miles	 127 miles	xxxxxx	5.1;	Some down hill

My hopes of a GOM that might be accurate in anything except flat terrain is dashed! If I'm reading your table correctly, you got values of 74 miles one day, and 127 miles the next. I sincerely hope Nissan gets away from this nutty GOM concept and adopts something more like what GM does with the Volt, or the Rav4, or the rated range / predicted range of a Tesla (my personal favorite).

Also, you started recording economy which will really help you understand how far the car will really go. On your hot day with air conditioning above, at 4.4 miles/kWh (I hope you are resetting each full charge), your LEAF will go about 4.4 * 21 = 94.2 miles with a new battery on a nice warm 70/80F degree day. You used 1/3 of the battery (95%-62%=33%), so about 7kWh to go 25 miles. Unfortunately, this is not very close to the 4.4 economy reported (25/7=3.57). Something doesn't add up.

 

[wwhitney]

My hopes of a GOM that might be accurate in anything except flat terrain is dashed! If I'm reading your table correctly, you got values of 74 miles one day, and 127 miles the next.

My understanding of the table is that those are values he computed himself, not values on the GOM.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[dgpcolorado]

I can absolutely tell you that the 2013 DTE (GOM is gone!) is VERY accurate now. So is the SOC% on the dash. The DTE and SoC% almost match perfectly my BCM to where I really no longer need it except to measure any degradation that may occur later on.
I will soon do a test at those slower freeway speeds and see what m/kW h and actual miles I can obtain.

How about driving to Prescott, or some other place quite a bit higher than Phoenix, to see how the new "DTE" reacts to hills?

 

[LEAFfan]

I can absolutely tell you that the 2013 DTE (GOM is gone!) is VERY accurate now. So is the SOC% on the dash. The DTE and SoC% almost match perfectly my BCM to where I really no longer need it except to measure any degradation that may occur later on.
I will soon do a test at those slower freeway speeds and see what m/kW h and actual miles I can obtain.

How about driving to Prescott, or some other place quite a bit higher than Phoenix, to see how the new "DTE" reacts to hills?

It works really well here with no more than a gradual 1000ft. elevation change, but Tony is probably correct that it won't be accurate with major elevation changes.

 

[bobsfreeleaf]

Errand No 1.	70’s/80’s	Eco/Air/no Freewy	11 bars	7 bars at end	95% beg	62% end	25 mi	 74 miles	21 mph	4.4;	Hot day / used air
1st leg:Comm.6	60’s/60’s	Eco/no Freewy	12 bars	11 bars at end	98% beg	87% end	14 miles	 127 miles	xxxxxx	5.1;	Some down hill

My hopes of a GOM that might be accurate in anything except flat terrain is dashed! If I'm reading your table correctly, you got values of 74 miles one day, and 127 miles the next. I sincerely hope Nissan gets away from this nutty GOM concept and adopts something more like what GM does with the Volt, or the Rav4, or the rated range / predicted range of a Tesla (my personal favorite).

Also, you started recording economy which will really help you understand how far the car will really go. On your hot day with air conditioning above, at 4.4 miles/kWh (I hope you are resetting each full charge), your LEAF will go about 4.4 * 21 = 94.2 miles with a new battery on a nice warm 70/80F degree day. You used 1/3 of the battery (95%-62%=33%), so about 7kWh to go 25 miles. Unfortunately, this is not very close to the 4.4 economy reported (25/7=3.57). Something doesn't add up.

Hi Tony: It is entirely possible I forgot to clear the the M/KW. I will strike that one, and attempt something similar this weekend. Thx, Bob

 

[bobsfreeleaf]

I am reformatting my driving experience into a table, for ease of use. I have also written a "simple" formula to determine implied MAXIMUM driving range (to zero charge). It is basically miles driven divided by state of charge change between the beginning and end of the drive (charge expended if you will). You should knock off 10 to 20 miles of range for many reasons noted on this board. If you are in a high heat or freezing cold region, do not use this table. This information is for San Diego with a brand new battery and an S model 2013 Leaf, relatively flat drive about 2/3 freeway, 1/3 street. I will note when I am not in ECO mode. I drive the fwy at 65-70 most days. This drive is indicated by "Comm." My drive around town running errands is indicated by "Errand". Hope this will be useful in your buying decisions. I have removed my avg drive speed because I realized the only thing it is measuring is how long I spend in the Mc Donalds drive through.

Drive #	Tempera	Drive sty/Frwy mph	Bars start	Bars end	SOC start	SOC end	Mi. drvn	Imp Rng	M/KWH	note
Comm. No. 1.	50’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	90% beg;	35% end	43 miles	78 miles	xxx	Part rain/heat
Comm. No. 2.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	12 bars	7 bars at end	100% beg	54% end	43 miles	93 miles	xxx	
Comm. No. 3.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 65	12 bars	5 bars at end	100% beg	40% end	54 miles	90 miles	xxx	
Comm. No. 4.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 72	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	29% end	61 miles	86 miles	xxx	Drove the fast lane
Comm. No. 5.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	91% beg;	33% end	51 miles	88 miles	4.3	
Comm. No. 6.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 67	12 bars	4 bars at end	98% beg;	38% end	59 miles	 98 miles	4.4	
Comm. No. 7.	60’s/78dg	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	97% beg;	30% end	60 miles	 90 miles	4.3	Used 10 min A/C
Comm. No. 8.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	31% end	60 miles	 87 miles	4.3	
										
