Why would anyone buy a nissan leaf right now???

[DougWantsALeaf]

Insideevs picked up the sales pop on the Leaf.

https://insideevs.com/news/517816/us-nissan-leaf-sales-2021q2/

If you go with 16" light wheels, you range pops 10% and have even fewer battery heat issues.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Actually let me see if I can answer this question from a couple directions. I just leased a 2021 Leaf SL Plus yesterday.
So why did I do this on June 30th when the 2022's are coming out soon? Why would I do this knowing the Arriya (sp?) is due soon?
Why would I do this when there is an incredible shortage of vehicles?
Well I was driving a '19 Frontier. I'm not wealthy. I just bought it a year ago and had equity in my last vehicle. Trucks are worth a mint right now and its equity would cover the down money on a lease. I just realized that it was costing me a fortune to drive it and I wasn't driving it as a truck just as a commuter.
As gas gets more expensive this is a realization more people are having. It happened to me after I did a fueleconomy.gov compare with my family fleet. When you see "You will spend $5000 in gas over five years". It makes you think about you drive. I'm an IT guy. So an EV has been on my mind for awhile but this isn't a new car intro. Let me stay on point.
So as gas gets more expensive once again this is going to draw more over again to hybrid/EV's. Since range anxiety is less of an issue once you break two hundred miles and especially two fifty. The Leaf Plus looks viable. I was in the market for a Bolt because it had a huge lease deal on the 2020. They are becoming really rare. Sure I could have gone to Hyundai with the Kona or Ioniq for the same price but they are far less known. I went with what was known.
So lets get to the next Leaf point "Why Leaf and not wait for the Arriya". Big one is price there. The Arriya looks like it will be more expensive. Also the Leaf has a reputation outside of people who have owned them. Sure when people think EV they might think Tesla but that has it's own issues. If you want reliability and dealerships there is really one answer. That's the Leaf. It's been around for a long time and I've never heard anyone complain about anything but range. Which is far less of an issue with the Plus.
Also with the big discounts the Leaf's go from being affordable to downright really affordable.
You know unless your dealership only has a really nice looking red SL Plus on the lot and you get all caught up in it. In which case you go from buying base everything to a model with every option you will never use because it eats up battery but again. Not a part of this thread.
Does that help?

without a location, its hard to comment but you say Hyundai's and Kia's are available so that narrows it down. Did you actually check on them? Because they were (and likely still are) more expensive than a LEAF. There are some hotspots like the East Coast and California where deals of all kinds are flying around but every time I start looking around, the LEAF comes in cheaper and not by an insignificant amount.

Granted, part of it was just bad timing. I missed the prime Bolt offers by 3 weeks in 2018 (unexpected change in circumstance) Now Bolts are going for a great price but Nissan discounts makes the differences minimal.

 

[Fodder650]

No I didn't check on the Hyundai availability. I checked on Bolt availability. I am in central Pennsylvania. Cost wise the Leaf is cheaper but it also comes down to availability. I jumped quicker than I should though which is why I ended up with a higher level Leaf than I wanted. I wanted the S Plus and got the SL Plus.

 

[oxothuk]

SSure when people think EV they might think Tesla but that has it's own issues. If you want reliability and dealerships there is really one answer. That's the Leaf. It's been around for a long time and I've never heard anyone complain about anything but range. Which is far less of an issue with the Plus.
Also with the big discounts the Leaf's go from being affordable to downright really affordable.

Well, the other complaint you hear about the Leaf is the lack of thermal management. But if you have another car for road-tripping and don't live in Arizona that really isn't an issue.

The combination of Nissan discounts and tax incentives make the Leaf very affordable, as you say. That's certainly what clinched the deal for me.

 

[SageBrush]

Well, the other complaint you hear about the Leaf is the lack of thermal management. But if you have another car for road-tripping and don't live in Arizona that really isn't an issue.

The hottest parts of AZ are the most problematic for the LEAF but way too fast battery degradation extends to a large swath of the country.