1st leg:Comm.6	60’s/60’s	Eco/no Freewy	12 bars	11 bars at end	98% beg	87% end	14 mi	 127 miles	5.1;	Some down hill
Errand No 1a	60’s to 70	Eco/Air/no Frwy	10 bars	3 bars at end	79% beg	23% end	45 mi	 80 miles	4.4;	Used air

quote]

 

[DaveEV]

Drive #	Tempera	Drive sty/Frwy mph	Bars start	Bars end	SOC start	SOC end	Mi. drvn	Imp Rng	Avg speed	M/KWH	note
Comm. No. 4.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 72	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	29% end	61 miles	86 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	Drove the fast lane
Comm. No. 5.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	91% beg;	33% end	51 miles	88 miles	31 mph	4.3	
Comm. No. 6.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 67	12 bars	4 bars at end	98% beg;	38% end	59 miles	 98 miles	26 mph	4.4	
Comm. No. 7.	60’s/78dg	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	97% beg;	30% end	60 miles	 90 miles	27 mph	4.3	Used 10 min A/C
Comm. No. 8.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	31% end	60 miles	 87 miles	26 mph	4.3

I am very jealous of your freeway range - I drove 59 miles on the 10th at 4.1 mi/kWh (freeway speeds mostly 65 mph) with a bit of surface street driving and got home with 1 bar 8 GOM miles remaining - not far from LBW.

Does the '13 still give you LBW when the last bar is about to go away?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Drive #	Tempera	Drive sty/Frwy mph	Bars start	Bars end	SOC start	SOC end	Mi. drvn	Imp Rng	Avg speed	M/KWH	note
Comm. No. 4.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 72	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	29% end	61 miles	86 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	Drove the fast lane
Comm. No. 5.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	91% beg;	33% end	51 miles	88 miles	31 mph	4.3	
Comm. No. 6.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 67	12 bars	4 bars at end	98% beg;	38% end	59 miles	 98 miles	26 mph	4.4	
Comm. No. 7.	60’s/78dg	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	97% beg;	30% end	60 miles	 90 miles	27 mph	4.3	Used 10 min A/C
Comm. No. 8.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	31% end	60 miles	 87 miles	26 mph	4.3

I am very jealous of your freeway range - I drove 59 miles on the 10th at 4.1 mi/kWh (freeway speeds mostly 65 mph) with a bit of surface street driving and got home with 1 bar 8 GOM miles remaining - not far from LBW.

Does the '13 still give you LBW when the last bar is about to go away?

sounds like your range is ok. about the same as mine (albeit mine is in colder weather). slow it down, gain another 7-8 miles

 

[DaveEV]

sounds like your range is ok. about the same as mine (albeit mine is in colder weather). slow it down, gain another 7-8 miles

Yeah, it's "OK" for a 21 month / 17k mi LEAF in southern California, but it's still ~10% or nearly 10 miles down from a new LEAF. At least from this point on capacity should stabilize - seat-of-the-pants meter says it's been pretty stable since last fall.

 

[LEAFfan]

Drive #	Tempera	Drive sty/Frwy mph	Bars start	Bars end	SOC start	SOC end	Mi. drvn	Imp Rng	Avg speed	M/KWH	note
Comm. No. 4.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 72	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	29% end	61 miles	86 miles	xxxxxx	xxx	Drove the fast lane
Comm. No. 5.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 65	11 bars	4 bars at end	91% beg;	33% end	51 miles	88 miles	31 mph	4.3	
Comm. No. 6.	60’s/60’s	Eco/Freewy 67	12 bars	4 bars at end	98% beg;	38% end	59 miles	 98 miles	26 mph	4.4	
Comm. No. 7.	60’s/78dg	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	97% beg;	30% end	60 miles	 90 miles	27 mph	4.3	Used 10 min A/C
Comm. No. 8.	60’s/70’s	Eco/Freewy 70	12 bars	4 bars at end	100% beg	31% end	60 miles	 87 miles	26 mph	4.3

I am very jealous of your freeway range - I drove 59 miles on the 10th at 4.1 mi/kWh (freeway speeds mostly 65 mph) with a bit of surface street driving and got home with 1 bar 8 GOM miles remaining - not far from LBW
Does the '13 still give you LBW when the last bar is about to go away

No, there are two bars left at LBW with 17% SoC on the dash. I've had 9 to 11 miles left on the DTE/9% SoC dash when --- appears at VLBW.

 

[MarvGordon]

For what it's worth.... Not very scientific but at least in cold weather.

2 trips in my 2013 SL. Both started at 80% charge.

46 Miles at 20F, seat heaters on ~50% of the time, 2 occupants (front seats). About 15% of the time the heater turned on. 90% of the trip at avg 55MPH speed. 20% charge remaining.
37 miles at 7F, Heater on the whole time, Seat heaters on about 20% of the time. Radio on, lights on. 70% at 55MPH, rest at about 30MPH. Trip ended at 22% charge.