 

[LeftieBiker]

The hottest parts of AZ are the most problematic for the LEAF but way too fast battery degradation extends to a large swath of the country.

For older Leafs, yes. For the 2018+ Leafs, no, not at this point. We're still waiting for the first confirmed bar loss on a 2018 Leaf.

 

[oxothuk]

We're still waiting for the first confirmed bar loss on a 2018 Leaf.

And even when that happens, the car will still have a lot more range than a pre-2018 Leaf.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Very good point.

 

[WetEV]

The hottest parts of AZ are the most problematic for the LEAF but way too fast battery degradation extends to a large swath of the country.

Next generation batteries (2025 or so) are likely to have very good life without TMS even in Death Valley. Solid electrolyte, higher energy density. Lots of reasons to keep water out of the battery case.

 

[Fodder650]

SSure when people think EV they might think Tesla but that has it's own issues. If you want reliability and dealerships there is really one answer. That's the Leaf. It's been around for a long time and I've never heard anyone complain about anything but range. Which is far less of an issue with the Plus.
Also with the big discounts the Leaf's go from being affordable to downright really affordable.

Well, the other complaint you hear about the Leaf is the lack of thermal management. But if you have another car for road-tripping and don't live in Arizona that really isn't an issue.

The combination of Nissan discounts and tax incentives make the Leaf very affordable, as you say. That's certainly what clinched the deal for me.

Thermal management is on my mind because the Leaf has air cooled batteries. This is less of an issue for me because of where I live but this year this is more of an issue no matter where you live. I did note the battery warmer bit in the manual in case of another winter like we had with the months long polar vortexs.

 

[SageBrush]

The hottest parts of AZ are the most problematic for the LEAF but way too fast battery degradation extends to a large swath of the country.

Next generation batteries (2025 or so) are likely to have very good life without TMS even in Death Valley. Solid electrolyte, higher energy density. Lots of reasons to keep water out of the battery case.

Attractive vision, but I'll believe it when it is in mass production at a competitive price, and retains 80%+ of new capacity at 15 years. The truly difficult aspect of competing with water cooled, liquid electrolyte Li-x battery is that they have had a tremendous tech and price curve that has not shown evidence of slowing down. It is a quintessential moving target.

Hydrogen might be a parallel example. It has a couple of inherent advantages (along with a couple basic disadvantages) but what really stuck a fork into it was was the price curve of Li-x in the volume markets of energy storage and EVs.

If SS cannot compete on price, it will have to find a performance niche to get a foothold. Perhaps airplanes ? I really am not sure.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

SSure when people think EV they might think Tesla but that has it's own issues. If you want reliability and dealerships there is really one answer. That's the Leaf. It's been around for a long time and I've never heard anyone complain about anything but range. Which is far less of an issue with the Plus.
Also with the big discounts the Leaf's go from being affordable to downright really affordable.

Well, the other complaint you hear about the Leaf is the lack of thermal management. But if you have another car for road-tripping and don't live in Arizona that really isn't an issue.

The combination of Nissan discounts and tax incentives make the Leaf very affordable, as you say. That's certainly what clinched the deal for me.

Thermal management is on my mind because the Leaf has air cooled batteries. This is less of an issue for me because of where I live but this year this is more of an issue no matter where you live. I did note the battery warmer bit in the manual in case of another winter like we had with the months long polar vortexs.

First off, we need to correct a major error here. The LEAF does NOT have air cooled batteries. The Soul EV has air cooled batteries. There is no cooling of any kind that has been proven or shown on the LEAF. If you have to call it something, then maybe "ambient cooling" should be used.

 

[WetEV]

The hottest parts of AZ are the most problematic for the LEAF but way too fast battery degradation extends to a large swath of the country.

Next generation batteries (2025 or so) are likely to have very good life without TMS even in Death Valley. Solid electrolyte, higher energy density. Lots of reasons to keep water out of the battery case.

Attractive vision, but I'll believe it when it is in mass production at a competitive price, and retains 80%+ of new capacity at 15 years. The truly difficult aspect of competing with water cooled, liquid electrolyte Li-x battery is that they have had a tremendous tech and price curve that has not shown evidence of slowing down. It is a quintessential moving target.

Solid electrolyte batteries should be cheaper to manufacture. Fewer manufacturing steps. Higher yield. Three different formulations are competing. Prototypes are available now.

As for high temperature, specifications of smaller (4mm x 3mm x 1mm) solid electrolyte batteries show that they can be reflow soldered at up to 260C. 500F.

 

[lorenfb]

Well, the other complaint you hear about the Leaf is the lack of thermal management. But if you have another car for road-tripping and don't live in Arizona that really isn't an issue.

The combination of Nissan discounts and tax incentives make the Leaf very affordable, as you say. That's certainly what clinched the deal for me.

Thermal management is on my mind because the Leaf has air cooled batteries. This is less of an issue for me because of where I live but this year this is more of an issue no matter where you live. I did note the battery warmer bit in the manual in case of another winter like we had with the months long polar vortexs.

First off, we need to correct a major error here. The LEAF does NOT have air cooled batteries. The Soul EV has air cooled batteries. There is no cooling of any kind that has been proven or shown on the LEAF. If you have to call it something, then maybe "ambient cooling" should be used.

Excellent clarification!

 

[TomT]

And one of the many reasons why I would never buy a Leaf. No TMS, no sale!

First off, we need to correct a major error here. The LEAF does NOT have air cooled batteries. The Soul EV has air cooled batteries. There is no cooling of any kind that has been proven or shown on the LEAF. If you have to call it something, then maybe "ambient cooling" should be used.

 

[oxothuk]

And one of the many reasons why I would never buy a Leaf. No TMS, no sale!

So what was your experience with your early Leaf, and where did you live at the time?

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
IIRC, he lived somewhere in So Cal and lost his 4th bar very close to 60K miles: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19739&start=10 and https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=424426#p424426.

 

[GerryAZ]

I would say the LEAF battery has passive cooling. No energy is wasted running a battery refrigeration system and there is no liquid circulating in the battery compartment so no risk of internal coolant leakage. If something bad happened to my present LEAF, I would purchase a new one, but I intend to keep the 2019 Plus for a long time. If your usage requires multiple quick charges per day (or even just 1 QC every day in hot weather), then you should choose an EV with a battery refrigeration system.

My experience with the 62 kWh battery is that it takes two or three days in hot weather (with normal driving of 50 to 75 miles each day along with one or two L2 charging sessions during that time) for the battery temperature to get back down to its prior temperature after a quick charge from deeply discharged to nearly full charge. Obviously, it would cool down faster if not driven as much as I normally drive each day. The 24 kWh batteries would heat up faster during QC and cool down faster afterward because they have less thermal mass. I prefer the passively-cooled LEAF battery because my use pattern does not require frequent quick charging so I saved the cost of TMS when I purchased each LEAF and I saved the cost of wasted electricity during all of the L2 charge cycles at home over the past 10 years.

 

[SageBrush]

^^^
IIRC, he lived somewhere in So Cal and lost his 4th bar very close to 60K miles: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19739&start=10 and https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=424426#p424426.

He was certainly disillusioned by the degradation. He dumped the car 6 -9 months after battery replacement. The part of his story I find interesting (and not clear to me) are that his posts sounded like a lease return but his Sig says he drove the car from 2011 to 2016.

Was a 5 year lease a thing back then ? If so then his story parses out to having a lease on favorable terms, and presumably ** a high buy-out price he did not want given his original battery degradation to 8 bars in 5 years.

** I have read a lot of stories here from people unable to negotiate the buy-out price with Nissan at lease end but I don't know it that was true for TomT. Or if he even tried.

 

[GerryAZ]

I know that 3-year leases were being pushed by dealers back then (perhaps 5-year leases or 2-year extensions were offered in California). I did not consider leasing because the residual and payments were both high, I put way too many miles per year on my daily driver, and I did not want the risk of Nissan doing what GM did to the EV1. I paid cash so I had a clear title and the car was mine in case there was any attempt to remove them from the road.